When Janet asked me if I could fill in for a TOTW for this week, I thought immediately of doing a love song in honor of Valentine's Day. So here is a love song, or at least what passed as a romantic love song a couple hundred years ago; "Little Margaret" (Lady Margaret and Sweet William Child #74), with lyrics based on famed North Carolina banjo player Obray Ramsey. More about Mr. Ramsey later...
Little Margaret is an OLD song, considered a "folk song" all ready in 1820's America. The song may indeed date back as far as the early 1600's, Thomas Percy quoting it from famed dramatist Francis Beaumont's play The Knights of the Burning Pestle first performed in 1607.
Lady Margaret is one of the Child Ballads, a well known anthology of 305 songs from England and Scotland (and later their American cousins) complied and published by Francis James Child in the mid 19th Century. These ballads were "rediscovered" in the America's by ethnomusicologist's in the early 20th century, a relatively unknown but rich tradition that existed for hundreds of years. almost sight unseen, in the Appalachia's and beyond (later Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas etc.) when those early British Colonists, who became American's after the Revolutionary War, started migrating Westward. A great example of this tradition can be found in Jean Ritchie's version of the ballad, as well as Almeda Riddle's amazing A capella version.
Perhaps the most famous banjo accompanied version of the song was first recorded by that venerable collector of all things Appalachian, folklorist and performer Bascom Lamar Lunsford. His version of the song is probably where Obray Ramsey derived his rendition of it (the folk process in full swing). Where Lunsford played in an upstroke style with up brushes, Obray Ramsey played in a unique North Carolina index lead finger-picking style (see Bob Buckingham's and Don Borchelt's posts in the thread below for some more info about his unique playing style which incorporated various techniques) that was perfectly suited to his laid-back vocal accompaniment. Hedy West also recorded a very cool finger-picked arrangement of the song in 1965, I suppose there's a lot of versions, the song seems to get performed quite a bit through the years.
Obray (pronounced O-Be), along with his cousin fiddler Byard Ray, were not only an amazing banjo-fiddle duo, they were also bonifide pop music stars in the early 70's. When the Earl Scruggs Review come out in the late 60's, record labels (being the unimaginative sorts that they are), scrambled to find other "electrified folk" acts to cash in on this "latest" craze. So in 1970 Polydor Records brought Obray and Byard to New York to record the albums White Lightning and Fresh Air, more than likely the two most authentically odd "old-time" recordings of all time. For their more traditional albums recorded for Prestige, Riverside and Folkways in the late 50's early 60's, their recordings rank as some of the finest (in my opinion) old-time banjo/fiddle duos, as well as Obray being an amazing old-time singer. Travis Stuart of the Stuart Brothers said Obray and Byard were a big influence on him and Trevor's music, the brothers living in the same region of the Great Smokey Mountains as Ramsey and Ray, with Ray having taught fiddle at Berea College for some time.
Lunsford set the song to G modal (gDGCD) and Obray plays it there too (or so I thought... Don Borchelt points out below that he's actually in standard G). I play it in G modal (usually tuned a quarter or half step low) to accompany my voice, which unfortunately (to quote Leo Kottke), sounds like "geese f@rts on a muggy day." So be it, I apologize in advance. Obray's lyrics are here, and the traditional lyrics (and some more history of the tune from over the pond) are here. The song is played entirely on the third and second frets, unless you want to slide from the 2nd to 5th fret of the second string to grab the high part. I play it in 2 finger thumb lead here, grabbing those high notes with Roscoe Holcomb's TTI "lick." It's an easy song to play and sing, and a good one to keep in the air due to it's history and age, so give it a whirl, a true "lovers ballad" from long, long ago... just don't sing it to your current beau or beauette, they might not appreciate the "I'd rather have another woman" love interest.... or maybe they would... because you know... times have certainly changed-haha!
Happy picking and take care!
Edited by - RG on 02/19/2023 11:30:53
Valentine's Day, I'm in doubt! Did you see Rhiannon Gidden's Little Margaret version? Too bad there's no banjo. I like your banjo accompaniment, RG.
I guess we can call this a variation of "Shady Grove, or is it the other way around? Some of those Child Ballads are pretty gruesome. I'll spare the details.... I like to play/sing lots of songs and ballads thumb lead style, kinda handy as you show. Thanks! banjered
hahaha-ok, the Valentine's Day angle was a stretch Janet, I confess. I had never heard Rhiannon's rendition Janet, thank you for posting that and thanks for the kind words!
Tom, yeah, a lot of those old ballads are pretty gruesome, but some are really beautiful songs... my papa (born in 1899) used to really like "Barbra, Barbary, Barbara Allen", and when you can approach it like Tom Rush does (not banjo, but still my favorite version), it can really take on a life of its own. I surmise that Bascom just lifted that tune and fit it to Little Margaret since it essentially dropped right in... when you hear the ballad singers versions, it's a different melody to my (somewhat deaf and years of flying) ears. Thanks for the "thanks!"
Interesting take on the ballad and the banjo accompaniment. Obray played in a three finger stye and used the backward roll prominently. This arrangement catches some of what he did but listening to Obray is a treat too. Listen here.
I also like this version (Karen Dalton):
youtube.com/watch?v=FKcqHY_NxRc
The first version I heard. Might have been learned from Lunsford.
quote:
Originally posted by Bob BuckinghamInteresting take on the ballad and the banjo accompaniment. Obray played in a three finger stye and used the backward roll prominently. This arrangement catches some of what he did but listening to Obray is a treat too. Listen here.
That's interesting Bob, I I knew he played 3 finger (thinking "Rain & Snow") but ... Travis Stuart showed me a two finger style of his, and the link I posted from the Blue Ridge National Heritage Area listed his playing as "an idiosyncratic two-finger banjo style." I always assumed he was playing index lead on the version I learned this song from (1957's "Blue Ridge Banjo" album), but it makes sense that maybe it is three finger as he was originally a guitar player and didn't get his first banjo until 1953 from my understanding (a gift from Bascom Lamar) and three finger style was in full swing. I posted both Lunsford's and Obray's versions in my post, interesting to compare. On that same album "Blue Ridge Banjo" he plays "Cripple Creek" and it sure sounds like NC index lead to me, while other songs are definitely 3 finger, but then my ears at 62 ain't what they used to be (if they ever were). Thanks for the post!
Edited by - RG on 02/18/2023 12:27:58
quote:
Originally posted by Bill RogersThe first version I heard. Might have been learned from Lunsford.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz4Cg5-zzg0
Pete's version is great, thanks for posting it BIll, I tend to forget how good an old-time player Pete was... this sure reminded me. He did learn the song from Bascom.
quote:
Originally posted by Bob BuckinghamInteresting take on the ballad and the banjo accompaniment. Obray played in a three finger stye and used the backward roll prominently. This arrangement catches some of what he did but listening to Obray is a treat too. Listen here.
That's a live version I've never heard Bob, very interesting, it does seem to differ a little from the album version, I would imagine this is from around their "Fresh Air" period which is a VERY interesting arrangement to say the least... and unfortunately only available at the link I posted above.
quote:
Originally posted by Bob BuckinghamInteresting take on the ballad and the banjo accompaniment. Obray played in a three finger stye and used the backward roll prominently...
This is a great choice for TOTW, and RG, you do a great job of it, way down low there, deep in the holler. I discovered Obray Ramsey early on, when I found a couple of his Prestige albums in a Zayre's cut-out bin. One was Obray Ramsey Sings Jimmy Rodgers Favorites; I can't remember the name of the second one, which got lost in a move when I was in college. Anyway, he was a big influence on me, and was one of the reasons I quit playing clawhammer and just concentrated on three finger style. I tabbed out the break best I could from the Blue Ridge Banjo album, below. I've also attached it in PDF format. He's definitely not in sawmill (gDGCD), he's in plain old standard G (gDGBD), but tuned down a bit, which is how I know he's not in sawmill. He hits that open 2nd string quite a bit. He just sings it like he is, the way Ralph Stanley always did. As Bob said, Ramsey leans a lot on a sort of backward roll, but it's not the the typical Scruggs backward roll (MITMITMI). Ramsey favored his own patterns.
Back in 1965, David Hoffman produced a wonderful hour long video about Bascom Lamar Lunsford, and recently put the whole thing up on YouTube. He has posted the segment about Ramsey separately, which you can find here. Ramsey tells how it was Lunsford who talked him into moving from guitar to banjo, and gave him his first banjo. I strongly recommend watching the whole thing, it's the best hour you will spend in a long while.
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 02/18/2023 15:03:59
quote:
Originally posted by Don Borcheltquote:
Originally posted by Bob BuckinghamInteresting take on the ballad and the banjo accompaniment. Obray played in a three finger stye and used the backward roll prominently...
This is a great choice for TOTW, and RG, you do a great job of it, way down low there, deep in the holler. I discovered Obray Ramsey early on, when I found a couple of his Prestige albums in a Zayre's cut-out bin. One was Obray Ramsey Sings Jimmy Rodgers Favorites; I can't remember the name of the second one, which got lost in a move when I was in college. Anyway, he was a big influence on me, and was one of the reasons I quit playing clawhammer and just concentrated on three finger style. I tabbed out the break best I could from the Blue Ridge Banjo album, below. I've also attached it in PDF format. He's definitely not in sawmill (gDGCD), he's in plain old standard G (gDGBD), but tuned down a bit, which is how I know he's not in sawmill. He hits that open 2nd string quite a bit. He just sings it like he is, the way Ralph Stanley always did. As Bob said, Ramsey leans a lot on a sort of backward roll, but it's not the the typical Scruggs backward roll (MITMITMI). Ramsey favored his own patterns.
Back in 1965, David Hoffman produced a wonderful hour long video about Bascom Lamar Lunsford, and recently put the whole thing up on YouTube. He has posted the segment about Ramsey separately, which you can find here. Ramsey tells how it was Lunsford who talked him into moving from guitar to banjo, and gave him his first banjo. I strongly recommend watching the whole thing, it's the best hour you will spend in a long while.
Thanks for the kind words and thanks for the links Don, GREAT stuff! I was trying to find that Bascom Lamar Lunsford video link and just couldn't get it together on Friday when I posted this... that video is really cool. Wild about the tuning, for all these years I thought he was tuned to Gm... I know Lunsford was and just assumed Obray was too... shows how bad my ear is-hahaha! Never assume! Thanks for shedding more light on this song and Obray Ramsey.
BTW, that Obray Ramsey Jimmie Rodgers album is fantastic!
A picking buddy of mine, Troy Harrison Madison Banjo is his handle here, learned banjo from Obray and he has shared a lot of information with me that has been enlightening. Obray was not bluegrass player and like many three finger players he might play two finger for all or part of a piece. It is a thumb lead as is the way in NC. Ralph Stanley was more of an index lead player and his early recordings show that when was transitioning from two-finger to three. He also had a distinctive clawhammer approach. Today people are a lot more caught up in the technique, back a century or 3/4's of one it was more about gittn'er done in time and in tune.
quote:
Originally posted by Bob BuckinghamA picking buddy of mine, Troy Harrison Madison Banjo is his handle here, learned banjo from Obray and he has shared a lot of information with me that has been enlightening. Obray was not bluegrass player and like many three finger players he might play two finger for all or part of a piece. It is a thumb lead as is the way in NC. Ralph Stanley was more of an index lead player and his early recordings show that when was transitioning from two-finger to three. He also had a distinctive clawhammer approach. Today people are a lot more caught up in the technique, back a century or 3/4's of one it was more about gittn'er done in time and in tune.
I was afraid when I mentioned Ralph that someone would conclude that I thought Obray's and Ralph's picking were similar. Clearly they aren't, and while Ralph never referred to his music as bluegrass, he is far closer to it, while Obray is not at all. My only point was that on this number, Obray was playing in a major tuning on the banjo while singing in a way that leaned more modal/minor, creating a softly discordant tension between the major and minor sound, much the way Ralph did when he stayed in standard G (sometimes capoed as high as the 5th fret), while also singing in a more modal way, as he did with Pretty Polly, man of Constant Sorrow, and Little Maggie.
quote:
Originally posted by Don Borcheltquote:
Originally posted by Bob BuckinghamA picking buddy of mine, Troy Harrison Madison Banjo is his handle here, learned banjo from Obray and he has shared a lot of information with me that has been enlightening. Obray was not bluegrass player and like many three finger players he might play two finger for all or part of a piece. It is a thumb lead as is the way in NC. Ralph Stanley was more of an index lead player and his early recordings show that when was transitioning from two-finger to three. He also had a distinctive clawhammer approach. Today people are a lot more caught up in the technique, back a century or 3/4's of one it was more about gittn'er done in time and in tune.
I was afraid when I mentioned Ralph that someone would conclude that I thought Obray's and Ralph's picking were similar. Clearly they aren't, and while Ralph never referred to his music as bluegrass, he is far closer to it, while Obray is not at all. My only point was that on this number, Obray was playing in a major tuning on the banjo while singing in a way that leaned more modal/minor, creating a softly discordant tension between the major and minor sound, much the way Ralph did when he stayed in standard G (sometimes capoed as high as the 5th fret), while also singing in a more modal way, as he did with Pretty Polly, man of Constant Sorrow, and Little Maggie.
Never meant to infer they were similar, I was trying to point out the differences between them. They share much in common as they both represent a generation and time gone by, but stylistically they are quite different. The mix of major and modal sounds is a hallmark of early country music. The hippies put the minor chords into the music in the 60's and 70's as they rolled in from their pop folk gateway.
quote:
Originally posted by RG
Thanks for the kind words and thanks for the links Don, GREAT stuff! I was trying to find that Bascom Lamar Lunsford video link and just couldn't get it together on Friday when I posted this... that video is really cool. Wild about the tuning, for all these years I thought he was tuned to Gm... I know Lunsford was and just assumed Obray was too... shows how bad my ear is-hahaha! Never assume! Thanks for shedding more light on this song and Obray Ramsey.BTW, that Obray Ramsey Jimmie Rodgers album is fantastic!
I would strongly suggest folks watch the whole video, it is really great. I'll make it easy...
I think Lunsford was tuned in sawmill—not Gm. Same with Pete Seeger. To hear what Gm sounds like, listen to John Hardy by any of the Seegers.
I'm working on it… It will be in double-D, clawhammer…
quote:
Originally posted by Bob BuckinghamA picking buddy of mine, Troy Harrison Madison Banjo is his handle here, learned banjo from Obray and he has shared a lot of information with me that has been enlightening. Obray was not bluegrass player and like many three finger players he might play two finger for all or part of a piece. It is a thumb lead as is the way in NC. Ralph Stanley was more of an index lead player and his early recordings show that when was transitioning from two-finger to three. He also had a distinctive clawhammer approach. Today people are a lot more caught up in the technique, back a century or 3/4's of one it was more about gittn'er done in time and in tune.
Would love to pick Troy's brain about Obray. Yes, the old-timers just played... whatever got you the sound you wanted, that's what you did.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill RogersI think Lunsford was tuned in sawmill—not Gm. Same with Pete Seeger. To hear what Gm sounds like, listen to John Hardy by any of the Seegers.
You are right Bill, in my rush to post Friday afternoon I typed Gm (which is of course gDGBbD) instead of "modal." I had the actual tuning right, but not the nomenclature Thanks for the editorial.
This is the best I can do short-term. In a couple of weeks it will be better, especially the vocals. Banjo: openback Tubaphone Vega Nr. 2 by Deering. Tuning: double-C capoed up to D. Playing-style: clawhammer.
Edited by - Emiel on 02/20/2023 09:12:25
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