I just bought a Mastertone from our local guitar shop. The owner, and I, have not been able to discern the year of manufacture or, for that matter, whether it's actually a Gibson. I would like to have it fixed up (an example would be refretted with stainless steel frets), but don't want to damage what might be a valuable piece of history.
There's plenty of things that point to post-war. A 3/16" fingerboard, high FH 20 hole tone ring, 2 piece flange, single bar tailpiece.
Additional info:
The arm rest is one piece stamped with the Gibson logo. The tailpiece is also stamped with the logo. There are two coordinator rods. No concentric rings on the back of the resonator. It is walnut with a very aged looking finish and cracked binding in places. There are no serial or FON's stamped on the neck or rim. There is remnants of adhesive where the Gison label would have been.
Any help you can offer to identify
this banjo would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance, Warren
Edited by - wcg on 09/22/2023 12:21:19
You really need to post some pictures of the banjo, but just from what you've described, I'll say it's a '70's to 80's RB250
@RioStat
Thanks for the reply. I did attach pictures but apparently they did not upload. Until I can figure out how to get pictures uploaded I will add the following:
It has "Hearts and Flowers" inlays with none on the 1st and 15th fret. I edited my post to include that it has no numbers stamped on the neck or rim. The chalked numbers in the resonator, if it ever had some, are long gone.
I looked through all the Gibson catalogs I could find online but found no match.
Warren
@RioStat
Oh yeah! It has a double cut peg head. The Gibson text is script.
quote:
Originally posted by wcg@RioStat
Thanks for the reply. I did attach pictures but apparently they did not upload. Until I can figure out how to get pictures uploaded I will add the following:
It has "Hearts and Flowers" inlays with none on the 1st and 15th fret. I edited my post to include that it has no numbers stamped on the neck or rim. The chalked numbers in the resonator, if it ever had some, are long gone.
I looked through all the Gibson catalogs I could find online but found no match.
Warren
First, you have to download photos to your BanjoHangout homepage, then when you "post" a message, such as now, scroll down to the bottom of this page, to the "Attachments" (which will show the pictures on your homepage) click on the photos you want to use, when you hit "Post Reply" the photos will show up in your post.
Ohh, also, welcome to BanjoHangout !!
Edited by - RioStat on 09/22/2023 12:56:42
no one can tell you anything about your banjos orginality by describing parts or measurments. You need to post pictures. its tricky on this site, but you can figure it out. you have to click upload photos, select the photos, then upload and attach them.
From the pictures that were uploaded in your profile the banjo looks like a Gibson copy to me.
I agree with Gabe. Copy.
As far as I know, Gibson did not make a walnut banjo with two-piece flange, hearts and flowers inlay, and double-cut peghead.
I'm not certain from the photos on your page whether that resonator is walnut or mahogany. If it's mahogany, you could possibly have a 70s-80s RB-250 pot with a copy neck. Genuine Gibson necks in that era had a serial number stamped on the back of the fiddle cut peghead and usually also Made in USA. Plus, those mahogany necks were three-piece laminated (not counting peghead ears) with the center strip being a half inch or so wide and easily visible. Mastertone was in slanted/italic letters.
Is yours a Gibson neck from some other model or time? Maybe. But no reason to think so.
Gibson-stamped clamshell tailpiece is consistent with the 70s-80s RB-250, as is the Gibson-stamped armrest if it's two-legged. Deteriorating binding on the resonator is also consistent with some years of that model.
@RioStat
Thanks Scott!
I am new to banjohangout and can certainly use some help navigating this forum. I'm surprised you could see the pictures because I hadn't got to the point where I selected them(didn't know how anyway).
I agree, it could be a copy, but that leaves me with other questions. Why would someone go through the effort of building a copy that's not period correct, or at least believable? It's not a three ply pot, although it could have glue joint inserts added. 70's issue tail piece? 3/16" fingerboard? Weird things like that, and easy to get right.
I won't be disappointed if it turns out to be a copy because that will give me the liberty to work it over and make it into a great banjo. I've made 6 banjos to date(been playing for over 50 years) and everyone of them has sounded better then any Mastertone I've heard...so far.
Doesn't strike me as a real post-WWII Gibson style 3 or 4.
My unprofessional opinion is that this is a later copy or "Masterclone".
If it plays well and sounds nice, nothing wrong with that!! Enjoy!
quote:
Originally posted by wcgI agree, it could be a copy, but that leaves me with other questions. Why would someone go through the effort of building a copy that's not period correct, or at least believable?
That happens all the time. Or at least it did as far back as the 70s when copies became extremely popular.
I owned one such nothing-like-a-real-Gibson copy. Had it made for me in 1973. It was curly maple, reddish color, single ivoroid binding (no white-black purfling), flying eagle inlay, roasewood board, full 1-1/4-inch nut, and undersized double-cut peghead. Rim was 3-ply and tone ring was unplated, unpolished, bronze with casting pits. Sounded great. Still does. When it needed work over 20 years ago, I had "Gibson" in the peghead replaced with my own name (even though I'm not the builder) and "Mastertone" replaced by "Mazeltone." It's my avatar.
I've seen plenty of conversions where people have the neck of their choosing made rather than a model-correct 5-string version of the original 4-string. I suppose that's less of a deviation than what you're talking about.
I agree with Ken. It looks to me like a 1970's RB250 pot with a prewar style neck. The wood is probably mahogany, not walnut.
Why do people make copies that are not true to originals or even close enough to be believable? I don't know but I have seen plenty of Mastertone copies that are made that way. One dead giveaway is when someone puts an ebony fingerboard on a Mastertone copy. They might think it looks good but nothing else screams fake that loudly.
Look at the three honestly labeled Gibson copies currently in the Hangout classifieds.
I believe each has one or more "Gibson didn't do that" elements.
I agree with the folks suggesting it's a 1970s/80s 250, perhaps a TB (tenor) that someone converted with what looks like a good 5 string neck.
The tailpiece with one bar across the front (and Gibson stamp) is a giveaway for the 1970s/80s 250. But of course tailpieces are easily changeable and inexpensive, so it's not a sure sign.
If the pot has "T" tabs for the resonator attachment thumbscrews that's a sure sign of a 70s Gibson. As opposed to more usual "L" tabs.
Does it feel, play and sound good? Then, good for you in obtaining it, if you didn't overpay.
I thank all of you for you thoughtful and knowledgeable replies. At this point I feel comfortable performing whatever modifications are necessary to make this a good sounding and playing banjo.
I believe Mark is correct about it being mahogany...used an eye loupe to see past the thick, aged, and cracked finish. The fingerboard is rosewood, and yes, the resonator is attached with the "T" tabs.
Can anyone tell me when Gibson went to a 3/16" fingerboard? The neck looks and feels Gibson.
We need clear, well-lit, closeup pics of the banjo from all angles, also the inside of the pot with the resonator removed.
Does the arm rest have one or two legs?
Does the tailpiece have "Gibson" engraved on it?
If so, it looks like the pot could be from a 70's RB-250. These were often finished black (unless this one has been refinished).
The neck and resonator look to have been replaced by 3rd-party copies.
The resonator might be original, but has been refinished to match the neck.
quote:
Originally posted by wcgCan anyone tell me when Gibson went to a 3/16" fingerboard? The neck looks and feels Gibson.
If Gibson went to a 3/16-inch fingerboard, I'd guess it was Greg Rich era. Possibly earlier if they used it on the original 1984 version of the Earl Scruggs banjo.
The binding on the 70s neck in hands right now is 1/8-inch tall. I assume that's the fretboard thickness as well.
One would not expect to find a double-cut headstock neck on a 2-piece flange banjo. More detailed photos would be more helpful, but I feel fairly confident that this is a rare Heinz model.
quote:thanks for that explanation. I have been on the hangout for more than 20 years and half the time have problems trying to upload pictures to a stream like this one. Nobody explained that to me.
Tell Eric to send you a check!
Originally posted by RioStatquote:
Originally posted by wcg@RioStat
Thanks for the reply. I did attach pictures but apparently they did not upload. Until I can figure out how to get pictures uploaded I will add the following:
It has "Hearts and Flowers" inlays with none on the 1st and 15th fret. I edited my post to include that it has no numbers stamped on the neck or rim. The chalked numbers in the resonator, if it ever had some, are long gone.
I looked through all the Gibson catalogs I could find online but found no match.
WarrenFirst, you have to download photos to your BanjoHangout homepage, then when you "post" a message, such as now, scroll down to the bottom of this page, to the "Attachments" (which will show the pictures on your homepage) click on the photos you want to use, when you hit "Post Reply" the photos will show up in your post.
Ohh, also, welcome to BanjoHangout !!
quote:
Originally posted by wcgAt this point I feel comfortable performing whatever modifications are necessary to make this a good sounding and playing banjo.
That's been my approach with my own heavily modded 70s Gibson parts banjo.
Treat it as a player and have no reservation about doing whatever I want to it. Have to admit I've spent stupid money doing things. But I'm old, retired, and not planning to buy any more banjos.
quote:
Originally posted by wcgI believe Mark is correct about it being mahogany...used an eye loupe to see past the thick, aged, and cracked finish. The fingerboard is rosewood, and yes, the resonator is attached with the "T" tabs.
If there are no screw holes or ghosts from L brackets ever being installed, then that suggests the rim was only ever used with T brackets as in a 70s-80s Gibson pot. Not proof, but a good sign.
Two other details are in the resonator: A finished interior (stained and very smooth as if with a thin coat of low-gloss lacquer). And the wall lugs screwed into threaded metal inserts instead of directly into the sidewalls. If you want to check the wall lugs for inserts, be careful unscrewing them. If they're in tight they might bring the inserts with them. The inserts are spiral knurled or fluted instead of threaded. They go into the sidewall with less than a full revolution.
I don't know if Gibson resonators other than the 70s-80s model were made this way.
