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Apr 10, 2024 - 2:21:42 PM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

13766 posts since 2/22/2007

I have seen nothing from CH that would qualify him as a racist and do believe that anyone making that slander should provide some backup for their claim.

Apr 10, 2024 - 3:16:13 PM
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Bill Rogers (Moderator)

USA

27965 posts since 6/25/2005

Evidence is something often lacking on the BHO when people make assertions.

Apr 10, 2024 - 3:19:55 PM
Players Union Member

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

30074 posts since 8/3/2003

quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I have seen nothing from CH that would qualify him as a racist and do believe that anyone making that slander should provide some backup for their claim.


If we were in a court of law, one might have to do just that.  Since this is just a banjo forum, it's not mandatory, although it would be nice if they did.

Apr 10, 2024 - 5:40:05 PM
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KCJones

USA

2985 posts since 8/30/2012

Wait does this mean we can call people racist or other things without evidence and that's allowed?

Just want to make sure I'm clear on the rules.

Apr 10, 2024 - 6:20:22 PM
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Bill Rogers (Moderator)

USA

27965 posts since 6/25/2005

There is no specific rule. Generally members should avoid inflammatory characterizations of others. “Racist” seems inflammatory, and deserving of evidence. There are tools to report such language. Use them.

Apr 10, 2024 - 11:52:55 PM

2039 posts since 4/10/2005

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers

There is no specific rule. Generally members should avoid inflammatory characterizations of others. “Racist” seems inflammatory, and deserving of evidence. There are tools to report such language. Use them.


 

It was brought to the Mods' attention several posts ago in comments by myself and others on this very thread, expressing concern about characterizations that do seem to be crossing lines.

 

   

Apr 11, 2024 - 4:32:14 AM
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banjoy

USA

11585 posts since 7/1/2006

I would kindly suggest that this thread has run its course and serves no purpose beyond this point, for the many reasons cited above by others, and that perhaps it should be locked, that it will only be a circular discussion going forward. This is just my opinion, but I believe a shared one.

Edited by - banjoy on 04/11/2024 04:33:48

Apr 11, 2024 - 4:45:04 AM

51 posts since 9/8/2017
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by banjoy

I would kindly suggest that this thread has run its course and serves no purpose beyond this point, for the many reasons cited above by others, and that perhaps it should be locked, that it will only be a circular discussion going forward. This is just my opinion, but I believe a shared one.


Yup!

I like cheese!

Apr 11, 2024 - 6:15:02 AM

806 posts since 4/28/2012

I am wondering if anyone here has taken online lessons with Clifton?

Also, is there any opinion on his Patreon lessons? Great lessons? Mediocre?

This style of banjo playing is quite fascinating!
Is it true that Clifton developed that style mostly on his own?

Thanks in advance for any info!

Apr 11, 2024 - 6:19:14 AM

806 posts since 4/28/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Evidence is something often lacking on the BHO when people make assertions.


 

Well....

We do have evidence of the dark side of human nature!

And.... it's right here in this thread.

I suspect that one of Clifton's friends/acquaintances has alerted him

to the nature of this topic. 

Perhaps he's laughing his head off right now...!

This is a classic example of "what is" and "what appears to be"...

Oh, the irony!

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/11/2024 06:26:11

Apr 11, 2024 - 6:25:59 AM
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conic

England

999 posts since 2/15/2014

Oh dear, its funny how when the thread is turning to Cliffs favour some are scared of the truth and want it cancelled, disgraceful also as it somebody else's post. you could not make this up,
Its a good job there are some level headed mods.

Apr 11, 2024 - 7:04:34 AM
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KCJones

USA

2985 posts since 8/30/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Douglas

I am wondering if anyone here has taken online lessons with Clifton?

Also, is there any opinion on his Patreon lessons? Great lessons? Mediocre?

This style of banjo playing is quite fascinating!
Is it true that Clifton developed that style mostly on his own?

Thanks in advance for any info!


Not currently, but I've taken some video lessons from him in the past and have subscribed to his Patreon in an on-and-off pattern. 

Overall, his approach is great. His approach is very much emphasized by the "traditional vernacular" approach, which is different than most online teachers. The lessons feel like "knee-to-knee" lessons. He primarily teaches by ear and showing what to do on the banjo, and for songs with lyrics he always teaches the lyrics and encourages students that songs with lyrics should be sung rather than just played instrumental. He emphasizes learning to play a song your own way, and encourages adding your own flairs/style to the songs. He does provide tabs, but they're more for reference after lessons, he doesn't teach from tabs at all. He also integrates the history of the songs/music into the lessons, so not only do you learn how to play a song you also learn where it came from originally, the historical context of the song, and about notable renditions through the years. 

Apr 11, 2024 - 7:14:43 AM

2039 posts since 4/10/2005

quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I have seen nothing from CH that would qualify him as a racist and do believe that anyone making that slander should provide some backup for their claim.


If we were in a court of law, one might have to do just that.  Since this is just a banjo forum, it's not mandatory, although it would be nice if they did.

 

 

I am very surprised to read this reply.  Because I recall distinctly an instance where a commenter (not myself), metaphorically described one of the involved individuals in a controversy with the person who is the subject of this thread, "a carpetbagger"  in the sense of a poser or phony in the  oldtime/clawhammer-authenticity department.      And you specifically deleted that comment with an admonition along the lines of,  "Negative comments about individual banjo players are unacceptable here."

 

Which i support and have no problem with.    But if one reviews this thread honestly, there are places where it appears to be open season for characterizations and appellations of a different banjo player, which are markedly worse than the example I just gave of a comment swiftly removed when made about someone else.  

There are also references on this thread to a controversy between Mr. Hicks and others in the oldtime banjo community involving social media posts and text conversations occurring elsewhere.   Another surprise, given that threads and discussion here about that very dust-up were shut down---actions by the BH mods which I also understand and support.

But it appears to be free rein in this thread to make unsupported conclusory statements regarding the facts of those events, along with inflammatory appellations applied to named people--that is, free rein if applied to one named person.   

Personally, the query that launched this thread as well as a chunk of the discussion, did not seem out of bounds to me.  But some assertions represented here as factual are troubling given that accounts from all sides and links to evidence are not present for people to consider for themselves and discussion of such has been specifically barred here.   And given that full discussion and debate of some themes and issues touches on subject matter off limits at BH.

And in places on this thread,  inflammatory appellations or characterizations have been allowed to stand about a named individual in a manner which seems to cross lines--legal lines, fairness lines, and lines drawn by BH itself.

 

 

 

 


Edited by - ceemonster on 04/11/2024 07:28:25

Apr 11, 2024 - 7:24:22 AM

KCJones

USA

2985 posts since 8/30/2012

ceemonster the answer is pretty obvious. Some people are allowed to say whatever they want here, and some musicians are okay to insult. Some other people must follow the rules, and some other musicians are not okay to disparage.

It's been like this for a long time. Most online communities deal with it. It's called playing favorites.

This comment will be deleted because the moderation team here knows it's true, and they refuse to stand up to public scrutiny.

Apr 11, 2024 - 7:32:10 AM

2039 posts since 4/10/2005

quote:
Originally posted by KCJones

ceemonster the answer is pretty obvious. Some people are allowed to say whatever they want here, and some musicians are okay to insult. Some other people must follow the rules, and some other musicians are not okay to disparage.

It's been like this for a long time. Most online communities deal with it. It's called playing favorites.

This comment will be deleted because the moderation team here knows it's true, and they refuse to stand up to public scrutiny.


 

Well, I can't get into that.    Because I'm not supporting a "side."  I find the respective "sides"  talented, knowledgeable, and utterly insufferable at times.   I also understand BH-specific actions when BH rules are violated.   But I am calling for consistency and fairness when a discussion crosses lines into unsupported factual representations about non-BH events, or crosses lines into unproven disparaging, inflammatory appellations and characterizations about named people in writing on the internet.  Particularly when full debate or discussion is not possible because  a) Facts and evidence are unavailable here in the BH context; and B) Such debate/discussion would implicate BH subject-matter rules.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/11/2024 07:41:24

Apr 11, 2024 - 7:46:49 AM
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83 posts since 4/24/2019

Just for the record, before this thread is zipped up, it should be noted that CH served in Iraq and appears to exhibit classic PTSD. He's been active with antiwar and veterans' groups. His work with George Gibson is important, and Gibson is proud of his African American heritage and legacy, which cuts against the assumption that CH is racist.
CH ran afoul of NE academia (especially Berkeley), the cult of authenticity and what we now call "being woke."
I appreciate his art and his mission, but not the politics or cultural turf wars.

Edited by - Jehoshaphat on 04/11/2024 08:01:17

Apr 11, 2024 - 7:52:41 AM
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KCJones

USA

2985 posts since 8/30/2012

The idea that Clifton Hicks is racist is absolutely absurd. A significant portion of his online content focuses on the fact that white and black people lived, worked, and played together, and were not as divided as modern historians would have you believe. His content uses musical history as a platform to teach unity between all races and show that strong racial divisions were not as clear-cut as they're portrayed in common media. 

That's the entire reason for this entire issue, and I alluded to it before. Hicks teaches racial unity and promotes the true nuanced history that American folk music is multi-racial in nature. Blount teaches racial division and that specific music is exclusively from/for specific races. This is the root of the disagreement, and the seed from which all these arguments have stemmed. It's an academic disagreement between historians, and rather than stand on the merits of their argument, the anti-Hicks crowd has turned to an online smear campaign to discredit him as a person rather than addressing his actual positions. 

Someone saying Clifton Hicks is a racist is an immediate indication that they've never actually read or watched anything he's said.

Edited by - KCJones on 04/11/2024 07:58:30

Apr 11, 2024 - 8:25:41 AM
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2039 posts since 4/10/2005

]]]Blount teaches racial division and that specific music is exclusively from/for specific races.[[[

This part I can't say I agree with. At least not in recent comments I've read or heard. What I've seen is, a stated desire to augment or restore history with facts that have not previously been aired.  I have actually seen that from both of these banjo player/historians.

I do think that both of these banjo player-historians have identified areas where historical evidence contradicts, or is inconclusive, in a manner counter to previous official history and received wisdom. (I should add, the "current" historical evidence, because the exciting thing about research and investigation, is that new evidence is continually being identified and brought to light.)

But where it's a matter of the record being inconclusive and uncertain, both perhaps have at times "leaned in" a bit hard in advocating for interpretations or theories that are possible but not proven, yet resonate in a way that is very appealing and meaningful for them.     Interpretations and theories are fine, so long as one is clear about differentiating what is known as fact from the record, versus, what that might suggest, or how that might be interpreted.   We are talking about young people here who are also very emotional and passionate, and perhaps "lean in" a bit hard.    I have seen interpretations or theories embraced and put out there in a way that ruffles feathers on respective sides of today's horrid polarities.    But I haven't seen anybody falsifying or misrepresenting historical sources.

This is difficult to discuss intelligently here, because it veers onto subject matter off limits at this forum.    Or at times is deemed as doing so.  I'm all for discussion and debate, but I don't intentionally cross lines as to BH rules.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/11/2024 08:37:51

Apr 11, 2024 - 8:41:51 AM
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Players Union Member

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

30074 posts since 8/3/2003

quote:
Originally posted by ceemonster
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I have seen nothing from CH that would qualify him as a racist and do believe that anyone making that slander should provide some backup for their claim.


If we were in a court of law, one might have to do just that.  Since this is just a banjo forum, it's not mandatory, although it would be nice if they did.

 

 

I am very surprised to read this reply.  Because I recall distinctly an instance where a commenter (not myself), metaphorically described one of the involved individuals in a controversy with the person who is the subject of this thread, "a carpetbagger"  in the sense of a poser or phony in the  oldtime/clawhammer-authenticity department.      And you specifically deleted that comment with an admonition along the lines of,  "Negative comments about individual banjo players are unacceptable here."

 

Which i support and have no problem with.    But if one reviews this thread honestly, there are places where it appears to be open season for characterizations and appellations of a different banjo player, which are markedly worse than the example I just gave of a comment swiftly removed when made about someone else.  

There are also references on this thread to a controversy between Mr. Hicks and others in the oldtime banjo community involving social media posts and text conversations occurring elsewhere.   Another surprise, given that threads and discussion here about that very dust-up were shut down---actions by the BH mods which I also understand and support.

But it appears to be free rein in this thread to make unsupported conclusory statements regarding the facts of those events, along with inflammatory appellations applied to named people--that is, free rein if applied to one named person.   

Personally, the query that launched this thread as well as a chunk of the discussion, did not seem out of bounds to me.  But some assertions represented here as factual are troubling given that accounts from all sides and links to evidence are not present for people to consider for themselves and discussion of such has been specifically barred here.   And given that full discussion and debate of some themes and issues touches on subject matter off limits at BH.

And in places on this thread,  inflammatory appellations or characterizations have been allowed to stand about a named individual in a manner which seems to cross lines--legal lines, fairness lines, and lines drawn by BH itself.

 

 

 

 


 


If you don't like the way I moderate, take it up with me OFF the Hangout.  If you still don't like it, take it up with Eric.  If he doesn't like it, he will let me know what I'm doing wrong.  Otherwise, please let me (and the other moderators) do their job the best way they know how.

No matter how we moderate, there will be some that disagree and complain.  That's okay, that's your right but it's not your right to criticize me in a post.  That needs to be done privately, as per the rules.  Here's the rule:   

  1. Posts Questioning a Moderator's Specific Actions: If you disagree with a moderator's actions, contact them or the site owner (Eric Schlange at eric@banjohangout.org). Please note that discussion of overall site policies is allowed, and should generally be placed in the "Improvements and Suggestions" forum.

As an aside, members are treated somewhat differently than non-members, especially those who have been banned because of rule breaking.   

Edited by - Texasbanjo on 04/11/2024 08:43:29

Apr 11, 2024 - 8:56:19 AM

2039 posts since 4/10/2005

Perhaps I was misled by the fact that when concerns have been raised about comments allowed free rein in this thread, you did not reply that such concerns must be expressed privately, but rather have engaged in discussion here in which you have justified the free rein given to inflammatory characterizations on this thread.   And you are continuing to justify that free rein.   That is greatly regrettable.

 

The concerns I raised were not about violations of BH rules that got anyone locked out.   The concerns I and others have expressed have involved inflammatory, potentially defamatory characterizations and appellations markedly surpassing negative comments deleted when made about others.     And the justification of that is regrettable to witness.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/11/2024 09:00:16

Apr 11, 2024 - 11:06:40 AM
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Players Union Member

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

30074 posts since 8/3/2003

quote:
Originally posted by ceemonster

Perhaps I was misled by the fact that when concerns have been raised about comments allowed free rein in this thread, you did not reply that such concerns must be expressed privately, but rather have engaged in discussion here in which you have justified the free rein given to inflammatory characterizations on this thread.   And you are continuing to justify that free rein.   That is greatly regrettable.

 

The concerns I raised were not about violations of BH rules that got anyone locked out.   The concerns I and others have expressed have involved inflammatory, potentially defamatory characterizations and appellations markedly surpassing negative comments deleted when made about others.     And the justification of that is regrettable to witness.


Most of the , as you put it potentially defamatory characterizations, are true.  It's not libel if it's true and it's not flaming if it's true.   You evidently were not here when all the problems happened with him and have no idea what really happened or why. 

Again, and last time, any more complaining about my moderating should be private, not public. 

Apr 11, 2024 - 11:24:33 AM
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3021 posts since 2/4/2013

quote:
Originally posted by KCJones

It is curious that some of the libelous comments in this thread still remain up, even now, even after the moderators have shown us that they are paying attention to the thread, even after those same moderators have admonished people for making personal attacks. As an example, gratefulbiker explicitly claims that someone is a racist and homophobe, is this allowed per BHO rules?
 


The rules only cover members and not discussion of others.

The post you mention said " This includes homophobic and racist innuendo directed at several other online banjo personalities ". It took me five minutes to find one of these.

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