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======================== UPDATE =====================
I got the banjo and I have posted a bunch of pictures. I am putting the link to the whole album here at the top for your convenience!
https://www.banjohangout.org/myhangout/photos.asp?id=5999&albumid=11810
========================= ORIGINAL POST ===============================
I'm going to look at a TB3 and have some doubts. Maybe someone can weigh in on the situation. If I buy the banjo, I'll post full photos with the FON.
Backstory: the guy bought it in college and played in the dixieland band. He graduated in 1928. I think he actively played the banjo during his life and left it his kids. He was a professional and appears to been upstanding. His son is professional, well spoken and seems thoughtful and kind. He admits he's no banjo expert but he did try to learn to play for a while.
My description based on photos
1) Ad lists as '25 TB-3.
2) FON in rim is 827x-x. That dates to 1926. The FON does not appear in the Earnest shipping records that I can see. I assume that all the "missing banjos" on his list are ones that appear in shipping records that he does not have photos of.
3) Reso has binding at corner but not the lip that faces out. No purfling etc. Finish is dark brown
4) Peghead: correct to style 3. Does NOT say Mastertone there (it has the FB block)
5) Neck: same finish, the inlays look like diamonds and square snowflakes to me
5) Two piece flange (tube and plate)
6) Fat rim
7) Intact decal
8) No hangtag. Original case was replaced.
9) Archtop tonering with holes *
10) The tension hoop is NOT the one with the flattish holes and a ridge all the way around. It is the one with a rectangular cross section. *
* These two items are where my doubt creeps in. The archtop with hole (I think) indicates 1927, but the 827x.x FON indicates probably 1926. Also, in 1925/26, the tension hoop ought to have the flattish hooks and the ridged cross section.
Scenario 1:
The guy swapped from a ball bearing tone ring to the archtop with holes + the different tension hoop/hooks to improve his banjo's sound.
Scenario 2:
Gibson may have overproduced the TB-3 wood parts in 1926, had some in storage for a year, and shipped with 1927 metal.
Are there any other scenarios?
If I buy it, I'll take it to one of the established authenticators, but in the meantime, is there a way I could recognize the archtop tone ring's identity? I mean it could be 1927, it could be 1950, it could be Stewmac. Right? How to tell?
Same for the tension hoop and hooks?
Thanks!
RandyB
Edited by - randybartlett on 03/23/2023 19:36:05
2) FON in rim is 827x-x. That dates to 1926. The FON does not appear in the Earnest shipping records that I can see. I assume that all the "missing banjos" on his list are ones that appear in shipping records that he does not have photos of.
No shipping records remain for this era
3) Reso has binding at corner but not the lip that faces out. No purfling etc. Finish is dark brown
Period correct
4) Peghead: correct to style 3. Does NOT say Mastertone there (it has the FB block)
Period correct, probably a '26 ?
5) Neck: same finish, the inlays look like diamonds and square snowflakes to me
Period correct
5) Two piece flange (tube and plate)
Period correct
6) Fat rim
Period correct
9) Archtop tonering with holes *
Should be ball-bearing raised head with springs and washers ("shotgun" holes in the tonering skirt were from the early runs of BB mastertones)
If it's a solid cast raised-head, we would need pictures to make any sort of educated guess
10) The tension hoop is NOT the one with the flattish holes and a ridge all the way around. It is the one with a rectangular cross section.
Period correct should have a ridged tension hoop and should have the flattened 'cobra' style tension hooks
* These two items are where my doubt creeps in. The archtop with hole (I think) indicates 1927, but the 827x.x FON indicates probably 1926. Also, in 1925/26, the tension hoop ought to have the flattish hooks and the ridged cross section.
Scenario 1:
The guy swapped from a ball bearing tone ring to the archtop with holes + the different tension hoop/hooks to improve his banjo's sound.
It would have to be a stewmac ball-bearing to archtop conversion ring, if anything.
The rim would have to have been modified to fit a Gibson 40 hole, no hole or post-war 4 hole archtop ring.
Scenario 2:
Gibson may have overproduced the TB-3 wood parts in 1926, had some in storage for a year, and shipped with 1927 metal.
We really need a picture of the rim/ring from outside and inside the pot
WE NEED PICTURES
Edited by - ChunoTheDog on 03/22/2023 12:17:42
Also some people mistake the the Ball bearing “ring” as a tone ring ? It could very well still be a BB. Good luck you have me interested.
Does it look like this? This is a 1925, but a 26 would look the same.
Edited by - notty pine on 03/22/2023 12:47:00
Posted some pictures as an album.
https://www.banjohangout.org/myhangout/photos.asp?id=5999&albumid=11810
You can see that it doesn't have the BBTR holes like David's picture. The coordinator rods don't have that flat portion either. The decal is different too.
>>>ANTOINE>>The rim would have to have been modified to fit a Gibson 40 hole, no hole or post-war 4 hole archtop ring.
If the rim is original BBTR, then it would have a bunch of holes in the top side. I won't be able to disassemble it pre-sale. So, I interpret ANTOINE's comment to mean that since the decal is uncut, either it is a conversion BB2AT ring or the factory put their archtop. What would the dimension from the bottom edge of the rim to an archtop ring be? Is that a possible way to get closer to knowing something?
After seeing pictures, what do you think of my original scenarios?
Thank for the pictures!
To me (I'm not George Gruhn by any means, by the way) that looks like an all original, 40 hole raised head TB3 from the post-BB period, with the correct notched tension hoop and everything. The rim, from the pictures looks intact, too.
BUT as you posted in your initial post...the resonator having no outside binding and the 827-8 FON are super unusual.
If only these banjos could talk... Maybe it was sent back to Gibson in the late 20s for a new rim/ring etc and they kept the same resonator with the old BB FON?
The thumbscrews, from the pictures, appear to be from the BB period too if theyre hex shaped and not round with knurling.
Edited by - ChunoTheDog on 03/22/2023 13:53:47
The resonator being the only questionable part, it seems like the real deal. I don’t think there’s much incentive for anyone to make a copy tenor neck to attach to a copy arch top pot.
The photo looks like a bb to me, just like mine. Not an archtop. In my opinion, this model bb is excellent if set up right.
My thought would be, if it's a reasonable price, I'd buy it
If you look closely, the two "rings" are different. There are more and different sized holes in the bb.
quote:
Originally posted by FooteThe photo looks like a bb to me, just like mine. Not an archtop. In my opinion, this model bb is excellent if set up right.
The first photo posted in this thread is a ball bearing, but that photo is not the banjo being asked about. That photo was posted as an example of a ball bearing.
Photos of the banjo being discussed are in the post immediately following that bb photo. You have to click on the link to see photos of the banjo in question.
quote:
Originally posted by ChunoTheDogquote:
Originally posted by FooteThe photo looks like a bb to me, just like mine. Not an archtop. In my opinion, this model bb is excellent if set up right.
my 1928 no hole archtop TB3 vs the OPs picture
Looks like a 40 hole solid archtop TB3
A lot of 27's had solid arch top rings. I did not see the FON stamped in the rim, but assume it is the same as the resonator. I would think that it could possibly be an early '27 in spite of the FON, but there were some archtops late in '26 but yours seems in the middle or early '26. You just never know with Gibson.
Edited by - BanjoLink on 03/22/2023 15:34:16
OP's TB3 is FON 8279-2 on the right
For comparion here is TB3 FON 8279-49 curtesy of Greg Earnest Banjo.com on the left
Edited by - ChunoTheDog on 03/22/2023 15:40:07
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoLinkquote:
Originally posted by ChunoTheDogquote:
Originally posted by FooteThe photo looks like a bb to me, just like mine. Not an archtop. In my opinion, this model bb is excellent if set up right.
my 1928 no hole archtop TB3 vs the OPs picture
Looks like a 40 hole solid archtop TB3
A lot of 27's had solid arch top rings. I did not see the FON stamped in the rim, but assume it is the same as the resonator. I would think that it could possibly be an early '27 in spite of the FON, but there were some archtops late in '26 but yours seems in the middle or early '26. You just never know with Gibson.
Right, my understanding is that the more popular 40 hole cast raised head came after a smaller initial run of no holes once they phased out the bb
I count 40 holes on 8279-2 and it even has what looks to be a post 1926 style of Mastertone decal, but the rim looks to be stamped 8279-2 like its resonator? If the tenor neck has the number 2 stamped at the heel joint I'd be willing to bet its all original (?)
We discussed a while back that there were some late '26 models with round hooks and notched hoops. I owned a '26 with this same decal. My opinion is that this is the real deal and would be interested at the right price if OP declines.
Gibson took a number of "leftover" BB rims and ADDED WOOD to the top of them to make them the correct height to put on a cast arch top tone ring (whether solid ring of 40 hole, they are dimensionally the same and require a taller rim than a BB tone ring. If you look through all the Greg Earnest photos you can see several examples of old BB rings with a wood cap maybe 1/4" or 3/8" or so tall, added on top. The seam is expertly made but visible. I believe the entire rim got a refinish job on top of that, but the old original BB FON still showed clearly.
BBs also had smaller diameter coord. rods and neck lag bolts than the later cast arch top banjos. The ones in the banjo in question look like the later, larger hardware.
I don't see any photos to show the "rectangular" cross section tension hoop. I still don't understand which type the Original Poster believes he has. BBs generally had what's known as "grooved" tension hoopp with flat headed hooks (sort of cobra style). Later cast arch top banjos had "notched" tension hoops with round hooks.
Until I see otherwise, I believe the banjo in question is an old BB rim and resonator that was "converted" by Gibson to accept a cast arch top ring, using the "later" coord. rods and neck lag bolts. You can find more of them on Earnest's website but you have to hunt.
Edited by - The Old Timer on 03/22/2023 18:47:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Old TimerGibson took a number of "leftover" BB rims and ADDED WOOD to the top of them to make them the correct height to put on a cast arch top tone ring (whether solid ring of 40 hole, they are dimensionally the same and require a taller rim than a BB tone ring. If you look through all the Greg Earnest photos you can see several examples of old BB rings with a wood cap maybe 1/4" or 3/8" or so tall, added on top. The seam is expertly made but visible. I believe the entire rim got a refinish job on top of that, but the old original BB FON still showed clearly.
BBs also had smaller diameter coord. rods and neck lag bolts than the later cast arch top banjos. The ones in the banjo in question look like the later, larger hardware.I don't see any photos to show the "rectangular" cross section tension hoop. I still don't understand which type the Original Poster believes he has. BBs generally had what's known as "grooved" tension hoopp with flat headed hooks (sort of cobra style). Later cast arch top banjos had "notched" tension hoops with round hooks.
Until I see otherwise, I believe the banjo in question is an old BB rim and resonator that was "converted" by Gibson to accept a cast arch top ring, using the "later" coord. rods and neck lag bolts. You can find more of them on Earnest's website but you have to hunt.
I've seen some of those rims, but I always assumed that they were for flathead rings and the piece was added to be able to accomodate an archtop ring.
I’m near positive the Old Timer, Dick Bowden nailed it.
BB RIm that was modified by Gibson in the factory to accept the new tone ring they introduced. I had a early ‘27 no hole arch top TB-3. Very similar in many ways to the OP’s banjo except he has the later 40 hole ring.
If that tenor is a decent price, don’t hesitate to grab it. If you are looking to convert it to a five string, don’t bother putting a conversion ring in it. Those original Gibson arch top rings have a ton of power in them, and with all the conversions that have been done, they are getting pretty rare themselves.
I agree with Old Timer as well, here is a photo of one that i had you can see the cut inside the rim. It also had a FON from 1926. I dont know how to upload the photo but it is on my page. Pic on the Mastertone lable
"If I buy it, I'll take it to one of the established authenticators, but in the meantime, is there a way I could recognize the archtop tone ring's identity? I mean it could be 1927, it could be 1950, it could be Stewmac. Right? How to tell?"
If you haxe any doubts or questions, it seems safer to me to take it, or at least many, mano, photos to an expert BEFORE buying it.
>>>>>If you haxe any doubts or questions, it seems safer to me to take it,
>>>>> or at least many, mano, photos to an expert BEFORE buying it.
I got advice from a well-known luthier to add the following clause to my bill of sale. I did. We both signed. I have the banjo now. I will post more tomorrow. It is still mysterious (btw, I don't see any added wood yet).
• The Seller affirms that the above information about the Banjo is accurate to the best of their knowledge.
• The buyer has three months to have a professional inspection and appraisal by a commercially recognized expert of Gibson banjos (at the buyer's expense). If the banjo was not manufactured by Gibson in the 1920s or any major part is not original to the banjo, the buyer may (at his discretion) return the banjo to the seller (in Traverse City, Michigan) and the seller will return the buyer's money. Major parts are pot hardware (tone ring, flange, coordinator rods, tailpiece, tension hoop), rim, neck, tuners, and resonator.
• If the banjo is returned, it is understood that there are no new alterations or damages to the instrument.
Nobody is faking raised head tenor 3s especially to this level of elaboration.
Send better and more pictures to someone like Richie Dotson or someone like that
https://www.banjohangout.org/myhangout/photos.asp?id=5999&albumid=11810
I posted a lot of photos in the same ALBUM (and put a link in the original post too).
So, here's what I see after some disassembly
* Top of the rim is flat. There are no holes where a Ball Bearing Tone Ring was removed. So, I think if the rim is real, then it shipped from Gibson as a 40 hole archtop.
* Tone ring is 2 pounds, 8 1/8 oz. I took several photos of it
* Tone ring skirt is 0.657" long (measured from the face that rests the rim to the skirt edge)
* Tone ring skirt is 1.031" tall (measured on the outside)
* The calf skin head has the date 12-20-33 marked on it (this was partially under the tone ring)
Comments on any photo are welcomed. If a photo is bad (or missing), I can take some more per your helpful requests.
Don't try to remove the lower lag bolt. It appears to be the L shaped one under a heel cap. I had a plectrum neck from a no hole archtop in my hands this week with a twisted off lower lag. I did not disassemble the pot, but everything I see on yours looks identical.
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