Page: 1 2
Good Morning,
At a recent jam I asked a question about hitting melody notes on a song that is unfamiliar. Response was to learn the Pentatonic scale to assist. I know rolls in the chord progression will by default hit some melody notes, right?? But what about what was suggested? I know this will help, but what do you all advise? Do I insert a Pentatonic roll on Nine Pound Hammer instead of a standard roll?
Thanks
In western music, the heptatonic (7-note) scale is the default scale so people generally won't use the word "heptatonic", and if they don't give it a label it's assumed you're using the heptatonic scale with 7 notes. People won't say the "major heptatonic scale", they'll just say "major scale" and everyone knows they're talking about the 7 note scale.
So for example, a G major scale is GABCDEF#(G), a C major scale is CDEFGAB(C), a D major scale is DEF#GABC. Major chords are formed by fretting the 1st (root), 3rd, and 5th interval of a major scale, so the G major chord is G-B-D, the C chord is C-E-G, the D major chord is D-F#-A.
A pentatonic scale is one that uses 5 notes, instead of the typical 7 notes. You form the pentatonic scale by dropping the "half steps" from the corresponding heptatonic scale. So for example, the G major pentatonic would be formed by dropping the D and the F# from the G major (GABDE). A C major pentatonic would drop the F and B (CDEGA). A D major pentatonic would drop the G and C (DEF#AB).
Now, notice this: With a major chord, you already have 3 of the 5 notes in a pentatonic scale (1-3-5). So when you're doing a typical roll over chords, you are correct in your statement that you're already hitting some pentatonic notes and those notes are going to be part of the melody. All you have to do now, is find the other two notes in the scale (2 and 6).
Start with a G chord. If you have a G-chord formed at the 5th fret, using the F Shape, you are fretting 5-4-3-5, which gives you the notes G-B-D-G. So you need to find the 2nd and 6th note, or the A and the E. You can do this by finding a note that's already in the chord, adjust your fingering up or down to hit the note you need. To get an A note, you can move the B note down 2 frets to get to A. Or to find the E note, you can move the D note up 2 frets to get the E. There's a few options to find each note. You can use this method for any chord. Once you've done that a bit, now you know where to find all 5 pentatonic notes. And then you can hit those notes occasionally to follow the melody more closely.
Edited by - KCJones on 09/25/2023 05:54:35
Much easier to understand, is by watching a video. I highly recommend the 5-part series from John Boulding. He breaks it down and makes it easy to learn. Watch these videos a few times each, pause and rewind, and you'll know exactly how to do it.
Part 1: LOTW - Banjo lessons: Pentatonic scales - Three shape outline - YouTube
Part 2: LOTW - Banjo Lessons: Pentatonic scales (Part 2) - Finding melody - YouTube
Part 3: LOTW - Banjo lessons: Pentatonic scales (Part 3) - Color tones - YouTube
Part 4: LOTW - Banjo lessons: Pentatonic scales (Part 4) - Minor pentatonic F shape - YouTube
Part 5: LOTW - Banjo Lessons: Pentatonic scales (Part 5) - D shape - YouTube
Edited by - KCJones on 09/25/2023 05:49:30
Another way of looking at it; is pentatonic notes within the scale, forming a melodic framework.
These 5 notes on many tunes, make up the majority or main emphasis of melodic notes over the chord progression; sometimes the only melodic notes (like Nine Pound hammer). Thus that framework focus is bit easier to hear, makes it as easier to pick up unfamiliar melodies by ear on the fly. Once get used to hearing it, also easy to hear if a melody departs and goes to another note (likely on of the other two in scale.)
Similar it is quite easy to improvise fills or lyrical melodic line over chord progression, at least as main emphasis, or perhaps exclusively... and often any of those 5 notes won't sound horrible/dissonant, no matter the chord.
I also often use the pentatonic notes as frame, shapes, or as anchor points; to help mentally map out up and down the fingerboard.
Edited by - banjoak on 09/25/2023 06:53:05
When I was first learning to do my own breaks, my teacher taught me about the pentatonic scale and how to use it for melodies. He also gave me several "musical phrases" that would work on many songs. I can't find the tab for those or I'd post it.
As Banjoak said above, those 5 notes do make up "most" of the melodies in songs and once you get used to where they are located on your banjo, it's fairly easy to improvise at least a simple break on a song you've never heard before.
Take a song you know well and pick out the melody notes, forget the frills, just the melody notes. Now, are most of the melody notes from the pentatonic scale? I'll bet they are. Do that on a bunch of songs and you'll begin to get the idea and be able to pick out a melody fairly easily. Then start adding all the frills; i.e., slides, hammers, pulls, partial rolls, etc.
Try it. It's fun and very enlightening.
Good Morning KC, Sherry & Alaska,
Thanks for this!! Per chance if Tab is found....
quote:
Originally posted by USAF PJGood Morning KC, Sherry & Alaska,
Thanks for this!! Per chance if Tab is found....
I'll look again, but this was a tab that was done wayyyyy back in the '90s. I'm not sure it still exists.
I never practice scales.I play unknowns by quickly identifying their key and chord progression the 1st time through as I play simple rolls over the chord progression.
Playing a new melody has a lot to do with knowing what a note or roll is going to sound like before you play it.
Often there are places in a new piece that sound like stuff I've already gotten used to in other songs,shortening the learning curve considerably.
These familiarizations come with building a strong "library of experiences".
quote:
Originally posted by USAF PJGood Morning,
At a recent jam I asked a question about hitting melody notes on a song that is unfamiliar. Response was to learn the Pentatonic scale to assist. I know rolls in the chord progression will by default hit some melody notes, right?? But what about what was suggested? I know this will help, but what do you all advise? Do I insert a Pentatonic roll on Nine Pound Hammer instead of a standard roll?
Thanks
My advice for what it's worth is learn the fretboard geography.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFbfUCVzRZA
and the Waypoints
Is the LOTW series still going? or is 2013 the end.
I think John Boulding was going to re record some of them. It is a true internet gem and such a great asset.
Did john make video 6 in the pentatonic series? He covered the D and F shape and promised the bar G shape in a future vid in video 5.
I think I can figure it out but he was describing how to play a bluesy minor pentatnic shape for any chord played using a F D or G shape. He didnt do the G shape.
Great series done a decade ago!
I find melodic passages out of altered chord shapes.
I just locate the chord and have a handful of melodic riffs I can plug in.
As I begin using these I notice melody and harmony notes in the midst of the riffs and get close to the actual melody/harmony quite quickly.
Edited by - steve davis on 09/30/2023 20:24:30
I ask no one to follow suit here but here is my version of Dixie
the first few times is mostly interweaving the melody with non harmonious scale notes --this to me dictates abrupt movement--at the last (1..11) I go to an arrangement using harmonious chord notes--these blend with the melody and float along with it--Standard scruggs style uses a few non chord notes but stays with the harmony notes more--it comes down to taste creation of phrases imo
as far as pentonic --I have seen ''better than me'' players that speak highly of it--but I just went with the regular major and minor in my fundamental brainwash
Edited by - Tractor1 on 10/01/2023 05:09:40
when speaking of chord notes--- usually---that would be the chord that is currently the correct one at that point in the song
There are many choices of chords that can be substituted for the written chord.
For instance in the right context a Dm chord can be used instead of a G7,F or a Gm instead of a C depending on the "color" wanted.
Then those new "sub" notes can be inserted melodically.
The most effective technique, I believe, for finding melodies on the fly is simply to practice playing the melody line of song after song while holding the appropriate chord. Non-chord melody notes are found in predictable places relative to whichever chord shape you are holding. (The 5-note pentatonic scale -- 60% of which are your chord notes -- is the reason why. But it's not vital that you know why. It's more important to experience the recurrence of these note locations.) After a while, ear-finger coordination takes over. Your fingers automatically go to the melody note in your head.
One further helpful hint I was taught years ago: Don't use four-fingered chords (unless you need to play the 4th string). Play the 1st string with your ring finger. Keep your pinky free. A lot of these extra notes are in pinky range (which is a very dexterous finger). With practice, that left pinky (for right-handed players) will seem like it has a mind of its own.
all notes are scale notes or accidentals -
I am wondering if that is not way beyond the OPs question--did he really want scale to know about scales or was he really needing basic scruggs arranging ideas but passed on the pentonic word from the answer he initially got--
I brought up using the correct chord and it got downplayed -but I still recommend it in this context-but will not return fire in a truce
for clarity--my basic Scruggs style is a disaster in comparison to some guys around here
Edited by - Tractor1 on 10/01/2023 06:45:01
Nobody downplayed using the written chord.
There are other harmonic choices in subs.The "coloring" of the original chord leads to other fitting improvisations if the context is maintained.
Edited by - steve davis on 10/01/2023 08:02:21
The "quick ear" hears the key and chord progression the first time through and builds a quick foundation.
Watch out for any "off-chord".
quote:
Originally posted by USAF PJAt a recent jam I asked a question about hitting melody notes on a song that is unfamiliar. Response was to learn the Pentatonic scale to assist. I know rolls in the chord progression will by default hit some melody notes, right?? But what about what was suggested?
The main reason to use pentatonic patterns in jamming is that every note will be safe and sound good. I believe that's because the major pentatonic scale eliminates the 4 and 7 notes -- the tension-inducing half-step notes mentioned by Steven earlier. He mis-typed when he said G pentatonic eliminates the D note. D is the 5 and remains. It's the C (4) that's gone. I know this was just a slip and he knows this because he correctly identified the eliminated notes C in pentatonic.
Of course, pentatonic licks, rolls, phrases and patterns don't guarantee you'll hit a melody note when improvising. They mainly keep you from hitting bad sounding notes. (Unless the song calls for bluesy notes, then major pentatonics may not be the best thing)
The only way to increase your ability to hit actual melody notes is to learn and internalize the sounds of intervals and learn the fingerboard so well that you know where they are.
I'm not there yet and I have no idea how to learn it other than repetition. Pat Cloud's Key to Five String Banjo is mostly about pentatonics and his Straight Ahead Jazz book has exercises on intervals. Neither is particularly easy to understand but they're both full of stuff to know.
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickoryquote:
Originally posted by USAF PJAt a recent jam I asked a question about hitting melody notes on a song that is unfamiliar. Response was to learn the Pentatonic scale to assist. I know rolls in the chord progression will by default hit some melody notes, right?? But what about what was suggested?
The main reason to use pentatonic patterns in jamming is that every note will be safe and sound good.
That's not the main reason I use it in jamming; rather mostly two others. (I hardly ever improvise in that way)
Granted, as I learned by ear (often on the fly), and playing the melody rather than thinking about improvising any lead/break, I see it as more about hearing/listening... a way to listen which allows me to quickly pick up melodies by ear; recognizing the sound qualities of pentatonic in various ways, esp interval quality to the key. One analogy might be like learning to listen to language; using syntax; or perhaps focusing on the words that carry weight, like nouns and verbs? When hear others speak, to be able to quickly make sense, ascertain the gist of they're saying. For most part, not really analytical., Like many things, once aware, absorbed recognize the sound qualities or structure... can't not hear it; and it mostly is subconscious, don't think about it.
Using that, also forms framework of how I visualize fretbaord, fingering, as connected pentatonic shapes and anchor points, thus guide to navigating up and down connection from one shape to the next. Not limited to playing those notes, just serving as a guide/anchoring. Similar to how folks might use chord shapes as guide, but expanded, a bit more melodic linear and transitional connection.
Edited by - banjoak on 10/02/2023 18:02:33
Geography of the fingerboard,,good one Ken------I find the layout of G tuning a perfect tool for studying chord builds ---Earl's book had it all illustrated and taught pretty advanced chords--Starting-- I learned every note by name--then I started learning to read simple melodies in books --while learning rolls --it would be something like there is a space four notes--this roll pattern will fit- just building simple arrangements --but learning where things are --at the same time
intervals--that half step-played in unison--I figure that is the biggest possible discord---the whole step showing up in -- suspended chords can go to places --that defy----It took me forever to see it's effect --was on purpose --when folks play a C chord roll --but hit that open first string- C suspended 2nd
the whole step is very useful as a dominating seventh too--It can dominate things up or down ha ha---then we have that micro tone --whole step area between 2 and 4 on the 3rd--where hours are spent hammering -bending and pulling
Edited by - Tractor1 on 10/02/2023 19:34:23
I don’t know what a pentatonic roll is but pentatonic scales can be very useful, for reasons already discussed. But I think what you really need is ear training. The ability to hear a melody and quickly find it on your instrument. There are well established techniques for achieving this. I tend to think in intervals, singing the 1-3-5 to get me in sync with the tonal center. Just a thought.
quote:
Originally posted by USAF PJGood Morning,
At a recent jam I asked a question about hitting melody notes on a song that is unfamiliar. Response was to learn the Pentatonic scale to assist. I know rolls in the chord progression will by default hit some melody notes, right?? But what about what was suggested? I know this will help, but what do you all advise? Do I insert a Pentatonic roll on Nine Pound Hammer instead of a standard roll?
Thanks
I'll try to make this as simple as possible. When unfamiliar with a song, the deck is stacked against you! You have one chance in twelve of hitting the correct note. However, If able to figure out the key of the tune, and developed a good enough ear to discern I, IV, & V chord changes, and/or recognize a few basic (cowboy) guitar chords, you've narrowed it down considerably. But I'm sure you know that already. What I'm getting at is, you're overthinking this stuff.
If you really want to know all the ins & outs of Music Theory, there is a dedicated forum for that line of study, guaranteed to turn your mind into spaghetti in no time flat! I guarantee you Earl Scruggs knew none of that. Earl simply played what sounded good to him & didn't worry about why, or what it was called.
Music is a form of expression. Like speech, music has "rules". Though as in speech the rules are often ignored, bent, or broken. In music, they are called blue notes, written as accidentals. 
Edited by - monstertone on 10/03/2023 10:17:52
quote:
Originally posted by monstertonequote:
Originally posted by USAF PJGood Morning,
At a recent jam I asked a question about hitting melody notes on a song that is unfamiliar. Response was to learn the Pentatonic scale to assist. I know rolls in the chord progression will by default hit some melody notes, right?? But what about what was suggested? I know this will help, but what do you all advise? Do I insert a Pentatonic roll on Nine Pound Hammer instead of a standard roll?
Thanks
I'll try to make this as simple as possible.
I Like it!!! Thanks JD. You did. Heading to a jam tonight, this will help. Thanks.
Page: 1 2
