Music theory hurts my brain, so I try to keep it simple.

Keep separate between how the notes are laid out on the fretboard, whole and half steps...and...the "order of sharps", which has more to do with key signatures. 

I hope I get this next part right.  A lot of 5 string banjo music is written in the key of G.  It has one sharp.  The notes are ABCDEF#G.  As you play down the scale, you will notice that you have to skip a fret between the E and F#.  That's were the E sharp/F resides.  

Here is how the scale in the key of C major (no sharps or flats) lays out on the fretboard:  A  BC  D  EF  G   (the spaces are the frets you "skip")

Now, the scale pattern in the key of G  major (one sharp) is A  BC  D  E   F#G.  

As I understand it, Cb/B# and Fb/E# exist, but only used by composers when otherwise there would be confusion due to the key the piece is in. There are also double sharps and double flats, just to muddy the waters a bit more. Only serious composers care about this. Even the most deadly serious banjo players don't know or care, or need to!

My examples assume your banjo is in G tuning. Keys, tuning...that's why my head hurts.

Music Theory convention says you can use each letter of the alphabet only once in a given scale.

When you start working your way thru all 12 notes, eventually you get to oddities like F#maj and C#maj, which, in order to satisfy the "use each letter one time" rule, you have to use B# and E# to describe the scales. As you progress thru the sharp scales, you'll use more double-sharps. The same happens for flat keys. Gb contains a Cb and Cb contains both a Cb and an Fb.

Go here: Interactive Circle of Fifths and you can see it in action.

We used to visit Gloucester regularly back in the 80s and 90s. Miz Diane's mother was born there and her sister had a nice house on Grapevine near Bass Rocks. Best lobster rolls on the planet!

Mostly it only matters in relation to music written in standard notation. Take the key of G. It has a key signature of one sharp - F#. It could be expressed as Gb but then every time you wrote a G note you would have to put a natural sign in front of it. You would be constantly switching back and forth between G natural and G flat. It looks messy and it’s hard to read. You don’t have that problem with F# because the scale of G major does not contain an F note, so no switching back and forth. This will make sense after you think about it for a while. The basic rule is you don’t want to have two notes in the scale with the same name - two G’s in this case.

And just to add, for my own edification, there can be a B# and an E#, even together in the key of B# for example. The notes are AB#CDE#FG and lays out like this on the fretboard: AB# C DE# F G. **Head explodes**

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

Music Theory convention says you can use each letter of the alphabet only once in a given scale.

When you start working your way thru all 12 notes, eventually you get to oddities like F#maj and C#maj, which, in order to satisfy the "use each letter one time" rule, you have to use B# and E# to describe the scales. As you progress thru the sharp scales, you'll use more double-sharps. The same happens for flat keys. Gb contains a Cb and Cb contains both a Cb and an Fb.

Go here: Interactive Circle of Fifths and you can see it in action.

We used to visit Gloucester regularly back in the 80s and 90s. Miz Diane's mother was born there and her sister had a nice house on Grapevine near Bass Rocks. Best lobster rolls on the planet!

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I grew up near Bass Rocks...right down the road from where I lived. We still have great lobster rolls, but they will cost you an arm and a leg especially during tourist season.

Thanks everyone. Music Theory makes my head hurt too, and I think a lot of it is unnecessary. I came to the banjo with absolutely no background in music. It took me quite a long time to understand that a bar and a measure are the same thing or you have to move you hand down the fret to move up the neck,..or is it vise versa :) And, why is the first string at the bottom when you look at it, but on the top of the tab. It all makes no sense to me at all, but I do enjoy playing the banjo.

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Originally posted by pmartin9363

And, why is the first string at the bottom when you look at it, but on the top of the tab. It all makes no sense to me at all, but I do enjoy playing the banjo.

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Because just as music is written with the lines representing low to high notes, the lines in tablature represent low to high strings.

Yes, the banjo's fifth string is the highest open note. Doesn't change anything. 5th string is just the oddball. The four full-length strings on 5-string banjo are low to high. So banjo tablature is low to high same as other instruments.

To visualize it, imagine a peghead coming off the left end of the tab with the top of the peghead pointing left (same way it points if you're a right-handed player). The lines represent the strings.

Still don't see it? Try this: Roll 5-3-1 / T-I-M on the banjo. Then roll  T-I-M on a tabletop or in the air with your hand off the banjo parallel to the floor.   Then roll T-I-M on a page or screen displaying a staff of tab.  How does the direction of T-I-M rolling imaginary 5-3-1 compare to the lines of the tab?

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Originally posted by pmartin9363

...you have to move you hand down the fret to move up the neck,..or is it vise versa :) 

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Same as my description of low-to-high lines in tab representing low to high strings, "up" and "down" the neck refer to pitch (up the neck the notes get higher). Up and down could also be understood to refer to fret numbers. Open - zero - is the lowest note on any string. 22nd fret is the highest.

Then again, tuners are on the peghead or headstock. And we definitely understand the peghead to be the top of the neck and tops are usually up.

Maybe you're over thinking the problem. Unless you're playing classical music, you'll seldom need those weird sharps/flats. Concentrate on the major scale notes and their #/b and forget about the rest. As you get more experience playing you may wish to work on more difficult songs, but until then, relax, enjoy the easier songs and don't get headaches (G),

I like to play Home Sweet Home in the key of B# major, in C tuning without capo.

I had never encountered this notion of "The Order Of Sharps", so I did a Google search and discovered the web site associated with the link below.  According to that site, there's also "The Order Of Flats".

The Order Of Sharps

The question I have, is what is the purpose or benefit of knowing or understanding this?

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Originally posted by RB3

I had never encountered this notion of "The Order Of Sharps", so I did a Google search and discovered the web site associated with the link below.  According to that site, there's also "The Order Of Flats".

The Order Of Sharps

The question I have, is what is the purpose or benefit of knowing or understanding this?

 

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The author also gives a list of th flats.  I do not know if thereis a  purpose of understanding it, The reason that i am asking and brought if up is that I wanted to understand why I am learning that B and E have no sharps, but in the Order of Sharps there are B# and E# listed. Just a bit frustrated at trying to learn more about music theory.

When I was taking piano lessons many years ago, one of our "exercises" was to learn all the major scales and keys and know how many sharps/flats were in each. It's fairly easy to figure out on a piano, not so easy on a banjo. I can still recite all that nonsense, but have never had a reason to use it when playing any stringed instrument.

If you really want to get into music theory, go to your local college/university book store and get a book on beginning music theory. It will go into infinite detail on scales both major and minor, how a scale is crafted and why. I've been there, done that, and never needed to use it.

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Originally posted by RB3

I had never encountered this notion of "The Order Of Sharps", so I did a Google search and discovered the web site associated with the link below.  According to that site, there's also "The Order Of Flats".

The Order Of Sharps

The question I have, is what is the purpose or benefit of knowing or understanding this?

 

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As you go from one key to another around the circle of 5ths, each key has one more sharp in it (or, if you're going in the other direction, one more flat) than the previous one.

The C major scale has no sharp or flat notes.

The G major scale has one sharp notes--F#.

The D major scale has two sharp notes--F# and C#.

The A major scale has three sharp notes--F#, C#, and G#.

See the pattern? (I hope so; I'm too lazy to go through all twelve keys.) And note that which notes are sharped in each key also goes by the circle of fifths: F, then C, then, G, etc.

The purpose or benefit? For me it's just baked into my understanding of how music works. It helps me find chords, choose where I go when soloing, learn new material, arrange vocal harmonies, and--well, everything, I guess.

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Originally posted by RB3

..."The Order Of Sharps" ... "The Order Of Flats"... The question I have, is what is the purpose or benefit of knowing or understanding this?

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For a lot players there may be no benefit. They apply the rule of theory that trumps all other rules: If it sounds good, it is good.  Don't need to understand why.

For some players the benefit may be in unraveling a few mysteries of music to reveal there are reasons that certain things are done -- even if the person can't always apply those reasons. I count myself among those. 

But as Ira shows us, for musicians who can read music or who use their knowledge of scales when improvising, or for composers who definitely use their knowledge of scales when writing, there can be benefit in knowing not only (1) which keys have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 sharps or flats (so, for example, a reading player can know at a glance the key of a written piece) but also (2) the order in which the sharped or flatted notes are added.

On point 2, the addition of sharps or flats is not random. Ira showed this, but I'm going to amplify it in case it wasn't obvious. Hope I don't beat it to death.

Sharps and flats (the black keys on the piano plus the theoretical E# and B#) are added in a specific singular sequence to create Major (and minor) scales and their Key Signatures. Each key with one more sharp is the fifth of the one before it. The Cycle of Fifths! Each key with one more flat is the fourth of the one before. Also shown in the Cycle of Fifths. 

Let me emphasize the word "singular" that I used above. There are five black keys on the piano for the "real" sharp notes: C#, D#, F#, G#, A#.  But only one of these five notes appears in a Major scale that uses only one sharp. That would be F# in the key G Major.  There is no Major key using any of the other sharp notes as the only sharp note/black in its scale. F# is the only sharp note that appears in a Major key using only one sharp note.

This singularity applies to each addition of a sharp note/black key.  There is only one Major key signature using only two sharps (D Major) and (following the Order of Sharps) the only two sharps in a key signature that uses only two sharps will be F# and C#. There is only one combination of three sharps that will be used in a key signature of three sharps, only one combination of four, and so on through the Order of Sharps.

Singularity applies to flats as well. Remember each black key has a flat name. One flat is the key signature for F Major. It is the only Major key with only one flat. And B-flat is the only flat that will be in a Major key that has only one flat. Hence, B-flat's position as 1 in the Order of Flats. And so it goes as flats are added following the Order of Flats. Same as with sharps. Singularity.

I don't understand this stuff anywhere near well enough to make extensive use of it on the fly.   But I'm aware that many musicians can. For me, the main benefit is remembering to use F and not F# when I'm improvising melodically in C or to use C# as well as F# for D. It also helps when I'm working stuff out without the real-time pressure of performance. 

While I am conscious of these theory points, when playing its more about the patterns for each scale, where the root note is, the chords of the song and where the melody goes. Once armed with this, coupled with ear training, I would think the average banjo player is well ahead of the comp.

One of my favorite mnemonics (order of flats):

Bad Eggs And Dry Guacamole Causes Farts.

The order of sharps:

Fat Cats Go Down And Eat Birds.

Note that they mirror one another...

When you work from notation, like orchestra folk do, knowing these things help. All these nuances are like grammar, punctuation and diacritical marks to those who read aloud.

We 5-string banjo players can, with the use of the capo, get by without much knowledge of music theory.

If it hurts your brain, don't lose any sleep over it. We didn't make the rules. Lester & Earl were unable to correctly decipher the mathematics of it but, that didn't hold themthem back one bit.

Like Pete Seeger said, it's  banjo, just play the damn thing. LOL

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

One of my favorite mnemonics (order of flats):

Bad Eggs And Dry Guacamole Causes Farts.

The order of sharps:

Fat Cats Go Down And Eat Birds.

Note that they mirror one another...

When you work from notation, like orchestra folk do, knowing these things help. All these nuances are like grammar, punctuation and diacritical marks to those who read aloud.

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Back around grade 3 or 4 we had a class called Sight Singing, I won't say I learned sight singing just that I had the class. I do remember Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle, also saying it in reverse to remember the sharps and flats. I didn't understand it but I did understand FACE and Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge. Thus when I tried to learn guitar at age 12 or 13 from notation, the songs sounded wrong and I quit. 

I was much happier taking up banjo at age 21.

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

The order of sharps:

Fat Cats Go Down And Eat Birds.

 

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I learned "Fast Cars Go Down An Empty Boulevard".  To me that's poetry. I picture bulbous sedans racing through a light rain in a gritty urban landscape around 1950 or so, like a scene from some film noir.

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Originally posted by pmartin9363

 The reason that i am asking and brought if up is that I wanted to understand why I am learning that B and E have no sharps, but in the Order of Sharps there are B# and E# listed. Just a bit frustrated at trying to learn more about music theory.

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I'm also a music theory noob, so please call me out if I'm way wrong.  My understanding is this:

Our musical notation is based around C major (or A minor)

The notes of C major were named: CDEFGAB

However a major scale isn't evenly spaced. Some notes are closer together than others.

The major scale steps go: whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step:

C (whole) D (whole) E (half) F (whole) G (whole) A (whole) B (half) C

Being that there's a whole step between C and D, we can put a note in between and call it C# or Db.

Being that there's only a half-step between E and F, there's no room for a traditional note to fit in there.

Ok, so where do B sharp and E sharp come from?  Well, let's see what happens if we use the above whole/half pattern to write out the scale of C# Major:

C# (whole) D# (whole) F (half) F# (whole) G# (whole) A# (whole) C (half) C#

We now have a scale with Two F notes and two C notes.  I guess we could learn to live with it, but people decided that was too confusing.  So instead we do this:

C# (whole) D# (whole) E# (half) F# (whole) G# (whole) A# (whole) B# (half) C#

So now if someone says 'the melody starts on the F' you don't have to ask 'which F?"

Similarly, if you use  the whole/half pattern for minor scales, and try to write out G-flat minor, you'll end up with a need for B and E double-flat to avoid repeating letters.  This is left as an exercise for the reader :)

edit: it ate my notation, retrying.

edit2: seriously though, writing out all the major/minor scales this way can help one grasp how this all works.

The reason for these kind of musical conventions is so that the key signature at the beginning of each line of sheet notation can rule, thereby providing the least amount of accidentals thru out the whole composition.

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Originally posted by pmartin9363

I am tying to learn music theory, which I have done many times, but always seem to give up in frustration. That said, I hope I am explaining my confusions in a manner that others can understand.

So, today I again tried to beef up my understanding and once again I am just stumped. I am using Rick McKeon's Basic Music Theory for Banjo Players and I do not understand if B and E do not have sharps why are they are listed in the Order of Sharps, which he notes as F# C# G# D# A# E# B#

And another thing that I do not understand about Sharps and Flats is if a sharp of one note is the the same as the flat of the note down from it (I hope I am explaining this correctly) then why, if B and E sharps do not exist, do C and F flats exist.

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Notes are represented by only seven letter names ascending A-G, and repeat; representing seven note scale. Each single letter can be only one version in a given key, - natural or sharp or flat.

I becomes apparent why when play scales of keys as you go around the circle; clockwise you add a sharp. When get to key of F# major.  The notes going up scale are F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D# then next note is a whole step (2 frets) higher, following the letter scheme would thus be E, but has to be thus #. Though it is same sound as an F natural... already wrote that F is sharp in this key signature.

Similar the other direction of circle adding a flat; as get to key of Gb. Notes going up scale Gb, Ab, Bb... the next note is half step higher, what would be normally called a B note, signature already indicated a B is flat, and following letter order, C has to be a flat.