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Dec 6, 2023 - 2:36:44 PM
214 posts since 1/17/2019

I admit….I am confused. I am not being political, just asking how this works.

The current administration was blocked like a year or so ago by the Supreme Court for implementing a program of student loan forgiveness.

However, there have been several announcements, including today, of $xx billion of forgiveness.

How does that circumvent the Supreme Court ruling? I could read up on it but I figure I would get the skinny from a banjo scholar and save my brain cells.

Please no political commentary or it will be locked and I will never know the answer to my query!

Thanks!

Dec 6, 2023 - 3:23:07 PM
Players Union Member

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

29818 posts since 8/3/2003

Unfortunately, there's no way to explain it that isn't political. Should be interesting to see if any one can explain it without being political.

Warning: first political post will get this locked.

Dec 6, 2023 - 3:53:46 PM
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RB3

USA

1916 posts since 4/12/2004

Below is an explanation from a story on the CNN website.

“We are continuing to pursue an alternative path to deliver student debt relief to as many borrowers as possible as quickly as possible,” Biden said in a statement Wednesday.

The cancellations have come through existing federal student loan forgiveness programs, which are limited to specific categories of borrowers, such as public-sector workers, people defrauded by for-profit colleges and borrowers who have paid for at least 20 years.

Those borrowers who are eligible for relief under Wednesday’s announcement qualify in one of two ways: either under the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, which wipes away remaining student loan debt after qualifying public-sector workers make 10 years’ worth of monthly payments; or because they have made at least 20 years of qualifying payments in an income-driven repayment program but didn’t previously get credit for all of their student loan payments.

Most of these borrowers were notified in November that their outstanding federal student loan debt would be canceled and they can expect to see the changes made to their accounts in the coming weeks.

The Biden administration has been granting student loan forgiveness through these existing programs on a rolling basis since coming into office. To date, it has granted more student loan forgiveness than any other administration – in part due to efforts to temporarily expand some debt relief programs and to correct past administrative errors made to borrowers’ student loan accounts.

Dec 6, 2023 - 4:23:51 PM

214 posts since 1/17/2019

So, in reference to my question regarding how forgiveness can happen without circumventing the Supreme Court ruling, the way I read it is that:

A forgiveness program cannot be wide open to just anyone, therefore, various categories or conditions must be met to qualify such as public sector employment or years long history of paying back the debt.

Me thinks I get it…..and without politicizing ….woo hoo!

Dec 6, 2023 - 4:26:03 PM
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mander

USA

5127 posts since 10/7/2007

I think it behooves all of us to encourage people to be gainfully employed.

Dec 7, 2023 - 5:12:22 AM
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wizofos

USA

6391 posts since 8/19/2012

I was fortunate and had my tuition paid by the state due to qualifying for Korea War veterans benfits. Between that and my VA GI bill and working full time on second shift I was able to get through college and support my wife and child. The issue here is that the most of the post WWII GI benefits have been eliminated.

Dec 7, 2023 - 5:48:37 AM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

13691 posts since 2/22/2007
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What Wayne posted was as clear as we will get. I found the highlighted part interesting "people defrauded by for-profit colleges" and avoiding any specific college that would get this locked, I do believe that most ALL colleges should be considered "for profit" because administrators do quite well financially and the profit motive is key in much decision making.
I think that perhaps the colleges who sold students on worthless majors at sky high prices might could be considered fraudulent?

Dec 7, 2023 - 6:03:17 AM
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14830 posts since 1/15/2005
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Amen Bill ……… and I think most colleges would fit that category. My daughter’s college, at least for her master’s degree was selected by her because they had a 93% placement rate for graduates. She secured her job in her third semester of the two-year program. She still works at the same place 18 years later.

Dec 7, 2023 - 6:13:55 AM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

13691 posts since 2/22/2007
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John I'm guessing that she didn't major in Gender Studies or DEI? Her master's thesis was not on the Patriarchy or Intersectionality? There does seem to be less of a market for that than projected.

Dec 7, 2023 - 6:22:03 AM

14830 posts since 1/15/2005
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quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

John I'm guessing that she didn't major in Gender Studies or DEI? Her master's thesis was not on the Patriarchy or Intersectionality? There does seem to be less of a market for that than projected.


Nope .....National Security Studies.   Undergrad in biology and political science (covered a lot of bases).

Dec 7, 2023 - 7:33:51 AM
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1527 posts since 11/10/2022

In a nutty shell.

There are laws passed by congress in the US that allows student loan forgiveness to very specific groups. A President cannot executive order away debt is the supreme court decision. If there is not a law existing forgiving debt for some particular group or reason, then congress must pass a law making the student loans for that group or reason forgivable...the President cant just make it so.

Do not confuse this with reimbursements. The VA reimburses veterans, many companies reimburse employees for college. Many states reimburse firefighters and administrators etc. There is no law prohibiting someone getting reimbursed (their loans paid) by whom they work for.

Dec 7, 2023 - 11:42:32 AM
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Bill Rogers (Moderator)

USA

27757 posts since 6/25/2005

Years ago, my federal NDEA loan ($29k in today’s inflated dollars) was forgiven because I taught five years at a Title I public school. That loan program is long gone. Most college loans are now private (many with gov’t guarantees) at higher interest rates and without the incentive to teach at a school serving low-income families.

Dec 7, 2023 - 12:08:56 PM
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14830 posts since 1/15/2005
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Years ago, my federal NDEA loan ($29k in today’s inflated dollars) was forgiven because I taught five years at a Title I public school. That loan program is long gone. Most college loans are now private (many with gov’t guarantees) at higher interest rates and without the incentive to teach at a school serving low-income families.


I think programs that were intended to forgive debt for those who served, in all different capacities (doctors, teachers, nurses, etc.) in communities in need of those services were very necessary and warranted.  Others that have been proposed in recent years not so much.

Dec 7, 2023 - 12:48:05 PM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

13691 posts since 2/22/2007
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Forgiving debt for service rendered is quite different from the current discussion. And to clarify, there is no "forgiving of debt" as that debt does not just go away. No, that debt gets paid by the taxpayers instead of by the borrower, which is what makes this everyone's business. And those defaulting on these loans tend to be in the upper 20% of household incomes. So yes, there is resentment among those who did not go to college along with all of those who paid their own way that a bunch of rich kids who got worthless degrees are demanding that they get a free ride, paid for by those without their financial and social advantages. If that is not "privilege" then what is?

Dec 7, 2023 - 1:01:53 PM

chuckv97

Canada

71527 posts since 10/5/2013

Bill, are you hinting at “ re-distribution of wealth”? Tell me it ain’t so! wink

Dec 7, 2023 - 1:20:17 PM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

13691 posts since 2/22/2007
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I'm certainly not advocating for any such redistribution.

Dec 7, 2023 - 5:05:57 PM
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AGACNP

USA

597 posts since 10/12/2011

Any suggestion of school debt forgiveness without another service rendered (armed forces/VA, teaching in rural areas, etc), burns me up. I worked and paid for every quarter and semester of school I attended out of my own pocket….no loans either.

How we got to a culture of normalizing the assumption we don’t have to pay for goods and services we consume/use is beyond me.

Dec 7, 2023 - 5:55:36 PM
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Owen

Canada

14558 posts since 6/5/2011

Back in the 60s when I was a student at U of MB, for 1 year my dad paid for, and for the others I paid for, everything the university billed us for.... I thought/assumed that I/we were paying the whole shot .... but somebody or other* said that tuition/fees only covered about 20% of the cost of running the university.... I dunno what proportions other sources of doh-rey-me [gov't., fund raising campaigns, alumni, etc.] might have amounted to.  

* = How's that for a rock-solid citation? wink

Edited by - Owen on 12/07/2023 18:08:08

Dec 7, 2023 - 7:28:07 PM

214 posts since 1/17/2019

One could draw a parallel, not exact, whereby persons who bought a house and then had their mortgage loan forgiven. The parallel fairness question is: what about all those individuals who worked years to pay down their mortgage? What do they get?

Perhaps there could have been baked into the program a quid pro quo for loan forgiveness but the train has left the station.

Dec 7, 2023 - 8:10:28 PM
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RB3

USA

1916 posts since 4/12/2004

I'm not sure that it's fair to lay blame on those who benefit from the loan forgiveness programs. It seems to me that the loan forgiveness initiatives come from elected and appointed people who serve in our government. If I had borrowed money through a government student loan program, I would have paid off the loan. But if someone from the government notified me that I qualified for loan forgiveness, I would cheerfully accept the offer, and not feel one bit guilty for having done so.

Edited by - RB3 on 12/07/2023 20:12:22

Dec 7, 2023 - 8:38:58 PM

RDP

USA

275 posts since 2/27/2009

Take the loan forgiveness. Billions are going overseas to buy friendship of other countries with our tax dollars.

Dec 7, 2023 - 8:49:25 PM
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doryman

USA

1458 posts since 11/26/2012

quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

And those defaulting on these loans tend to be in the upper 20% of household incomes. So yes, there is resentment among those who did not go to college along with all of those who paid their own way that a bunch of rich kids who got worthless degrees are demanding that they get a free ride, paid for by those without their financial and social advantages. If that is not "privilege" then what is?


Privileged rich kids with worthless degrees accounting for most of the defaults makes a nice story,  but it's also completely false. A comparison of default rate by income level clearly shows that students from the lowest income families default at the highest rate, and it's not even close.  A state by state comparison will show that default rates are highest in the poorer states (the southeast) and lowest in the richer states. 

Edited by - doryman on 12/07/2023 21:01:55

Dec 7, 2023 - 9:19:29 PM
Players Union Member

Tommy5

USA

4230 posts since 2/22/2009

Remember fiat currency has no intrinsic value, its just a medium of exchange, by forgiving the debt of poor and working class people , the government can  in effect ,inject currency into the private sector and help to stimulate the economy, the economy would benefit from this overall. Most of the currency in the US isn’t even paper anyone, I think about 94% or so is just digital numbers in a computer. It’s keeping a proper balance that is crucial. If the government’s dumps more money into the economy  then the GNP, it causes inflation, too little causes deflation and recession. There are other causes of inflation, mostly supply and demand issues, but giving tax payers a break is usually a better plan then buying yet another fleet aircraft carrier, again another balance issue , too much spent on the military is bad for the economy, too little can lead to , well you can imagine.

Edited by - Tommy5 on 12/07/2023 21:21:09

Dec 7, 2023 - 10:38:23 PM
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5954 posts since 3/6/2006
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by doryman
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

And those defaulting on these loans tend to be in the upper 20% of household incomes. So yes, there is resentment among those who did not go to college along with all of those who paid their own way that a bunch of rich kids who got worthless degrees are demanding that they get a free ride, paid for by those without their financial and social advantages. If that is not "privilege" then what is?


Privileged rich kids with worthless degrees accounting for most of the defaults makes a nice story,  but it's also completely false. A comparison of default rate by income level clearly shows that students from the lowest income families default at the highest rate, and it's not even close.  A state by state comparison will show that default rates are highest in the poorer states (the southeast) and lowest in the richer states. 


Please don't confuse me with facts. It's a lot more fun to make spurious claims that support my already held worldview. 

Yes, that is sarcasm. smiley

Dec 7, 2023 - 10:58:15 PM
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doryman

USA

1458 posts since 11/26/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Laurence Diehl
quote:
Originally posted by doryman
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

And those defaulting on these loans tend to be in the upper 20% of household incomes. So yes, there is resentment among those who did not go to college along with all of those who paid their own way that a bunch of rich kids who got worthless degrees are demanding that they get a free ride, paid for by those without their financial and social advantages. If that is not "privilege" then what is?


Privileged rich kids with worthless degrees accounting for most of the defaults makes a nice story,  but it's also completely false. A comparison of default rate by income level clearly shows that students from the lowest income families default at the highest rate, and it's not even close.  A state by state comparison will show that default rates are highest in the poorer states (the southeast) and lowest in the richer states. 


Please don't confuse me with facts. It's a lot more fun to make spurious claims that support my already held worldview. 

Yes, that is sarcasm. smiley


If I'm allowed on my soapbox for a minute, I cringe when folks mock "worthless degrees."  Who gets to define "worthless?"  Who dare to have the audacity?  I myself, by my father's own account, earned a "worthless" degree, some 40 years ago. I chose to follow a dream. My reward was a vocation that was also an advocation, and a very profitable one at that.  I learned long ago that the passion of youth is not to be discounted, it is to be celebrated.  My life is better for it. 

Edited by - doryman on 12/07/2023 23:00:26

Dec 7, 2023 - 11:39:58 PM
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306 posts since 12/17/2011

All I will add to this is that my daughter-in-law took student loans for divinity school to become an ordained minister. I guess it was a calling. She works as a spiritual advisor to hospice patients and their families. It would be a blessing if her loans are forgiven since her salary is so low and her work so needed.

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