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In music theory there are ften different kind of minor scales: natural minor scale (what we usually associate with minor), harmonic minor scale and melodic minor scale. The melodic minor scale seems to be used in classical music and some modern music and includes different notes/tones in ascending and descending. The natural minor scale (the same as Aeolian mode) seems to be common in Bluegrass and Old-Time music and in other traditional music. The harmonic minor scale seems to be more uncommon and contains three steps between the 6th and 7th.
So my question is: Are there any well known banjo tunes in the melodic minor scale?
I don't think of natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor as three distinct scales that get exclusively used in single songs. I prefer to think of them as fluid variations that interact with each other as they are useful. If you think of the natural minor scale as your fundamental minor scale, you can see the harmonic minor in action any time you find a major or dominant 7 chord as the V preceeding the root minor chord (for example E or E7 preceeding a song that resolves to Am) - the purpose of the harmonic minor is to restore the leading tone (a major 7th) that allows that cadence (primarily in the harmony, though it works melodically too). So, I only think of the harmonic minor scale being used for that particular function, and it's invoked within a song only as long as it's needed. Same with the melodic minor. Think of a melodic minor as a major scale with a flat 3rd - thus it has a minor sound. Or think of it as a natural minor scale that raises the 6th and 7th degree to make the melodic movement flow better when ascending. It reverts to the natural minor when descending for the same reason - the melodic movement flows better.
The upshot is, I think of the natural minor scale as the base scale with harmonic and melodic being invoked as inflections in the natural minor as they are convenient within a piece.
Any bluegrass song in a major scale that uses a major bVII chord is borrowing that chord from the parallel minor scale (think of the F major chord in the key of G that is often used - Old Joe Clark for example, there are many - it's a G major scale that temporarily turns into a Gm scale). That kind of exchange is common.
There are 12 notes and anytime you add something that isn't one of the 7 notes of the diatonic scale (remember that a relative minor is just a major scale that starts and ends on the 6th degree) there may be multiple theoretical theories for what scale variant or variances are being used in that instance.
I rarely think of a song being in "natural minor" or in "harmonic minor" or in "melodic minor" - I think of it being a minor scale that may use "harmonic" or "melodic" in a particular passage for a particular purpose.
Thereis a basic difference betwwen the flat seventh of "Old Joe Clark," and a conventional minor cale, because in "lark" the seventh is the only flaated scale degree, and minor scales, whether natural, harmonic, or melodic all have other minor scale notes, most notably the third.
"Old Joe Clark' is actually in the mixolydian mode, a scale pattern that is all "white keys" (the naturals) beginning on the "G' note.
The idea of thinking in terms of one minor I agree with. Just leave out modes. They are not minor, although some, like Dorian mode sound like minor in many cases.
quote:
Originally posted by Greg DentonI don't think of natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor as three distinct scales that get exclusively used in single songs. I prefer to think of them as fluid variations that interact with each other as they are useful. If you think of the natural minor scale as your fundamental minor scale, you can see the harmonic minor in action any time you find a major or dominant 7 chord as the V preceeding the root minor chord (for example E or E7 preceeding a song that resolves to Am) - the purpose of the harmonic minor is to restore the leading tone (a major 7th) that allows that cadence (primarily in the harmony, though it works melodically too). So, I only think of the harmonic minor scale being used for that particular function, and it's invoked within a song only as long as it's needed. Same with the melodic minor. Think of a melodic minor as a major scale with a flat 3rd - thus it has a minor sound. Or think of it as a natural minor scale that raises the 6th and 7th degree to make the melodic movement flow better when ascending. It reverts to the natural minor when descending for the same reason - the melodic movement flows better.
Nicely put!
quote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie
"Old Joe Clark' is actually in the mixolydian mode, a scale pattern that is all "white keys" (the naturals) beginning on the "G' note.
As I pointed out in my posting, there may be multiple theoretical explanations for the F chord in "Old Joe Clark". The F chord could also be borrowed from G mixolydian as plausibly as my suggestion that it is borrowed from the G minor scale (G aeolian). But it would be wrong to say the song is "in the mixolydian mode" because the song also contains a D major or D7 chord as a dominant. If it were in G mixolydian the D chord would necessarily be a Dm chord (and would fail to provide the dominant function that it does in the song). I prefer to think of "Old Joe Clark" being in G major with the F chord borrowed from the parallel minor key of Gm.
Whenever chords that are "out of key" are encountered, the most common theoretical explanations are found by looking to "secondary dominants" or "chords borrowed from a parallel minor" (or sometimes another parallel key) - G mixolydian is plausible as an explanation, but I think G aeolian would be a more prevalent explanation in common theoretical analysis.
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Dentonquote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie
"Old Joe Clark' is actually in the mixolydian mode, a scale pattern that is all "white keys" (the naturals) beginning on the "G' note.As I pointed out in my posting, there may be multiple theoretical explanations for the F chord in "Old Joe Clark". The F chord could also be borrowed from G mixolydian as plausibly as my suggestion that it is borrowed from the G minor scale (G aeolian). But it would be wrong to say the song is "in the mixolydian mode" because the song also contains a D major or D7 chord as a dominant. If it were in G mixolydian the D chord would necessarily be a Dm chord (and would fail to provide the dominant function that it does in the song). I prefer to think of "Old Joe Clark" being in G major with the F chord borrowed from the parallel minor key of Gm.
Whenever chords that are "out of key" are encountered, the most common theoretical explanations are found by looking to "secondary dominants" or "chords borrowed from a parallel minor" (or sometimes another parallel key) - G mixolydian is plausible as an explanation, but I think G aeolian would be a more prevalent explanation in common theoretical analysis.
Accompanying chords are NOT an essential feature of truly old-time fiddle tunes. Those of us who think in chordal terms (that's most or perhaps ALL of us here on BHO) impose chords on those old tunes in a way that would have been alien to their original players. In some cases the chordal implications seem overwhelmingly strong--for example, "Soldier's Joy"--but I strongly suspect that the earliest players of these tunes conceived of them purely as melodies, without the harmonies we imagine we hear in them.
When we say that "OJC" is mixolydian, we're simply describing the melody, which in and of itself does not imply, contain, or compel any given set of chords. Certainly the F chord in "OJC is a relatively recent thing; the earliest instance of it I've ever heard is from 1965, and it didn't become common (in the bluegrass world; the old-time players I know anathematize it!) until decades later.
Sorry, but without a minor 3rd scale degree, "Clark" cannot be truly described as minor.
Although some examples of the tune do use both the F and F#, others don't. besides, having an F# still doesn't put it in minor.
It is an assumption that players years ago conceived of these tunes purely as melodies. I would extrapolate by this assumption, that musicians worked only with melodies (although perhaps some amateurs did) even though harmony and chords predate lutenists, harpsichords, basso continuos , and other musical devices that go back centuries.
Although it may be true that "OJC" became "modal" rather late. the F# still doesn't place it in a minor key. The fact that it ends, and always has, cadenced on the major "tonic" chord should tell a person that. music can be difficult enough without calling a predominantly major tune "minor." Maybe OJC could be called "G major" (the version with the F#) or Mixolydian (as played by many using the F natural) but it is anything but minor.
quote:
Originally posted by G Edward PorgieSorry, but without a minor 3rd scale degree, "Clark" cannot be truly described as minor.
Although some examples of the tune do use both the F and F#, others don't. besides, having an F# still doesn't put it in minor.
It is an assumption that players years ago conceived of these tunes purely as melodies. I would extrapolate by this assumption, that musicians worked only with melodies (although perhaps some amateurs did) even though harmony and chords predate lutenists, harpsichords, basso continuos , and other musical devices that go back centuries.
Although it may be true that "OJC" became "modal" rather late. the F# still doesn't place it in a minor key. The fact that it ends, and always has, cadenced on the major "tonic" chord should tell a person that. music can be difficult enough without calling a predominantly major tune "minor." Maybe OJC could be called "G major" (the version with the F#) or Mixolydian (as played by many using the F natural) but it is anything but minor.
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone here claimed "OJC" was in a minor key. What I proposed was that it's in G major and borrows the F chord from Gm. I brought up "OJC" as an illustration of a scale temporarily modulating and then returning to the original scale. It's an imperfect example, perhaps, because it focuses on the harmony rather than the melody (as pointed out by Ira Gitlan above).
Interesting as this discussion is, I'm worried that debating what key "Old Joe Clark" is or isn't in distracts from the original post asking for tunes that exclusively use the melodic minor scale. I'd be interested seeing some other responses to that question.
When I started this discussion I had no idea that there would be a discussion about Old Joe Clark. And I am surprised to see how many incorrect statements that has been presented above. To skip the discussion about melodic minor scale and focus on the key/mode of Old Joe Clark, I would suggest the following:
Now, shall we continue with the melodic minor scale?
Now we are splitting hairs, and although OJC may not have been declared as minor, "borrowing" from G minor certainly hints that it is in Gminor, or at the very least, passes through Gminor. I may have misinterpreted your initial statement, but there is still no way the tune, with its mix of F# (idicative of G major, and F natural, indicative of G natural minor) is truly
either and should be considered modal. If you think of it as a "borrowing," and that works for you, fine. It wouldn't work for many others, though, especially music theorists.
Perhaps a better example could have been cited.
Getting back to tunes solely in melodic minor, I doubt there are many, if any. Minor keys and scales tend to be odd and often accidentals need to be introduced in order to allow a strong cadence.
I way I see it is when musicians and composers started to implement more harmonic elements into their music, the natural minor scale/aeolian mode, caused some harmonic problems with resolving in a pleasant sounding way. Composers started raising the subtonic a half step in order to create a leading tone not present initially. This gave the 5th chord a dominant function and created the pleasant sounding harmonic resolution that a v-i doesn’t have. The resultant scale became known as the harmonic minor scale. However this harmonic minor scale caused another problem between the 6th and 7th degrees. In the resultant harmonic minor, the 6th and 7th degrees were now an extra half step apart, which complicated melodies. Therefore the 6th degree was commonly raised a step to alleviate this. Resultant scale created here is the melodic minor.
If you are talking strictly banjo tunes, there aren’t a lot of them written in minor keys. The common banjo tunes that were adopted from fiddle tunes generally if minor, were not usually exclusively written with harmony in mind, they were either Aeolian or Dorian and in the case of the former didn’t have any need for the variants born out of the problems associated with harmony outlined earlier. In modern adaptations where there is harmonic accompaniment, there tends to be work around sometimes to make the harmony function as intended, however I don’t see this as being exclusively in either harmonic or melodic minor scales for the whole duration.
Edited by - 250gibson on 03/22/2023 12:03:19
quote:
Originally posted by G Edward PorgieIf you think of it as a "borrowing," and that works for you, fine. It wouldn't work for many others, though, especially music theorists.
Pretty classic music theory actually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borrowed_chord
Take a look at https://folkrnn.org/
It has an AI that has absorbed all the tunes on https://thesession.org. It can write fiddle tunes for you.
Select "Key of Cm" and enter the melodic minor scale in the box "Initial ABC"
Cut and paste this:
CD_EF G=A=Bc|BAGF _EDC2
I just wrote a whole bunch of tunes (sort of melodic minor) that were not too bad (in about a minute).
Interesting different interpretation of what Music theory is.
One is about doing the math so to have to fit nice and neatly in a box label with strict rules; (so to get single "right" answer?). Then some other box/rules to explain when it doesn't.
Often, as "hey, it's written in a book" based only on scale based, and/or major/minor functional harmony of Western European Art music rules of 18th-19th century; as if the only musical ideas that exist.
Another is how folks would describe what's happening in a tune. However a lot of that involves individual perception... and that often there is more than one way to perceive and process. There might be general common descriptions, but not necessarily strict rules or boxes. Nor a single "right" way. Esp. when dealing with other music that existed and exists... that it's not based on 18th C functional harmony; so maybe not necessarily the best way to describe.
To answer OP; melodic minor might be one way to describe, but very few compositions are strictly that; as scale based comp, it's limited, difficult to compose with, (without soundling like other tunes that use that). While tunes composition might seem to include it, perhaps it's just a chromatic alteration, for chord harmony, or as leading tone; not really the core, meat/potatoes.
There is a minor key chord progression(s), "You're No Good" is example; that will create a bit of the math of the notes, going from i(7) and progressing using IV7 and V7. The chords gives all the melodic minor notes, but doesn't necessarily mean it's about ascending/descending scales, rather what fits the chord; on i chord would use natural m6 and m7; IV7 changes to M6; V7 changes to M7.
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As far as OJC (or any mixolydian tune), not sure many would describe the thinking as modulating to parallel minor (Gm); nor playing a VII as borrowing a chord from some other key.
As mentioned, many folks think of these tunes in more modal ideas. Not so much about major/minor, scales nor chords based. For example, how the melody fits over a single drone (usually tonic); all notes relate more direct to tonic (or fifth). Allows for non-12TET nores, inc neutral thirds and sevenths for example. Others apply some aspect of more 12TET, chords that could be used to harmonize; with that Mixolydian contains the VII, to some default what Mixolydian has. As well the V7 is considered natural part, for standard reason of being a dominant.
The latter confuses some doing strict math, scales, major/minor functional harmony "rules"... "If it were in mixolydian the V chord would necessarily be a minor chord" type of thing? FWIW, often the dominant used in these is more just dyad (root/fifth) focued, or dyad with m7; keeping idea of being less about major/minor aspects.
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Interesting extra note about versions of mixolydian tunes find in some fiddlers, OJC is example (esp with V)... it uses m7 in higher position, as main melodic note, but when drops down in last phrase, uses the more M7 in the turn. That said, I don't think of it as different scales/key, nor mode not mixolydian.
quote:
Originally posted by latureTake a look at https://folkrnn.org/
It has an AI that has absorbed all the tunes on https://thesession.org. It can write fiddle tunes for you.
Select "Key of Cm" and enter the melodic minor scale in the box "Initial ABC"
Cut and paste this:
CD_EF G=A=Bc|BAGF _EDC2
I just wrote a whole bunch of tunes (sort of melodic minor) that were not too bad (in about a minute).
"you" wrote those?
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Dentonquote:
Originally posted by G Edward PorgieIf you think of it as a "borrowing," and that works for you, fine. It wouldn't work for many others, though, especially music theorists.
Pretty classic music theory actually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borrowed_chord
We were talking here about a borrowed note. Chord substitution is a little different than note substitutiom.
This might be a reasonable debate point if it weren't for the fact that there is a mode( Mixolydian) which already encompasses a flatted seventh. It could actually be that OJC is Mixolydian, and that the F# is the substituted note, if one wishes to speak of NOTE substitution.
I don't think a theorist would claim "note substitution" when there is already a term for the modal scale used in OJC. I know that I would call that flatted seventh Modal, rather than Substitution, and the F#, to me, would be put in to strengthen what might otherwise seem to be a weak cadence; an F chord to a G tonic.
I am through debating this point. It is distracting from the original question asked.
Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 03/23/2023 18:39:09
An article by Janet Davis on melodic minor from the April 2009 banjo newsletter
banjonews.com/2009-04/melodic_...eves.html
I'm sorry, but I fail to see what is going on in this discussion.
Are there concepts being taken for granted that I have missed?
Please help me!
Doesn't the C Harmonic Scale represent the actual KEY of C Minor? (classical and jazz contexts?)
On sheet music, I see the key signature for songs written in the KEY of C Minor as Eb (three flats).
The Diatonic Chords of the Key of C Minor are:
Cm#7 = C - Eb - G - B
Dm7b5 = D -F - A - C
Ebmaj7#5 = Eb - G - B - D
Fm7 = F - Ab - C - Eb
G7 = G - B - D - F
Abmaj7 = Ab - C - Eb - G
Bdim7 = B - D - F - Ab
Cm#7 = C - Eb - G - B
The altered G7 Chord Scale of C Harmonic Minor is G7+5b9 or Db9 and it sounds more "minor sounding" than an unaltered straight G7 resolve to C Minor. But it still works fine. The 7th degree of C Harmonic Minor scale is a Bdim7 chord which functions as a dominant substitute and it sounds like a G7b9 chord although an unaltered G7 still works fine there also.
The Natural Minor Scales generated by three major scales are:
C minor(7) or Second Degree of Bb Major functioning as a sub-dominant
C minor(7) or Third Degree of Ab Major which functions as an extended (9th) Tonic
C minor(7) or Sixth Degree Relative Minor of Eb Major functioning as a Tonic added major 6 chord.
segue
I simply consider OJC in the key of G.
When I get to the F chord change, I apply an F major scale without the Bb:
F - G - A - C - D- -E- F
This keeps the chord change sounding more like straight F as the Bb note kills the F major sound for Bluegrass.
I'll sometimes substitute a G Blues Scale for the F change because I can.
As for the the C Melodic Minor - It just sounds a lot like an F Dominant 9th chord or Cm6 and I'll use it as such in jazz melodic lines.
What am I missing?
Music Theory is like a suntan. On the beach you don't care exactly how the sun shines. It just works.
Edited by - banjola1 on 04/02/2023 19:30:53
OK - I get it now. Sorry I'm so dense.
The answer is no. There are generally two different kinds of keys, Major and Minor, and a C melodic minor scale is not based in either a Major or Minor key. Unless want to stretch OJC and modulate it to a minor key, the Melodic Minor Scale is simple a decoration as a resolving device in melodic Classical composition. You could maybe try force injecting a Whole Tone Scale into OJC or make it an atonal romp so you can then clog dance on Arnold Schoenberg's grave. But be careful - you could loose your mind and run to AI for help.
Just remember - "He blew his nose in the old corn bread and called it Pumpkin Pie."
And that says it all.
Check please!
patcloud.com
Edited by - banjola1 on 04/02/2023 20:38:03
quote:
Originally posted by banjola1OK - I get it now. Sorry I'm so dense.
The answer is no. There are generally two different kinds of keys, Major and Minor, and a C melodic minor scale is not based in either a Major or Minor key. Unless want to stretch OJC and modulate it to a minor key, the Melodic Minor Scale is a resolving device in melodic Classical composition. You could maybe try force injecting a Whole Tone Scale into OJC or make it an atonal romp and then you can clog dance on Arnold Schoenberg's grave. But be careful - you could loose your mind and run to AI for help.Just remember - "He blew his nose in the old corn bread and called it Pumpkin Pie."
And that says it all.
Check please!
patcloud.com
I think I found a "well known" banjo tune that's "in" melodic minor.
By "in" I mean:
1. It uses a melodic minor scale (up and down) (Bm)
2. It is in a minor key, with both the 4 and 5 chords being major (Key of Bm, 4=E, 5=F#)
Bela Fleck's "Eager and Anxious"
The song starts in Bm and walks down B - A - F# - E ...
Later it walks back up (to start over) and hits the A# instead of the A
It also uses E and F# major chords all over the place (in the key of Bm.)
quote:
Originally posted by latureI think I found a "well known" banjo tune that's "in" melodic minor.
By "in" I mean:
1. It uses a melodic minor scale (up and down) (Bm)
2. It is in a minor key, with both the 4 and 5 chords being major (Key of Bm, 4=E, 5=F#)
Bela Fleck's "Eager and Anxious"
The song starts in Bm and walks down B - A - F# - E ...
Later it walks back up (to start over) and hits the A# instead of the A
It also uses E and F# major chords all over the place (in the key of Bm.)
B Dorian Mode (b c# d e f# g# a) with a Major b6 G chord hence the g natural which falls to a Major V chord F#, hence the a#
quote:
Originally posted by latureI think I found a "well known" banjo tune that's "in" melodic minor.
By "in" I mean:
1. It uses a melodic minor scale (up and down) (Bm)
2. It is in a minor key, with both the 4 and 5 chords being major (Key of Bm, 4=E, 5=F#)
Bela Fleck's "Eager and Anxious"
The song starts in Bm and walks down B - A - F# - E ...
Later it walks back up (to start over) and hits the A# instead of the A
It also uses E and F# major chords all over the place (in the key of Bm.)
I've personally never heard the song. But what I haven't heard fills libraries. There's some music I've heard that I wish I hadn't. What is or is not "well known" is a matter of opinion. Still to me, a melodic minor scale in a song is probably more of a scale choice and not necessarily a key. We can have honest disagreements. Actually, if you really think about it, a key can "theoretically" encompass any scale choice, mode, modulation or a invention you would like to make up. We could argue endlessly. But there are really are well-known standard approaches to theoretical music concepts that have been followed for centuries.
I have my way of tonal organization and you have yours. And yours may be better than mine, who knows? We could also argue and debate about how the sun shines and over time keep changing or rearranging our own theoretical beliefs. It's the basis for the Scientific Method. But music is not science. It's human creativity. Theory is the scaffolding - not the building. You can take and choose whatever musical theory "plans" you like to build your own building to create your own style of music and that's really the whole point.
One of my favorite departures from standard theoretical jazz theory is George Russel's "Lydian Chromatic Concept." His concept of a major scale is the Lydian mode in which he integrates the chromatic scale in increments in order to analyze jazz music.
I believe the "well-known" fiddle tune, Bill Monroe's "Jerusalem Ridge" is built around the relative A minor in the key of C and that is a common theoretical way of thinking about a key in folk music.
But by all means, filter and nurture and go your own way. I absolutely encourage it.
My apologies to the forum for my previous sarcasm. I'll definitely choose my banjo threads more carefully from now on.
I'll move on now.
Good bye.
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallB Dorian Mode (b c# d e f# g# a) with a Major b6 G chord hence the g natural which falls to a Major V chord F#, hence the a#
With B Dorian, the F# chord would be F#m, and it's definitely not that. Also, the G chord is a natural chord of the melodic minor descending scale.
Not sure I understood your response????
I'm pretty sure the person way back that came up with the tune for Old Joe Clark had no knowledge of music theory. So trying to explain his use of chords through music theory seems kind of fruitless. Most people that played in the 1800s and early 1900s played by ear and their music was based on melodies, not chord progressions. It was only when professional musician took an interest in Old Time music that people began trying to understand it based on music theory. That's why in the really old tunes you find so many peculiar tunings and sometimes bizarre mix of time signatures (crooked beyond imagination).
I thought this thread was about finding "well known banjo tunes in the melodic minor scale."
Why is everyone talking about everything but this? And why Old Joe Clark? It's not even in a minor key?
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