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Apr 7, 2024 - 4:15:36 AM
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banjoy

USA

11585 posts since 7/1/2006

I try always -- always -- to stay away from these controversies and kerfuffles on BHO or anywhere else. But I do find it remarkable that in this thread so called "liberals" get blamed for all this or that Hick's posting of some controversial songs got him banned. That's utter nonsense. But it does not stop the blame machine and manufactured outrage at non-conservative views as normal. As other's posted here with direct knowledge there is much more to the story, a whole lot more.

I think I posted maybe once or twice to any of those past threads, to point out that controversy seems to follow Hicks wherever he goes. That's an observation, not a judgment. I did file a mod complaint about some absurd thread many years ago where, in this public forum, which is also read by kids, there were all these outrageous references to gays and blowj**s that had no place here. At all. What the hell?

The posts Hicks made with those controversial tunes did, in my opinion, spark some interesting discussion about all the other old and familiar tunes that also had similar themes, and I felt those aspects of the discussions were healthy and appropriate here. It was all the other stuff that derailed the train sending the locomotive plowing into irrelevant and disgusting territory, over innocent bystanders. As I recall, this happened many many times over a long while and poof, Hicks was gone.

As far as talent goes, clawhammer or frailing has never turned my creative crank but that's just me, so I never followed his work, but have watched several of his YouTube videos. Way back then. It's just not my cup of tea so if he's a world class talent, as other's suggest here, I'll defer to their opinion over my own.

It's been suggested here in this thread, there is some darkness in his past, which would explain quite a bit ... and I know from personal experience how past trauma can affect outlook and living, and interacting with others. From my perspective, our purpose here on earth is to merely witness, and experience life, for the creation can't experience itself but through us, the good, the bad, the ugly, and the beautiful. It's all here, we make our choices how to act ourselves, and how to act with others. Sometimes, it can be ugly and on full display. But these are just snapshots, moments memorialized in time.

I do not know this guy and it doesn't matter to me if I ever do. I wish him well, in the literal sense, and enough with this liberal-conservative bulls***. That means nothing, it's just an opinion. Experience means everything, and sometimes, it's painful. Sometimes, it's not. It is what it is.

Edited by - banjoy on 04/07/2024 04:23:35

Apr 7, 2024 - 8:30:54 AM
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806 posts since 4/28/2012

Great post Frank!

A lot of stuff to chew on there!
Much appreciated!


As Aristotle famously said....

"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness."

I'll put Clifton in the genius category!

Apr 7, 2024 - 9:10:32 AM
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31 posts since 6/22/2016

I don't normally bother to add comments on BHO fora unless I can contribute factual or technical information, and I do not have a history with Clifton Hicks, so I won't comment on the language and insults, perceived or real.

But I will point out a very unfortunate tendency for groups of people to decide someone is "the other" and decide that person should be scapegoated, and the multitudes pile on. This is the least appealing aspect of any social media format and I don't approve. Like the guy or don't like the guy, but think about his music in a different context.

When it comes down to it, most of the people who came up in the tradition of music in the 19th and 20th centuries had a narrow experience of life and tended to develop and express ideas and language we all would find less than acceptable today. Should we cancel all the music because some traditional players may have been racist or sexist?

Maybe someone should think of something more interesting to discuss.

Apr 7, 2024 - 9:31:48 AM

806 posts since 4/28/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Eulalie



Maybe someone should think of something more interesting to discuss.


 

I find this topic extremely interesting!

In fact, I was up all night thinking and reading 

about it. I'm hoping there will be more to 

come...

Thank you for your post.

Apr 7, 2024 - 9:57:47 AM

banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

13766 posts since 2/22/2007

"Don't get yer panties inna wad" is innocuous enough that I heard it spoken in class by a high school teacher to a student fifty years ago. Not sexist, applicable to all, a mildly humorous retort to anyone not insisting upon being offended at every opportunity.

Apr 7, 2024 - 10:39:18 AM
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4992 posts since 9/12/2016

my opinion --I ask no agreement
talking to your current human --one,that has been overbearing at the-moment--talking about his or her personal area is nauseating and --it is less than a showing of intelligence --being brought on. -- -----One, could fulfill their need to retort by staying with the subject matter--and giving better opposing facts and in the process seem a bit more mature.--   If in a last word contests on the net--just say --I am out of time --so I give you the last word -
I never paid much attention to Clifton--his first post I read--I thought --this guy is proclaiming "us against them"--the ''them ''---seemed to be anybody with picks on two fingers---I happened to be in his ''them'' crowd --
I don't diss, any of the ways of playing good music on the banjo--nor consider one better than the rest--there are many great players -that are polite--I spend my thoughts with them--life is short and politeness is more fun--to me

Edited by - Tractor1 on 04/07/2024 10:42:21

Apr 7, 2024 - 2:11:10 PM
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1031 posts since 10/23/2003

quote:
What does that have to do with Clifton.  He is not a traditional player from another era.  He is a middle class guy who grew up in the suburbs of Orlando who must be in his thirties by now who holds a masters degree.
He is the one who has been scape goating and slandering all kinds of people and carrying out conduct that every online and Facebook banjo and old time music that anyone knows about as  the Banjo Hangout which is more than tolerant has eventually kicked him out for.  It isnt a question of his opinions but a sick pattern of personal slanders he knows are lies and personal attacks, setting up fake accounts to get at people who have "unfriended" him etc, etc.   
As been pointed out here  BHO apparently asked him to follow the same rules as everyone else.   He refuses.  
 
Originally posted by Eulalie

I don't normally bother to add comments on BHO fora unless I can contribute factual or technical information, and I do not have a history with Clifton Hicks, so I won't comment on the language and insults, perceived or real.

But I will point out a very unfortunate tendency for groups of people to decide someone is "the other" and decide that person should be scapegoated, and the multitudes pile on. This is the least appealing aspect of any social media format and I don't approve. Like the guy or don't like the guy, but think about his music in a different context.

When it comes down to it, most of the people who came up in the tradition of music in the 19th and 20th centuries had a narrow experience of life and tended to develop and express ideas and language we all would find less than acceptable today. Should we cancel all the music because some traditional players may have been racist or sexist?

Maybe someone should think of something more interesting to discuss.


Apr 7, 2024 - 3:24:12 PM

806 posts since 4/28/2012

A great big thank you to R.D. Lunceford
for putting this amazing banjo player/singer on my radar!

Talent like this doesn't come along every day!

Very much appreciated!

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/07/2024 15:25:01

Apr 7, 2024 - 4:38:24 PM

806 posts since 4/28/2012

quote:
Originally posted by gratefulbiker

Clifton is certainly a great player/ singer and his dedication to the old school playing styles is without question.
Unfortunately, he’s been his own worst enemy the last few years due to a fair amount of questionable behavior in other online banjo communities.
This includes homophobic and racist 


I do not mean to display my ignorance.....

But if Clifton is, in fact, a racist individual...

Why would he have a picture of black musicians on his Patreon page?

A black drummer, fiddle player, banjo player, and bones player is featured prominently

on his home Patreon page!

Could someone shed some light on this?

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/07/2024 16:40:19

Apr 7, 2024 - 7:10:09 PM
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doryman

USA

1506 posts since 11/26/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Douglas
quote:
Originally posted by gratefulbiker

Clifton is certainly a great player/ singer and his dedication to the old school playing styles is without question.
Unfortunately, he’s been his own worst enemy the last few years due to a fair amount of questionable behavior in other online banjo communities.
This includes homophobic and racist 


I do not mean to display my ignorance.....

But if Clifton is, in fact, a racist individual...

Why would he have a picture of black musicians on his Patreon page?

A black drummer, fiddle player, banjo player, and bones player is featured prominently

on his home Patreon page!

Could someone shed some light on this?

 


I don't know beans about Clifton Hicks, but I can shed some possible light.  My own father gets along famously with the black men and women who work for him.  He even has "employee of the month" type pictures of them on the office wall.  Many years ago, an upstanding young black man under my father's employ started dating my sister.  Let's just say that it went very, very poorly for the young fellow and it tore our family apart.  Apparently, the young man did not know his place, according to my father, and my sister was bringing great shame to our family by dating a black man.  It was a very ugly time and it exposed my father for the kind of man he really was.  Again, I don't know Mr. Hicks, but don't be fooled by a few pictures. 

Apr 7, 2024 - 11:39:31 PM
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2039 posts since 4/10/2005

I am uncomfortable with the double standard that seems to apply here in giving free rein for pages to comments that publicly apply maligning ad hominem terms to named individuals versus immediately slamming on the padlock. Let alone named individuals not free to respond or rebut.  There is a line, and I believe it is being crossed here in places.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/07/2024 23:41:48

Apr 8, 2024 - 9:43:34 AM
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KCJones

USA

2985 posts since 8/30/2012

Clifton mostly gets flack from Jake Blount's legion of online minions. The idea that a murder ballad or any other online arguments caused this issue is ludicrous, as he was dealing with it for years before. It primarily stems from academic disagreements about the history of American folk music. 


It's not because of any off-color comments, but because he offers a factual history that contradicts the racially divisive and blatantly false "officially sanctioned history" that is presented by Blount and his friends. He literally cannot post in many online spaces, because there is a sizable number of "terminally online" activists that will attack him if he does. That's also why he's been forced to use various aliases to post some content.

Most of this goes unsaid in these types of threads, some people know the details but most don't. I think this context is important enough to state explicitly in this discussion, and I hope that it isn't removed by the BHO moderation team.

Edited by - KCJones on 04/08/2024 09:46:49

Apr 8, 2024 - 10:24:01 AM
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677 posts since 5/20/2008

Early on, I found Clifton's presentation of his theories to be ineffective.  Not right vs. wrong, but ineffective.  If you have views worth sharing, isn't the point to be able to get and keep folks' attention?  Instead, his delivery was and is consistently off-putting, as is use of terms like "minions" and "Leftist Internet Hate Machine" in this thread.  Mr. Hicks may have many things worth paying attention to, but delivery that lacks humility, grace, nuance and complexity isn't going to get the job done.  

The French writer Gide, from a century ago, said "Let them be right.  That's all they can be".  If Mr. Hicks were less concerned about being right, my guess is that he'd be far more compelling and far more interesting. 

Apr 8, 2024 - 10:26:56 AM
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ndlxs

USA

520 posts since 9/26/2006

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Buckley

The French writer Gide, from a century ago, said "Let them be right.  That's all they can be".  If Mr. Hicks were less concerned about being right, my guess is that he'd be far more compelling and far more interesting. 

 

 

That pretty much applies to all of us, and is an excellent reminder.  The minute you think you are right you stop listening.

Apr 8, 2024 - 10:55:17 AM

4992 posts since 9/12/2016

I don't have much faith in any all in one explanation of how all the players of music from ---all of the ages--influenced each other--especially when seasoned with the communication and transportation modes of yester year--
before the steam engines---regional was more the norm--and regions were a bit of a different size back then--when crossing them took so much longer
putting all of this in an adamant global perspective would be leaving out most of true stories--
I am for all the fun to read evidence and find it interesting study--but I only adopt the evidence --So ,no one source of western folk music--caused all others to be a certain way--
my opinion I ask no agreement

Apr 9, 2024 - 6:30:23 AM

806 posts since 4/28/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Buckley

 Instead, his delivery was and is consistently off-putting, as is use of terms like "minions" and "Leftist Internet Hate Machine" in this thread.  Mr. Hicks may have many things worth paying attention to, but delivery that lacks humility, grace, nuance and complexity isn't going to get the job done.  

 

 


 

I understand that for some folks that's a real concern.....

History is inundated with figures who might have had unsavory or appalling political views.

The great philosopher Heidegger (who was a Nazi) comes to mind,

It's all about the banjo and his compelling voice that I find fascinating.

I'm not sure everyone is comfortable separating the music from the parsonal views of the musician!

Apr 9, 2024 - 7:05:51 AM
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Players Union Member

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

30074 posts since 8/3/2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Douglas
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Buckley

 Instead, his delivery was and is consistently off-putting, as is use of terms like "minions" and "Leftist Internet Hate Machine" in this thread.  Mr. Hicks may have many things worth paying attention to, but delivery that lacks humility, grace, nuance and complexity isn't going to get the job done.  

 

 


 

I understand that for some folks that's a real concern.....

History is inundated with figures who might have had unsavory or appalling political views.

The great philosopher Heidegger (who was a Nazi) comes to mind,

It's all about the banjo and his compelling voice that I find fascinating.

I'm not sure everyone is comfortable separating the music from the parsonal views of the musician!

 

 

 


I don't know about everyone else, but I do have a problem separating the two.  I once left my seat at a festival because the band leader got up and instead of playing his set, he proceeded to preach to the audience.  If I'd wanted a sermon, I'd have gone to church.   Some things like religion, politics and bad language, have no place at festivals where people come to hear music.  Just my take. 

Apr 9, 2024 - 10:20:20 AM
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2039 posts since 4/10/2005

There have been plenty of angry and off-putting terms, appellations, and rhetoric used in this and other threads about this topic, as to some of the clawhammer-world names on respective sides of whatever one might call this debate, divide, conflict, etc. Personally, I find those on both polar ends simultaneously very gifted and knowledgeable, yet at times utterly insufferable. I simply would like to see consistency in policies about the tenor of characterizations applied to individuals and events that are allowed to stand in writing on a public internet forum.

Apr 9, 2024 - 1:27:56 PM
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Bill Rogers (Moderator)

USA

27965 posts since 6/25/2005

We try, but our idea of consistency might not be yours. Also, a site like BHO does not have the resources to hire full-time moderators who might find it easier to set and adhere to a detailed set of posting rules.

Apr 9, 2024 - 1:59:30 PM
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806 posts since 4/28/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers

We try, but our idea of consistency might not be yours. Also, a site like BHO does not have the resources to hire full-time moderators who might find it easier to set and adhere to a detailed set of posting rules.


 

Honestly Bill.....you guys do an amazing job!

If you mods. attempted to respond to every 

guy or gal that gets bent out of shape or cries

injustice or hypocrisy, you all would be in the 

looney bin! Most of the time folks just can't 

stand to see something posted that is so 

diametrically opposed to their core values and 

beliefs. There is (rightly or wrongly) a sense of 

ownership by some. "How dare you allow this 

to be posted on my forum!"  And this sense of 

ownership translates to hostility....and 

occasionally anger.

 

Talk about a thankless job!

You all win the gold medal for that!

For all of its shortcomings and flaws...this 

forum has helped a lot of pickers! And has 

been the source of an extraordinary amount

of information that could never be found elsewhere!

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/09/2024 14:15:14

Apr 9, 2024 - 2:43:46 PM
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6304 posts since 3/11/2006

Well, I've been out of town and off-line for the last few days, and was surprised to see how this thread has developed.

I don't know where I must have been not to have seen or known of Clifton's posts... I've been fairly regular here since 2006!

Apr 9, 2024 - 6:09:36 PM

806 posts since 4/28/2012

quote:Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford and was surprised to see how this thread has developed.





That would be pleasantly surprised....

correct?
 

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/09/2024 18:10:26

Apr 10, 2024 - 10:52:39 AM
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KCJones

USA

2985 posts since 8/30/2012

Here's the thing. The main group of people that don't like Clifton are the folks that are offended at everything. Absolutely everything nowadays, they're offended about it. Everything is a personal slight, their entire world-view is shaped by perceived oppression from a perceived privileged class. It's like it's their job or something. For some of them I'm pretty sure it actually is their job.

I just have a hard time taking people seriously when their default state is outrage. Today they're upset about a song someone played, and tomorrow they'll be offended by something else. When someone is offended and outraged about nearly everything they encounter, sure maybe they're right sometimes, but it's still hard to take them seriously when that happens. It's a bit of a "boy who cried wolf" situation with these people.

Edited by - KCJones on 04/10/2024 10:53:11

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