* * * * * * * * * * FIRST VIDEO ADDED * * * * * * * * * * *
Gibson Mastertone TB-3 (disassembled) -- 1926? 1927?
Feedback invited. What looks right? What looks wrong?
Thanks!
* * * * * * * * * * SECOND VIDEO ADDED - MARCH 27th * * * * * * * * * * *
It has a table of content in the description so you can jump around to the parts that are interesting.
* * * * * * * * * * PHOTOS added in post below - MARCH 30th * * * * * * * * * * *
Finally, I can see the splice where wood was added to the rim, presumably to convert a rim that was for a ball bearing tone ring to hold an archtop 40 hole tone ring. See below.
Edited by - randybartlett on 03/30/2023 21:39:06
Real McCoy
The "weird" reso screws are correct for the year. The smaller co-rods, and lags in the neck are also correct. 8-32 thread (I think) instead of the usual 10-32. These items are the same as on my 1927 TB-1.
Nice find!
Edited by - Eric A on 03/24/2023 15:14:09
quote:
Originally posted by Eric AThe "weird" reso screws are correct for the year. The smaller co-rods, and lags in the neck are also correct. 8-32 thread (I think) instead of the usual 10-32. These items are the same as on my 1927 TB-1.
Nice find!
8 - 32 is correct Eric, the 10 - 32 did not come out until a few years later.
That TB3 looks all original and genuine Gibson.
No way to account for the tone ring, unless the rim and resonator were FON stamped, chalked, and mated together with the reso hardware (yet never cut or drilled for a ball bearing tone ring) then sat around for a year before being lathe turned for the cast archy ring.
Just another of numerous anomalies found among pre-war Gibsons !
Who knows what was going on in Kalamazoo 90+ years ago !
Most, but not all, of the parts you show are same as my 1926 style 3, 8226. Check Spanns Guide To Gibson, FON's page 79; 8278 is listed as 26.
Guide To Gibson, App A, page 271. Hex head resonator screws typically are found on 25-26 but sometimes there are thumb screws. Thumb screws are on 27 and later. 25-26 have grooved stretcher bands with thin tipped hooks, 27 have notched bands (video 5minutes) and fat tipped hooks (as does yours). 26 ball bearing style 3 use 2-piece tube and plate tone rings with holes in the rim and tube for the ball bearing/spring/washer combo. 27 has one piece tube/plate with cast brass tone ring.
I think you have a last run 26 that incorporates the first use of the notched band and a 1-piece tube/plate just before adoption of the newer 27 design features that abandon the ball bearing/spring concept in 27.
Correct those are BB era style thumbscrews for the resonator.
I'm suspect of all the finish on the top and sides of the rim where the tone ring sits
My experience has seen a bit of stain on the top of rim,but never on the sides of the tonering seat. To me it suggests an altered rim to fit the cast ring ,from BB, as others have mentioned.
Otherwise what I've seen is consistent with that era.
Interesting that it's a 40 hole,
first run cast rings were no hole rings.
Perhaps ring conversion was performed several yrs after it left the factory.
Nice banjo,good luck
Everett
quote:
Originally posted by O.D.I'm suspect of all the finish on the top and sides of the rim where the tone ring sits
My experience has seen a bit of stain on the top of rim,but never on the sides of the tonering seat. To me it suggests an altered rim to fit the cast ring ,from BB, as others have mentioned.
Otherwise what I've seen is consistent with that era.
Interesting that it's a 40 hole,
first run cast rings were no hole rings.
Perhaps ring conversion was performed several yrs after it left the factory.
Nice banjo,good luck
Everett
This is exactly what we said in the first thread on this banjo
You are right. I did not see thread #1 until AFTER I chipped in here. #1 had all the right answers.
I mentioned the stain and finish on the top of the rim.
I didn't see any references to that in previous posts.
Does not look like Gibson work to me. I've seen a number of pre war rims including several of my own that did not look like that.
Has anyone seen finish on the top of the rim from the Gibson factory like that?
It calls question to whether or not this alteration was done by Gibson or not and if the ring is genuine Gibson.
Alteration could have been done anytime after 1926.
How do you think it would affect value if that were the case,?
Am I correct in thinking a BB rim would have required building up to accept an archtop ring?
quote:
Originally posted by lightgaugeAm I correct in thinking a BB rim would have required building up to accept an archtop ring?
I think so.
You can see the added wood on the rim in the video.
Ev
Does the appearance of an original uncut label not lend to the idea of it being done by the Gibson factory?
Maybe I'm missing g something
How would the label be affected by adding wood to the rim?
Ev
Is the seam for the added rim top not under the label or am I missing something? The top of the label appears to me to come near the top edge, well above where a seam would be, I think?
Too close to tell for me.
I suppose the finish on the top of rim could have been done by anyone after it left the factory
I think a lot of uncertainty with these banjos would be eliminated if they marked all of them like 1927 rim and ring
I'm thinking that this could be a 1926 factory assembly, which was originally ball-bearing, that the owner sent back to the factory to be upgraded to a solid-top 40 hole archtop. The upgrade would have been done in very late 1927 or more likely in 1928 (as the 1927's had NO-hole rings).
The rim would either be a complete replacement (with the original serial number stamped into the replacement), or it might have been one of the "BB to solid archtop rim conversions" that Gibson did, as has been documented in the past in this forum.
You should examine the rim very carefully for the "joint line" where the BB part of the rim was machined off, and a solid [partial] rim was fitted to it. Couldn't tell from the videos, camera is bouncing around too much.
Interesting that the neck doesn't have the serial number penciled in at the heel end. My guess is that the neck is original to the 1926 banjo, but some fitting was done to "get it right" on the new rim, and that may have involved some sanding which erased the original penciled-in serial number.
A 1928 "factory upgrade" might also explain why it has the old-style resonator attachment thumbscrews -- they're from the original instrument.
quote:
Originally posted by O.D.I think a lot of uncertainty with these banjos would be eliminated if they marked all of them like 1927 rim and ring
Upon closer inspection today, I find 8278-8 stamped above the lower hole where the neck joins the pot. So 8278-8 appears
In the reso -big chalk
in the reso - little chalk readable thru the flange
Under the neck joint -stamped
In the rim beside "Pat Appld For"
Thank you to everyone who has shared their knowledge. I really appreciate it.
I have examined the rim for the possibility that the rim had the BBTR section cut off and new wood added. I don't see a clear joint line.
On one side, I thought I could see a joint line, but I decided the grain is straight on that side. On the opposite side, the grain wavers up and down in that area (no joint line). If there was a joint line where I was looking, it would pass right through the FON without hurting it and also the decal. Also, you know how they put the tapered end of the inner ply at the coordinator rod holes, well there's a small crack in the very tip of that taper and that crack seems consistent from top to bottom (never cut).
I looked at the FON lists at banjophile.com. In that list for 1926, there are 11 archtops listed (despite the conventional wisdom that the archtop came out in 1927). It is interesting to me that there are 11 archtops in the 82xx timeframe and FOUR of them are listed as 40-hole. Four are listed as No Hole. The other three don't say anything about holes. Interestingly the 3 lowest FON numbers with archtop are 40-hole.
Currently 8357-7 is the lowest archtop on that list (a 40 hole). This TB-3 is 8278-8.
The Gibson shop made multiple types of hoops and tone rings in the same shop. Maybe, rims were only partially, then stored, then used with a final fitting to a particular kind of tone ring (or hoop) based on demand (customer orders).
I've read that parts would sit on the shelf for months or even years before getting used. In the 1920's, they were not doing "just in time" manufacturing. Carrying inventory used to be considered a good thing.
On the topic of the tension hoop, today I noticed E2 stamped on the inside of that hoop.
On the topic of stain on the top, one BHO member TR Dockery said he had seen stain on the top of the rim for original archtops, but not for retrofitted banjos. He even gives a picture showing the stain on an original 1932. Apparently the guy didn't get any neater in 3 years on the job (joke).
banjohangout.org/archive/180204
Next, today I learned how to use the macro feature of my camera and took some clear closeups. At this point, I have ~125 photos. The 5-at-a-time feature of this website discourages me from posting them. Also, the image quality seems to go down.
I think I will make a video of those photos and putting it on youtube with an index to the different parts of the instrument. It might take a few days.
Again, I appreciate everyone's thoughts.
I agree with the inconsistent numbers
On the Rim I posted, the FON next to Pat Applied For is different than the ring and neck joint number.Also a ink stamped number on top of rim ,same as Pat Applied number.
Good luck
Ev
quote:
Originally posted by O.D.I agree with the inconsistent numbers
On the Rim I posted, the FON next to Pat Applied For is different than the ring and neck joint number.Also a ink stamped number on top of rim ,same as Pat Applied number.
Good luck
Ev
Are you saying that in your 1927 example with a number on top of the rim, the FON inside the rim is different from the number we see on the top of the rim and under the neck contact point?
I misspoke in the video and said that some numbers were inconsistent on 8278-8. I have triple checked that they are all the same 8278-8. I likely confused people with that.
On the topic of pencil marks on the end of the neck, I find none and the wood is not particularly smooth. It doesn't look sanded to me. There's either stain wrapping around to the bare wood or some smoke or moisture darkened it. If it was original stain, it seems like any sanding would have removed that.
More later...
* * * * * * * * * * SECOND VIDEO ADDED - MARCH 27th * * * * * * * * * * *
It has a table of content in the description so you can jump around to the parts that are interesting. I used the MACRO feature of my camera and got some better pictures.
Also, took measurements of the tone ring dimensions (and made a cross section drawing).
quote:
Originally posted by randybartlettquote:
Originally posted by O.D.I agree with the inconsistent numbers
On the Rim I posted, the FON next to Pat Applied For is different than the ring and neck joint number.Also a ink stamped number on top of rim ,same as Pat Applied number.
Good luck
EvAre you saying that in your 1927 example with a number on top of the rim, the FON inside the rim is different from the number we see on the top of the rim and under the neck contact point?
I misspoke in the video and said that some numbers were inconsistent on 8278-8. I have triple checked that they are all the same 8278-8. I likely confused people with that.
On the topic of pencil marks on the end of the neck, I find none and the wood is not particularly smooth. It doesn't look sanded to me. There's either stain wrapping around to the bare wood or some smoke or moisture darkened it. If it was original stain, it seems like any sanding would have removed that.
More later...
Hey Randy
That is correct,the stamped ring and neck joint numbers are different than the Indside rim and ink stamp on top of rim .But obviously they belonged together.
1927 seems to have been a unique year for Gibson. Changing the number sequence with the FONs starting with 0
Good luck with your banjo.
Everett
BIG NEWS - I found the splice.
I looked again at the place where I thought I saw a splice, this time using reflected light. See the 2nd photo below. Although it is impossible to see with strong light on it, reflecting light across the surface shows a small variation in the wood / finish exactly 11/16" wide.
Based on other statements I was looking for 1/4" or 3/8" of wood added. I believe they turned down the 8278-8 ball bearing rim sufficient to remove the 8278-8 stamp, but just shy of touching the PAT.Appld.For stamp.
Since this splice line runs right through the FON, I also believe that they re-stamped the FON onto the rim (matching the resonator number and the number on the rim under the neck joint.
In the other photo, I measure that the small ledge of wood seen just below the upper hole at the neck joint is, in fact, the splice. It is also a perfect 11/16". I strongly suspect that owners of 1926 ball bearing rims would find no such ledge on their banjo rims. If you have some photo of your neck joint area, could you check?
Lastly the splice would have cut the decal. So is it safe to assume that they removed the original decal and applied another one over the splice?
SO....
The new questions are:
Is there any reason to doubt that the Gibson repair shop did this splice and installed the archtop tone ring onto a 1926 banjo that was originally a ball bearing banjo?
Is there a way to know "when"?
As always, thank you for sharing your knowledge with me. In particular, I want to acknowledge O.D. (Everett) who said he could see the joint line in those photos. Also, John Albert for the encouragement to keep looking for it.
