Sounds like a great idea!

Generally speaking a DD setting of around 91 gets you in the ballpark of G - G#. After that it’s up to your ear to tell you the best setting for the sound that you want from your banjo.

I have the “Korg TM-60C Combo Tuner Metronome + CM-200 Contact Microphone” which when clipped on to the tension ring or hoop of a banjo gives the “exact” pitch of the banjo head. This was designed to give accurate readings when clipped onto wind instruments such as the bells of brass horns as well as stringed instruments such as guitar headstocks and banjo. This work's "crazy good" and is something not many banjo players know about. It has other useful features as well. 

johnsonstring.com/cgi-bin/musi...Ib9_D_BwE

korg.com/us/products/tuners/tm_60/

Interesting idea for placement of the tuner. I'll try that with my Daddario and see if it picks up the note the tone ring makes.

Do you mean that there is a  chart for drums, for a specified diameter head, that tells the reading on a DrumDial that corresponds to a specific pitch?

  Such as:  12" head,  78 DD, pitch C# ?

quote:

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Originally posted by Pick-A-Lick

Generally speaking a DD setting of around 91 gets you in the ballpark of G - G#. After that it’s up to your ear to tell you the best setting for the sound that you want from your banjo.

I have the “Korg TM-60C Combo Tuner Metronome + CM-200 Contact Microphone” which when clipped on to the tension ring or hoop of a banjo gives the “exact” pitch of the banjo head. This was designed to give accurate readings when clipped onto wind instruments such as the bells of brass horns as well as stringed instruments such as guitar headstocks and banjo. This work's "crazy good" and is something not many banjo players know about. It has other useful features as well. 

johnsonstring.com/cgi-bin/musi...Ib9_D_BwE

korg.com/us/products/tuners/tm_60/

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Contact Korg for your referral fee! You just sold one. I think I paid about $47 on Amazon. Yes, I am obsessive, but I have poor hearing. And several banjos to keep in line!

Thank you for the links!

As to the original question in the post, I think you are going to get several responses about Drum Dials, and that every banjo is going to be different, and that you need to go by what sounds good to you. All, no doubt true, but reference points are helpful as a starting point (IMHO). Particularly if there are hearing issues.

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex Z

Do you mean that there is a  chart for drums, for a specified diameter head, that tells the reading on a DrumDial that corresponds to a specific pitch?

  Such as:  12" head,  78 DD, pitch C# ?

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Hi Alex, my dial came with a drum chart I can email you a copy if you need it.

I think all drum dials are a little bit different, at least that's what I have heard from other discussions on this forum.  People complain that their drum dial doesn't have the same reading as someone else's. Mine is a digital one, which is probably different from the analog ones.

They are not meant to produce a finite measurement like a micrometer or a depth gauge which they resemble, but they provide a repeatable standard which enables you to get the same head tightness every time with the same drum dial.

If you read the instructions that come with them, they say "get each drum in your set to where you like it, write that down, then you can tighten it to that tension every time". Not "89 for a snare drum 85 for a tom tom, etc etc.". It enables you to tweak the tension on your drums very easily and quickly.

I think that producing a chart of what drum dial setting would produce what head note is counterproductive in that first, it would be inaccurate and second it would preclude ever learning what note sounds best by listening to the banjo.

It’s not so much that every banjo is different but that every drum dial is different.

quote:

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Originally posted by Wayne2001

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex Z

Do you mean that there is a  chart for drums, for a specified diameter head, that tells the reading on a DrumDial that corresponds to a specific pitch?

  Such as:  12" head,  78 DD, pitch C# ?

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Hi Alex, my dial came with a drum chart I can email you a copy if you need it.

Thanks, I have a Drum Dial, with a chart too.  Shows the size of drum and a recommended range of readings, although no pitch that goes with the readings.

Seems like the poster is looking to develop a match of readings to pitch.

IMPORTANT………
In my above post about the Korg TM-60C, I neglected to note the following information which is why I posted in the first place:

When using the tuner's remote clip-on for tuning banjo head;

Attach the clip to the tension hoop and using a drum stick or such (I actually use a long pencil with the eraser tip hitting the Head) TAP TEST in the area next to the attachment point of the tuner clip. My tuner gives a solid reading that does not jump around. 

Once you have the head tuned to the note you want, take a drum dial reading and make note of it. This way you can use the drum dial to match the tension readings all around the head and for future head adjustments as well. 

" . . . learning what note sounds best by listening to the banjo."

Right.  And what sounds best may not be an exact note.  For example, my Prucha sounds best at about 3/4 of the way between G and G#.  A single pitch in the A=440 scale may not be exactly optimal.   My final adjustments to head tension change the sound yet often don't change the DrumDial readings.

A DrumDial is a very valuable tool for (a) getting the head at even tension all around and (b) getting in the ballpark of a desired note and (c) getting back close to the desired note if the head stretches.

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex Z

" . . . learning what note sounds best by listening to the banjo."

Right.  And what sounds best may not be an exact note.  For example, my Prucha sounds best at about 3/4 of the way between G and G#.  A single pitch in the A=440 scale may not be exactly optimal.   My final adjustments to head tension change the sound yet often don't change the DrumDial readings.

A DrumDial is a very valuable tool for (a) getting the head at even tension all around and (b) getting in the ballpark of a desired note and (c) getting back close to the desired note if the head stretches.

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Agreed!

As you say, a banjo head is best not tuned to a note on the chromatic scale, but somewhere in between in order to avoid sympathetic frequency problems, whatever they may be. I know that my old Granada archtop tone ring rings at an A, and the banjo sounds better in A than G. I wouldn't want to tune the head to an A as well unless I wanted to break glass or something.

Why would you need a chart? Start at 89 and adjust up or down a few notches to taste. There you go, that's the entire chart.

Without a calibrated dial, standardized head thickness, standardized rim diameter, and validated tightening protocol, any direct number comparisons are meaningless. Some people set A = 440hz, some set A = 432 hz. And there's no accounting for taste. 

Quite correct.

I think G# is one of the myths of urban or rural origin. Wolf tones are spooky and can lurk hidden in the forest of ears.

Pick-A-Lick
Here is what my Korg Clip looks like. The clip is soft and rubbery on both sides, and if the tension hoop is the thing that is held on by the 24 (?) hooks that go through the flange, I have to plead to being clueless as to how to get this clip to grab on to anything (except the flange, if I removed the resonator).

quote:

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Originally posted by Pick-A-Lick

IMPORTANT………
In my above post about the Korg TM-60C, I neglected to note the following information which is why I posted in the first place:

When using the tuner's remote clip-on for tuning banjo head;

Attach the clip to the tension hoop and using a drum stick or such (I actually use a long pencil with the eraser tip hitting the Head) TAP TEST in the area next to the attachment point of the tuner clip. My tuner gives a solid reading that does not jump around. 

Once you have the head tuned to the note you want, take a drum dial reading and make note of it. This way you can use the drum dial to match the tension readings all around the head and for future head adjustments as well. 

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Mike,

Is there anyway you could post a picture of this?

thanks,

ken

The InsTuner app for your smart phone is free and works great in a quite room. Set the phone on your knee by the banjo head tap the head and look at the dial not the digital. Works great for me every time. Hope this helps.

The high G at 1st string 15th fret on one of my banjos creates all kinds of sympathetic vibrations on the other strings. The open 5th, especially gets going. A nasal metallic sound with a hint of out-of-tuneness forms quickly following the attack and then fades with the note decay. 

This effect is less noticeable during actual playing in which my fretting fingers may keep other strings from vibrating or the other strings are soon fretted or picked, killing the previous vibrations.

Tightening the head fights this, as does adjusting the tailpiece. I'll end up at a DrumDial reading that's not solidly on any one number and a head note that I can't say is dead-on any actual note.

This is anecdotal evidence for me that no specific DD number or tap note (or bridge weight or tailpiece design, height, or angle for that matter) is right for all instruments.

Now that I think of it, my other main player also has noticeable sympathetic vibrations at that same note, but they're not as annoying or unpleasant.

Apologize for the delayed response. It’s a busy weekend.
Here is Nechville with full tone ring and a RK with a newly installed head about a month ago which was tap tuned to an A using this method at that time. It looks like it’s stretched a bit so I’ll have to tighten it some. As you can see I keep my Nechville head cranked pretty tight so it really barks. It's very loud and it growls nicely with GHS PF175 medium light strings. The strings have been muted on both banjos by tying a towel around the neck. A piece of blue painter's tape covers the annoying lights on top of the tuner because they affected the the picture. 
Both banjos pictured are freshly tuned to an open G standard tuning. There are no sympathetic vibrations that I can detect. This Korg tuner is highly accurate and the clip is designed to clip to a stringed instrument's headstock or the bell of a sax, trumpet, etc. If the towel that is muting strings in the pictures is removed, the banjo's register the actual tuning of each string, or a G chord when strummed.

After I posted the pictures and information above, I checked the head tension of my other banjos in the same fashion using my KORG tuner. I discovered the following:
This system works well on banjos with full weight tone rings (at least in my estimation, your mileage might vary)
My Nechville with a Hybrid tone hoop registers well on the tuner but it’s bit more touchy to get a good reading when tapping. Make crisp deliberate taps (raps) closer to the tuner clip.
My Turtle Hill Woody with Tony Pass maple block rim is the least friendly but with repeated tries I was able to get a tuner reading.
Once readings are taken with with the tuner and then a corresponding drum dial reading is taken and noted, a drum dial can be used exclusively for future head tuning events.

You mentioned a DrumDial setting "around 91 gets you in the ballpark of G - G#."

Two questions:

  1.  What is the DrumDial setting that corresponds to the B notes on the tuner as shown?

  2.  When tuner shows a B, and you tap the head, do you hear a B also?

Thanks for the information.

Mike - this was very helpful and your time appreciated. I should have realized that the clip needed to attach to the head AND the tension hoop, but I did not.

I'll try this on a hybrid tonering Nechville, a Bishline with a standard heavy tonering, and Gibson - but this is an archtop, so we'll see what complications ensue.

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex Z

You mentioned a DrumDial setting "around 91 gets you in the ballpark of G - G#."

Two questions:

  1.  What is the DrumDial setting that corresponds to the B notes on the tuner as shown?

  2.  When tuner shows a B, and you tap the head, do you hear a B also?

Thanks for the information.

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Alex, 

A person proficient in head "tap tuning" or "top scratching" will hear a B also, yes. So, play a B on the top string and then tap or scratch and you should hear it. If your after a G head setting, play a G on the top string and adjust your head tap tone to that. Some folks can hear it better than others. 

Right after I took the above pictures of my Nechville and my RK, I zeroed in my Drum Dial and took a reading.

The Nechville reading was right at 92 which is the reading Tom Nechville suggests the new banjos that leave his shop are set.  I have researched his postings on BHO as well as on other sources, as well on the Nechville website, and he suggests 91-92 head settings on the Drum Dial. I firmly believe that folks who have played a Nechville and not been impressed have actually played the banjo with an un-tensioned or under-tensioned head and/or old strings. 

The RK DD setting was just a scitch below 91 which is down from the 92 I set a few of weeks ago when I installed a new head so I'll be adjusting that (as mentioned previously).

I'll mention the following in case it's of interest to folks who are doing their own setups:

The Banjo Ben Clark learning website has videos (paid subscribers only) that feature interviews with Steve Huber covering among other things, various aspects of banjo setup. One of these episodes features Steve's tips on tailpiece settings. Banjos that leave his shop have the tailpiece set just touching or slightly above the tension hoop. The end of the tailpiece nearest the bridge (toward the nut) is set 5/16" above the head with an adjustment window of plus or minus 1/16" ( so between 1/4" min and 3/8" max above the head). Anything tighter chokes off the sound. So, I took Steve's advice and set my banjo tailpieces @ 5/16". That coupled with a 92 DD setting and GHS PF175 Medium Light strings gives me the sound I'm looking for. FWIW, all my banjos wear REMO USA top frosted heads. Of course, your mileage may vary. 

Thanks for the information.

So  as a couple of points on the theoretical "chart," for your banjos with the heads that are on them:

   -- The Nechville registers a tiny bit above B on the tuner and corresponds to a DrumDial of 92.

   -- The RK registers between G and G# on the tuner and corresponds to a tiny bit below 91 on the DrumDial.

Maybe others will offer additional points, and we can plot them out.  See if there is any consistent relationship of tap tone and DrumDial reading among flathead banjos.

Mike,
Thanks for the picture.
ken