My 1890s SS Stewart doesn't have a truss rod either. It plays just fine after 130 years.

That would be in keeping with a Vega banjo neck of that era.  The ones I've seen had an ebony strip in the middle of the neck and no truss rod.  Wyatt was making an accurate reproduction.

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

That would be in keeping with a Vega banjo neck of that era.  The ones I've seen had an ebony strip in the middle of the neck and no truss rod.  Wyatt was making an accurate reproduction.

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Wyatt did remarkable work. The neck is pretty old and still in great shape. I am sure it will be fine but want to use this a daily player,  Got a set of Deering Vintage light strings on her, I think she might handle slightly heavier gauge?

You are concerned because you can't adjust a neck that doesn't need to be adjusted. Interesting.

I almost never put an adjustable truss rod in the necks I make, and have only done so in the past when a customer insisted on having one. I would refuse to do so at this point. My view on it is this. If the neck is made right to start with, it should not need "adjustment", and I have seen more than a few necks which have been ruined by folks who don't know what they are doing adjusting them.

A lot of folks seem to think the adjustable truss rod is intended for adjusting action, and that is simply not what they are for.

I think of those things as a marketing ploy. I don't build banjos for a "market", and if someone insists on an adjustable neck they don't want, and won't get one of my banjos.

I build mine with carbon fiber reinforcement bars and so far every banjo neck I ever made has stayed where it needs to be.

I have a 1924 original tubby. It has had steel strings for decades. No sign of warping.

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Originally posted by OldPappy

You are concerned because you can't adjust a neck that doesn't need to be adjusted. Interesting.

I almost never put an adjustable truss rod in the necks I make, and have only done so in the past when a customer insisted on having one. I would refuse to do so at this point. My view on it is this. If the neck is made right to start with, it should not need "adjustment", and I have seen more than a few necks which have been ruined by folks who don't know what they are doing adjusting them.

A lot of folks seem to think the adjustable truss rod is intended for adjusting action, and that is simply not what they are for.

I think of those things as a marketing ploy. I don't build banjos for a "market", and if someone insists on an adjustable neck they don't want, and won't get one of my banjos.

I build mine with carbon fiber reinforcement bars and so far every banjo neck I ever made has stayed where it needs to be.

Actually ,that is not what i was concerned about, I would just as soon not have to worry about neck adjustment at all. I was mostly looking for others experience here as it seems that all the banjo makers these days seem to put truss rods in their banjo's, at least all the comercial builders.

Thanks for your insight though, I had a Girrard mandolin with the carbon rod in the neck that was a work of art.

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As others have posted, Wyatt made Vega necks that were more accurate than most (he disliked using the 27" and 28" scales on the larger pots where those sizes were correct). Vega did not use truss rods until after the Gibson patents expired and Wyatt did not use them on his copies of those necks.

There are many of us with original Vega necks that handle metal strings just fine. Mine have much heavier than today's average tension or, as they were called back in the day, Medium.

"it seems that all the banjo makers these days seem to put truss rods in their banjo's, at least all the comercial builders."

Yes, they do. That is what I meant when I said "I think of those things as a marketing ploy". People expect them, think they are important, so if it helps sell a banjo the makers put them in.

IMHO, routing the channel required for an adjustable truss rod greatly weakens the neck, especially at the transition from the shaft to the peghead, which is the weakest point due to grain run out, and where most neck breaks occur.

A banjo neck is already thin at that transition, and making it hollow there is something I will no longer consider doing. I have fixed too many banjo and guitar necks which were snapped completely off at the transition when the instrument was dropped or knocked off a stand.

I have only had to fix one of my banjo necks which was broken by a dog knocking it off a stand and sending it across the room. Than neck did crack, but the carbon fiber rod prevented a complete break.

Wyatt built without question what may be argued to be the highest quality necks to be put on open back banjos. Few artisans have surpassed the work he created.

Your neck is fine. It is most likely higher quality than any original Fairbanks or Vega neck. I keep steel strings on most of my open backs. Bacons, Whyte Ladies and the like. All the necks have held true for over one hundred years. No truss rods.

That banjo you have will be playable long after you or I leave this earth.

The last I heard from Wyatt, he was using a truss rod of his own make with threaded anchors in both ends of the neck, and the rod had a right hand thread on one end and a left hand thread on the other, as did the anchors. 

His description of it was that the neck itself became part of the truss system, and he liked this because it was lighter, which he felt was a benefit.  He was using this on Gibson type necks.

I have an old disassembled Epiphone jazz guitar neck with a system pretty much like that.  Back in the day it was called a "compression rod", as opposed to the Gibson single rod going at an arc called a "tension rod", later adopted by Fender.

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Originally posted by Banjercat

I recently purchased a 1925 Vega Style M tubaphone conversion with a beautiful Wyatt Fawley 5 string conversion neck. While installing a new head on her today I have discovered there is no truss rod in the neck... I am just worried about the lack of a truss rod. What is you all's experience here? Thanks!

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I am going to have to politely disagree, a little bit, with all of my more educated breathren here.  Over the last 50 plus years of picking and shopping, I have seen a whole lot of old Stewarts, Washburns, Fairbanks, and early Vega banjos that had warped necks, many unplayable.  Steel strings didn't become popular until about 1910.  Before that, banjos were strung with gut, and they were usually tuned lower, to a standard A tuning, rather than standard C.  So there was a lot less tension on the necks.  When folks started putting steel on the old banjos, a lot of them eventually bent.  Now, Wyatt made a wonderful neck, as was said, and I don't think you need to worry about the strength of it, but I would definitely string the banjo with light or extra light guage strings, not medium, and don't crank it up above normal pitch for the various tunings.  For example, stick to open G (gDGBD), don't tighten it up to open A (aEAC#E).  Just my two cents.

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

The last I heard from Wyatt, he was using a truss rod of his own make with threaded anchors in both ends of the neck, and the rod had a right hand thread on one end and a left hand thread on the other, as did the anchors. 

His description of it was that the neck itself became part of the truss system, and he liked this because it was lighter, which he felt was a benefit.  He was using this on Gibson type necks.

I have an old disassembled Epiphone jazz guitar neck with a system pretty much like that.  Back in the day it was called a "compression rod", as opposed to the Gibson single rod going at an arc called a "tension rod", later adopted by Fender.

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This is interesting. Would it be visible  from the heel? I have become less concerned about the neck, thanks to all the input but would still enjoy knowing and be interested in the construction method of my particular neck. What I see at the heel is just the maple with the Ebony strip in the center. He was indeed a master of the craft, I've no doubt.

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Originally posted by Banjercat

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

The last I heard from Wyatt, he was using a truss rod of his own make with threaded anchors in both ends of the neck, and the rod had a right hand thread on one end and a left hand thread on the other, as did the anchors. 

His description of it was that the neck itself became part of the truss system, and he liked this because it was lighter, which he felt was a benefit.  He was using this on Gibson type necks.

I have an old disassembled Epiphone jazz guitar neck with a system pretty much like that.  Back in the day it was called a "compression rod", as opposed to the Gibson single rod going at an arc called a "tension rod", later adopted by Fender.

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This is interesting. Would it be visible  from the heel? I have become less concerned about the neck, thanks to all the input but would still enjoy knowing and be interested in the construction method of my particular neck. What I see at the heel is just the maple with the Ebony strip in the center. He was indeed a master of the craft, I've no doubt.

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The old Vegas with the ebony strip, just have a lamination down the center—no other reinforcement.  Martin did the same thing with guitars early on, but steel strings guitars had too much tension for that to work properly. Banjos have much less tension.

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Originally posted by Don Borchelt

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Originally posted by Banjercat

I recently purchased a 1925 Vega Style M tubaphone conversion with a beautiful Wyatt Fawley 5 string conversion neck. While installing a new head on her today I have discovered there is no truss rod in the neck... I am just worried about the lack of a truss rod. What is you all's experience here? Thanks!

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I am going to have to politely disagree, a little bit, with all of my more educated breathren here.  Over the last 50 plus years of picking and shopping, I have seen a whole lot of old Stewarts, Washburns, Fairbanks, and early Vega banjos that had warped necks, many unplayable.  Steel strings didn't become popular until about 1910.  Before that, banjos were strung with gut, and they were usually tuned lower, to a standard A tuning, rather than standard C.  So there was a lot less tension on the necks.  When folks started putting steel on the old banjos, a lot of them eventually bent.  Now, Wyatt made a wonderful neck, as was said, and I don't think you need to worry about the strength of it, but I would definitely string the banjo with light or extra light guage strings, not medium, and don't crank it up above normal pitch for the various tunings.  For example, stick to open G (gDGBD), don't tighten it up to open A (aEAC#E).  Just my two cents.

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"C" or the pitch that is currently called "drop C" for some reason, became the standard pitch by about 1884 and the wide and popular use is well documented (with the usual exceptions that prove the rule).  This is despite the music in America being printed in A until about 1908/9, the banjo was treated as a transposing instrument reading in A but sounding in C (much like Bb horns read in C).

Yes, wire strings became more popular in the teens with plectrum style players, finger style players stuck to their gut or silk well into the 1920s until nobody cared anymore (with many holdouts that continued to use gut if they could find them until nylon came out after WW2... WW1 caused a major shortage of strings and WW2 ended silk imports for obvious reasons.

That said, when the nostalgic style of "old time" or "hillbilly" music was taking form, many banjoists started using wire as it had been a super inexpensive compromise from the mid 1880s on.  By that I mean we can document instances where people might have settled for wire due to economical situations (but no doubt would have preferred gut).  This nostalgic "old time" throwback of synthetic "hillbilly" musicians likely found the use of wire strings to add a degree of "authenticity" to their act.

To quantify what Joel is talking about, steel (he calls them "wire") strings in a light gauge set: 10-12-14-22(wound)-10 tuned to standard G tuning, 26.5" scale has a total string tension of 71#.

Nylon in a 22-27-33-25(silver plated copper wound)-22 set, same scale & tuning, has a total string tension of 43#, close to half that of the steel strings.

The last instrument I acquired was a modern take on a small body, 12 fret, slot head Martin guitar built by a luthier friend. I asked him about truss rods. He was offended. He effectively said "I build and install necks exactly right in the first place. Not like Gibson, almost near enough and then adjust". He did put in a carbon fibre rod, modern equivalent to your ebony strip, so his precision build will last. So I wouldn't worry and just enjoy a great banjo.

The amount of relief in the neck and the string height above the frets work together with the player's picking mechanics.  There is certainly some benefit it being able to set up the banjo to personal preferences, not just to the relief that one person thinks it ought to be for all players  

Adjustability is useful to me. 

I got a Style M Tubaphone with a reproduction neck from Wyatt probably 20 or more years ago. It has been strung with light gauge (10-11-13-22-10) strings that entire time. It has been my workhorse banjo for most of that time. It is still as good as new. Wyatt built fabulous necks and you should not worry about warping. The same goes for almost anything built by Fairbanks or Vega. I have Electric #65 and it has had steel strings on it since I bought it many years ago.

Bill Rickard wrote he never had neck returns until he began to use truss rods

And it’s how one takes care

Since Wyatts pegheads were solid is it possible the truss is installed backwards and adjusted from the heel

Building that way allows a billboard for inlays like Gryphons, no truss rod cover?

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Originally posted by hbick2

I got a Style M Tubaphone with a reproduction neck from Wyatt probably 20 or more years ago. It has been strung with light gauge (10-11-13-22-10) strings that entire time. It has been my workhorse banjo for most of that time. It is still as good as new. Wyatt built fabulous necks and you should not worry about warping. The same goes for almost anything built by Fairbanks or Vega. I have Electric #65 and it has had steel strings on it since I bought it many years ago.

Thank you! This is the sort of thing I want to hear. I appreciate the string gauge mention as well. !

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Originally posted by Helix

Bill Rickard wrote he never had neck returns until he began to use truss rods

And it’s how one takes care

Since Wyatts pegheads were solid is it possible the truss is installed backwards and adjusted from the heel

Building that way allows a billboard for inlays like Gryphons, no truss rod cover?

No, there is definitely not any sort of truss rod in the neck, but the good folk here on BHO have assuaged any concerns I may have had over this. This is why I ask questions and appriciate BHO so much.

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

That would be in keeping with a Vega banjo neck of that era.  The ones I've seen had an ebony strip in the middle of the neck and no truss rod.  Wyatt was making an accurate reproduction.

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The material used for the black center strip of prewar Vega banjos is not ebony. It is ebonized hardwood that decomposes over time.

Wyatt did not use ebony either, as far as I can tell. But the modern dyed veneers do  not seem to be decomposing the way the prewar dyed veneers do.

Bob Smakula

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Originally posted by Bob Smakula

 

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The material used for the black center strip of prewar Vega banjos is not ebony. It is ebonized hardwood that decomposes over time.

Wyatt did not use ebony either, as far as I can tell. But the modern dyed veneers do  not seem to be decomposing the way the prewar dyed veneers do.

 

Bob Smakula

 

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That's very interesting. I worked on a 1920s No.9 and there was a crack in the heel on the black strip at the place where the dowel goes in.  I thought it was from the dowel, but maybe the dyed veneer had deteriorated.  I have no idea how they did that back then.

The modern dyed veneer they make pool cues from is made in Switzerland and France, mostly from (true) poplar or sycamore, with some pressure process and the maximum thickness available is 1mm. I don't know how they do it, but apparently it holds up. Custom pool cues are glued up with epoxy so as not to introduce water.

I recently purchased a 1925 Vega Style M tubaphone conversion with a beautiful Wyatt Fawley 5 string conversion neck. While installing a new head on her today I have discovered there is no truss rod in the neck, a thin strip of ebony only.

You changed the head only, looking down on the heel so the "ebonized" strip is all that shows.  

We see no pictures of the headstock or whether there is an adjustment port inside the rim under the Tub-a-phone.  That port would allow adjustment of the truss rod without removing the neck.  Fawley, ODE  and others can do this.  I remember reading this here, If Mr. Fawley adjusted from both ends, I would love to see that innovation.

I do resist cutting up scarce exotics for demo samples.

My 20's Vega 17 fret neck also has the Pear heel cap where the black had worn through.

The neck pieces are flipped and rotated, just like Levan's sample which shows the "A" presentation.  The "B" presentation shows a "V" which is still as strong, but not as pretty. Building necks that way gives a century and more of music if cared for, the pieces press against each other. 

I really appreciate all the wonderful information and feed back my friends! Great help. I have just discovered my pot actually dates to 1913 rather than 1925 as I had been told by the seller, I am more and more enchanted with this banjo every day!