As long as it’s a pro quality job I doubt it would devalue it all that much. These aren’t super rare $90k prewar Gibsons. The only thing to remember is the original finish isn't laquer so not sure what you'd use for a finish. It should be disclosed though at time of sale.

Without having much -- if any -- historical market information, one can only theorize.  Of course, that's never hindered the BHO from providing plenty of responses. 

A more useful way might be to pose a realistic question, and tally the responses.  Such as:

   "You want to buy a Stelling banjo.  You have two choices:  (1)  a 1990 Bellflower in excellent original condition showing slight wear for $4,000, and (2) a 1990 Bellflower that has been refinished, and shows slight wear.  How much would you pay for the refinished banjo?"

Eliminates the "it ought to" and "judging by the Gibson discounts" and "I'd estimate" and "refinished Martin guitars are discounted by . . . "

So let's hear some answers.  Me, I'd go 50% --  $2,000 or less.  Stelling banjos are not rare.  I'd want an original in good condition, not worn out or damaged wood that had to be refinished and the metal parts replated.

I don't know that Stellings have "vintage" value. I believe most of their value comes from their known or expected quality of construction, design, playability, and sound. Scarcity now contributes to their value. All the Stellings there will ever be are the ones that exist today.

On top of all this, Stellings were known and respected for the quality of their finishes. To my mind, the issue in refinishing a Stelling is not whether an original finish in any condition has vintage value and should be left alone, it's whether the refinisher can do as good a job as the original.

I think a well-refinished Stelling should be worth as much as a same age same model with an original finish.

That's only one opinion and I could be wrong.

If I understand the Stelling history there were quite a number of mid to late 70’s Stellings that had serious finish problems due to an ingredient that was missing in the finish. I suppose many of those had to be stripped and refinished anyway. Don Reno’s first Golden Cross was one of them. I don’t believe that would devalue those banjos at all.

 "You want to buy a Stelling banjo.  You have two choices:  (1)  a 1990 Bellflower in excellent original condition showing slight wear for $4,000, and (2) a 1990 Bellflower that has been refinished, and shows slight wear.  How much would you pay for the refinished banjo?"   

Am I hearing three votes for $4,000, and one vote for $2,000?

Given the two available banjos, and if both were priced at $4,000 firm, who would take the refinished banjo?

Factory refinish probably wouldn't hurt too bad.  Except Gibson factory refinish of a pre-war.

Anything non original reduces value. Especially because there are many of them to choose from.

The premise is flawed. People don't refinish banjos they are in excellent condition with slight wear.

The better question is:

"You want to buy a Stelling banjo. You have three choices: (1) a 1990 Bellflower in original condition with no flaws for $4000, (2) a 1990 Bellflower with cloudy and/or checked finish, or (3) a 1990 Bellflower that has been professionally refinished, and shows slight wear. How much would you pay for the cloudy/checked banjo? And how much would you pay for the refinished banjo?"

Couple of things:
Many early Stellings did have lacquer finshes. Later, they were catalyzed varnish.
Some of the ones with bad lacquer (Like Reno's) and some of the ones with bad varnish were refinished at Stelling, so although they are refinished, they are finished to Stelling standards. (I did some of them myself when I was there.) The alternative to refinish on those would be bad finish. Which is worth more on the market?

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

(1) a 1990 Bellflower in original condition with no flaws for $4000

(2) a 1990 Bellflower with cloudy and/or checked finish

(3) a 1990 Bellflower that has been professionally refinished, and shows slight wear

How much would you pay for the cloudy/checked banjo? And how much would you pay for the refinished banjo?"

 

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And, in the real world, where people are actually buying,  the answer is:

#1]  If he's asking $4000, a savvy but legitimate buyer will offer 10% - 15% less, and in most cases he and the seller will come to some kind of agreement.

#2]  At least 20% - 30% less than banjo #1 with the nice original finish.

#3]  Far less than #1, and probably less than #2, unless #2 is really beat up or ugly.

Yes,  the common market standards for originality and desirable condition apply to Stelling in the same manner that they do for other high-grade brands.

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And now that the original Stelling company is not going to make any more banjos, the market for them will change--Drastically.

It might or might not take a little while, but they will become collectible, and as long as people want resonator banjos, Stellings will be treated the same as any other high-quality instruments that are permanently out of production.

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Since John chimed in before I finished writing this, I'll add that a top-notch factory re-finish will probably bring the same as #1, and in many cases will be indistinguishable from the original finish.  But, most other aftermarket finishes will not look like original factory work.  And Stelling will not be doing any more factory re-finishes.

C'mon.  Now y'all are nitpicking!  Don't want to make a choice?    That's OK.

There are no flaws -- there are #1 and (now) #3.  (How the heck did #2 get into the conversation?)

Another vote says #3 is "far less" than $4,000 and "probably less" than 20-30% off.

But we're still speculating about what someone else would pay.  The first question is what would you pay.

The second question is if both #1 and #3 are priced firm at $4,000, and you are in the market for a Stelling, which would you choose?  This is just an intermediate question.  After #1 is chosen, then the next question is how much would #3 have to be discounted to get you to choose #3 instead of #1.  And the answer to that will be one data point in establishing a market discount price when there have not been any actual transactions.

We need information, not speculation!  

The reality is, there isn't a #1 option.

Why would someone refinish a banjo if the original finish is still in good condition?

The choice isn't between a pristine banjo and a refinished banjo. The choice is between a banjo with damaged finish and a refinished banjo.

As with all my instruments, I look for originality. I don’t care if they are 20 years old or 120. If the instrument is refinished, I usually figure a value of 20 to 40 percent less or more than a comparable similar all original instrument.

20% less - Factory refinish.
40% less - Billy Bob in his garage refinish.

Collector colleagues seem to be of the same mind as that is what I based my figures on over the years.

To answer the question: a used instrument sells for $60-75% of its retail value. That's the starting point. Professionally repaired damage that doesn't effect the playability of the instrument at 50% off the parts value. Unrepaired damage that needs to be fixed reduces the value of that part to $0. This is my method of valuation and I've had no issue purchasing or selling banjos at prices within the ranges defined above.

I'm not a banjo collector, and we're not talking about a Prewar Gibson.

If we're talking about collectors value, it's all just guessing. The finish matters a lot less than if a blockbuster Hollywood movie where the star plays a Stelling just came out. There's too many variables for collector value on an item that has 0 historical data. And we haven't seen a convincing argument that Stellings are actually collectible beyond a small group of ardent enthusiasts. Scarcity and discontinued production does not automatically imbue something with collector status. Reiters, Wildwoods, and Stellings aren't collector banjos. 

Thanks to all for the replies.
I didn't want to muddy the waters by saying I also did finish work at Stelling.
I may be trading for the banjo in question and haven't seen it in years. I'll have it in my shop tomorrow and wanted to hear your opinions.
I really hope it doesn't need refinishing but wanted a range in my mind Incase it does.
Though if I did the refinishing it would be nitro.

"The reality is, there isn't a #1 option."

We're not talking options, we're talking choices.  Two Stelling banjos (not parts banjos, pre-war original Gibson 5-strings, some other maker, etc.), same model, same year, are for sale.  One is in excellent original condition, and the other has been refinished by someone other than the original maker, and the refinish is excellent.  The original is priced at $4,000 firm.  Which do you choose, and how much would you be willing to pay for the refinished banjo?

We're not talking, yet, about how much someone else would, ought, might be willing to sell the refinished banjo for.

Simple choice between two, and price.

Nevertheless, the previous two answers provide some useful information to the original poster on how potential buyers may assess the purchase value of the refinished Stelling, compared to the original Stelling.

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex Z

We're not talking options, we're talking choices.  Two Stelling banjos (not parts banjos, pre-war original Gibson 5-strings, some other maker, etc.), same model, same year, are for sale.  One is in excellent original condition, and the other has been refinished by someone other than the original maker, and the refinish is excellent.  The original is priced at $4,000 firm.  Which do you choose, and how much would you be willing to pay for the refinished banjo?

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OK, I'll play. But please understand while my choice is honest and truthful it is also truthful and honest that I would probably never pay $4,000 for any banjo! Just can't do it. Though in inflated dollars, the $650 or so I paid to have a banjo built in 1973 has the purchasing power of $4424 today!

So the truth is the banjos as you describe would look the same to me, I would be happy that a banjo needing refinishing was excellently refinished, and I would pay the same for it as one with an original finish in equally excellent condition. I pretty much have to answer this way since my previous comment was that I don't believe Stellings have vintage value tied to their finish.

Question: What if the major maintenance/repair item was frets? That is, two equal banjos as described above with the only difference is one has barely visible fretwear on its original frets while the other has identical barely visible fretwear on a complete refret from an unknown number of years back? Does that affect the price you'd pay?

By the way: John Hamlett (Sunburst) does gorgeous fretwork.

The market's view on replaced vs. original frets is different from its attitude on finishes.
Thank goodness. Or else we would end up with hundreds of thousands of instruments that aren't playable.

We do have a few who reject refretted instruments, though. I ignore them, just like I would ignore someone who insisted on rusty 40 year old original strings.

Well it turns out there's no need for a refinish. Needs a really good cleaning and polish the nickel but everything is honest play wear. Thanks.

"Well it turns out there's no need for a refinish. Needs a really good cleaning and polish the nickel but everything is honest play wear. Thanks."

All's well that ends well.       Enjoy your Stelling banjo.

there is no factory now, so a refinish, even a good one should bring a little less. 3k or 3.5. same deal with a broken headstock. even if the repair is perfect, i know its there. and yes, every time i picked it up that would bother me a little. but thats me, its how ive been taught to look at things, so what makes it not bother me so much? getting it at a better price. i like the look of nitro, but you sweat on it and it will turn white. Stelling finishes are impeccable.

I was gifted a view of the '76 Bellflower that played in Smokey and the Bandit. I got to play the banjo privately and evaluate the sound compared to other banjos of equal size and specs. I loved the rim with the pyramidal ledge mounting made from Black Walnut. It's the Pre-Tony Pass era. Maple multiple laminated rim with production butt joints offset.
Geoff Stelling made many innovations.
One of which was how his flange mount allowed the use of an Openback type flat heel cut instead of the Gibson extension leg.
The beauty of vintage is that they still play.
The Stelling headstock always looked risky to me. That's just personal preferences,

I really enjoyed the Yellowed Maple under the yellowing finish whatever they use. Enjoy vintaging your Stelling.  Refinishing requires sanding.

For 4K , I want a car, and scholarships for the likes of young Molly Tuttle and Mean Mary, and a banjo.

I wanted to play this choice game but it didnt make sense to me. Too many variables on how each sounds, setup, history, why the refinish etc.

An easier choice for me to make is does refinishing a beat up banjo give THAT Banjo more value.

I would pay more for a banjo with a fixed neck than a broken unplayable neck.

I would buy a cheaper refinished banjo before buying an expensive non playable beater.

With a Stelling, I agree with Zack. Theres plenty to be had, why settle at all?

I can't help but chime in. MAYBE, just MAYBE, at some point not too far down the road Stelling banjos will be built again.... at least we can hope. This entire thing with them not currently being made is REALLY bothering me. Darn it - Someone buy Stelling or work out an agreement with Geoff and get that place up and running again....

quote:

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Originally posted by GStump

I can't help but chime in. MAYBE, just MAYBE, at some point not too far down the road Stelling banjos will be built again.... at least we can hope. This entire thing with them not currently being made is REALLY bothering me. Darn it - Someone buy Stelling or work out an agreement with Geoff and get that place up and running again....

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I agree 100%. It looked to me towards the end Geoff was just doing the final setup and approval before shipping. Someone else was doing all the build and finish work. Stellings are unique enough to compete with all the Masterclones out there for sure and their reputation was second to none. I don't know, maybe there just wasn't enough sales anymore to support the brand to continue regardless of Geoff retiring or not.  

quote:

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...It looked to me towards the end Geoff was just doing the final setup and approval before shipping. Someone else was doing all the build and finish work...

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It was like that from very early on in the life of the company.