Perish the thought!!

I’m of the school that scooped necks are a fad that will in time just fade away…

Never understood the concept and always felt that it fostered bad playing technique. And yes, I know that there are hundreds of folks who will disagree with me.

I’m a vintage person, own and play vintage instruments, so maybe that is the basis of my bias.

There are many extremely talented makers out there now, building some of the finest instruments that have ever been built. Works of art with amazing playability.

I just don’t care for scoops .

Luddite.

quote:

Yes,  I think the affliction of pseudo "Round Peake" banjo making is subsiding somewhat and makers are starting to make banjo necks properly,  fretted so they can be played in the higher positions.   Lol  I have 2 banjos with scoops both obtained 15-20 years ago when the scoop was all the rage.  They become problems when I am playing in finger style and I run out of neck  on the top.

The scoop is not an "old time" thing but an alteration one or two makers in North Carolina, notably Kyle Creed,  added to some, not all, of the banjos he made beginning in the 1950s or 1960s.

It would be an utter desecration which should probably be punished by incarceration and seizure of the banjo in question and its restitution to the original fretted state if someone ever did it to any David Day creation like your (or my)  Fairbanks and Vega Banjos.

If you can point to someone who did that to a Vintage banjo or someone suggested that,  legal action should be launched to seize that person's banjos and provide said person with mental health care,

 

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Originally posted by Bill H

As one afflicted with BAS I regularly browse banjo classifieds and dealer websites, but my main focus has mostly been on vintage banjos. I have a number of Vega and Fairbanks banjos and tend to browse used banjos mostly.

Recently I became curious about new open backs and went to the Music Emporium website to look at their offerings. Every single new banjo for sale had a scooped neck. Has the scooped neck become the standard rather than a niche option for a certain style player?

A banjo altered in this way it seems to me would be limited to a very narrow playing style.

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Thank you

It has recently come to light that the "old time scoop" as we know it-- as opposed to the early rimmed banjos that have an aesthetic design to the neck, was first developed by the late Bob Flesher, Galax champion, in 1965.

This was relayed by Clifton Hicks quoiting an interview that George Gibson had with Bob.

The timing seems to add up and this claim seems plausible and likely true.

That said, it took some decades for them to become common as they are today.

quote:

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Originally posted by Alvin Conder

Perish the thought!!

I’m of the school that scooped necks are a fad that will in time just fade away…

Never understood the concept and always felt that it fostered bad playing technique. And yes, I know that there are hundreds of folks who will disagree with me.

I’m a vintage person, own and play vintage instruments, so maybe that is the basis of my bias.

There are many extremely talented makers out there now, building some of the finest instruments that have ever been built. Works of art with amazing playability.

I just don’t care for scoops .

Luddite.

---

I'm with you Alvin! I also think scoops is a fad, I won't build a banjo with a scoop. I've turned down many orders folks wanting a scoop. I'm sticking to Kyle style building.  All these folks claiming Kyle made banjos with scoops just doesn't know the facts.  Documenting over a hundred Kyle Creed banjos there was one scooped Kyle banjo that was scooped out by the owner. 

How long does something need to be standard practice before it ceases to be a 'fad'? Honest question.

Scooped necks, at least right now, are certainly the standard. It's difficult to find a modern open-back banjo without a scooped neck, excluding the super cheap PacRim imports of course and a few boutique shops. Obviously there are some makers, as we see here, and that's great, but they're the minority.

As much as I think they're generally unnecessary, musically limiting, and aesthetically unpleasing, I don't thing they're a fad. There will always be some makers that don't scoop the fretboard, but the major players all do and the general consensus for the under-35 crowd is that scoops are a standard part of banjo design and improve playability and tone.

Deering, Gold Tone, and Recording King scoop the majority of their openback fretboards. Nearly all small shop makers do as well. It's been like this for several years. The reason they do that is because the market demands it, and scooped necks sell better. I don't see any indication that will change any time soon.

What about vintage Dobson banjos?

I know it's not a 'scoop' per se, but don't most of them have a plate near the rim and <22 frets? Looking at photos it looks like most Dobson's have 15-19 frets with a "pseudo-scoop" covering the rest of the fretboard. Where does this fall on the "scoop spectrum"?

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

What about vintage Dobson banjos?

I know it's not a 'scoop' per se, but don't most of them have a plate near the rim and <22 frets? Looking at photos it looks like most Dobson's have 15-19 frets with a "pseudo-scoop" covering the rest of the fretboard. Where does this fall on the "scoop spectrum"?

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It doesn't. It's a convenient means to intonate upper register notes from a time when strings were often false. It's not a scoop or a "strike plate" as some old time players call it. 

I'm seeing a definite trend towards open-back banjos coming with a scoop as standard e.g the new Goldtone High Moon, Deering Vega Vintage Star, Recording King models. I don't really get the straight scoop thing as most players can comfortably play over the neck with the right set-up (or, they play over-the-head and don't seem to need the scoop); a partial thumb scoop gives more options e.g Nechville Atlas. Hopefully leaves more vintage banjos for players who don't want a scoop!

Scooped open backs sell better and that's the bottom line. The marketplace has spoken.

I don't play in that area with either left or right hand. I think a scoop looks nicer and more interesting than a bunch of useless frets.

“Useless frets” is a matter for the player. Some of us do use the high frets. And many players don’t play over the neck.

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

What about vintage Dobson banjos?

I know it's not a 'scoop' per se, but don't most of them have a plate near the rim and <22 frets? Looking at photos it looks like most Dobson's have 15-19 frets with a "pseudo-scoop" covering the rest of the fretboard. Where does this fall on the "scoop spectrum"?

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The reason for this is covered in detail in the patent and was explained by John.  The metal extension was the total opposite of a "scoop".  It extends the gamut of the instrument where as the "scoop" reduces the gamut.

Since fingerboard extensions (for more notes in the higher register) was nothing new, the patent invention was to make the extension removable so that one could replace the head without removing the neck.  A pretty novel idea.

I like very low action and I like to play over the neck for some songs. Those two things are not compatible because the frets get in the way. Therefore, I either need a scoop or, I can simply remove four or five frets and fill the slots in with wood to make my fretboard flat at the top of the neck. If you play with high action (and lots of banjo players do) then it's not a problem to play over the neck without a scoop.

I think we are waaaaaay past the time where we can call scoops a fad, although this kind of thread has historically self-selected for the scoop haters, so you may get a false impression that scoops are a passing fancy.

quote:

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Originally posted by doryman

I like very low action and I like to play over the neck for some songs. Those two things are not compatible because the frets get in the way. Therefore, I either need a scoop or, I can simply remove four or five frets and fill the slots in with wood to make my fretboard flat at the top of the neck. If you play with high action (and lots of banjo players do) then it's not a problem to play over the neck without a scoop.

I think we are waaaaaay past the time where we can call scoops a fad, although this kind of thread has historically self-selected for the scoop haters, so you may get a false impression that scoops are a passing fancy.

---

I am only a "scoop" hater when it comes to classic era banjos.  I die a little inside every time I see someone inflict that sort of damage. 

New banjos, on the other hand, have at it!  In fact, much of the current style of banjo building is based around modern ideas as builders are finally designing to the needs of the modern festival/jam style old time player.

I think the idea of the modern "old time" banjo is a great evolution.   But I do not like when people try to invent some sort of historical (before 1965) significance to it.

To many people, the ideal that the evolving and current form of "old time" banjo is modern is uncomfortable and they need that "authentic" nostalgia fantasy. 

quote:

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Originally posted by doryman

I like very low action and I like to play over the neck for some songs. Those two things are not compatible because the frets get in the way. Therefore, I either need a scoop or, I can simply remove four or five frets and fill the slots in with wood to make my fretboard flat at the top of the neck. If you play with high action (and lots of banjo players do) then it's not a problem to play over the neck without a scoop.

I think we are waaaaaay past the time where we can call scoops a fad, although this kind of thread has historically self-selected for the scoop haters, so you may get a false impression that scoops are a passing fancy.

---

Not so much a scoop hater, this is a matter of personal preference, but I was surprised to see that there are so few open back banjos available without a scoop. I can see it as an option, but what surprised me was that a store where I remember seeing mostly fully fretted banjos less than five years ago was offering exclusively scooped necks. I would never consider buying one because I do not play over the neck, and I also notice that many who play scooped neck banjos do not play over the neck.

"Scoops" are not a modern invention. Only the term "scoop" is modern.

Early banjos, relying on gourds and very thin hoops, needed a reliable way to transfer string compression away from the "rim". This was commonly done by passing the rim-rod completely through the gourd or rim and attaching the tailpiece to the distal end.

Since gourds and other unmachined rims are usually irregular in shape, utilizing a transition area between the fingerboard and "rim" obviated the need for any close fitting of the two.

This produced a "scooped" area where the instrument could be articulated over the neck ... even if this was not the intention for the feature.

I think it fair to say that modern scooped instruments did not appear out of the void and as such have historical precedent.

As a final thought; Since the earliest banjos generally possessed this transitional gap (read scoop) and were fretless, one could make the statement that fretted, unscooped banjos may just be a fad.

BTW; I am a scoop lover. I won't buy a banjo that ain't scooped, have never played or intend to use any fret below the tenth for playing or the twelfth for bridge placement.

I play all the way up to the 17th fret. Not all the time, but sometimes. I don't much care what happens after that - my right hand stays right at the edge of the pot, so the scoop is sort of useless, but so too would be any fret higher than the 17th. I guess if I were ordering a new banjo and had my druthers, I'd say "no scoop", although I do like the aesthetics of the strikeplate.

I don't care what people say,

Banjo scoops are here to stay!

--Burma Shave

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill H

..... and I also notice that many who play scooped neck banjos do not play over the neck.

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I agree, I seldom see folks play over the scoop, even if they have one.  However, I almost never play over the scoop when I'm in a big, loud jam because I can't make my banjo loud enough to be heard when I play it that way.  So a lot of folks I play with may think that I never play over the scoop either!  I most play over the scoop when I'm playing solo, or in a small group. 

quote:

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Originally posted by mrphysics55

"Scoops" are not a modern invention. Only the term "scoop" is modern.

Early banjos, relying on gourds and very thin hoops, needed a reliable way to transfer string compression away from the "rim". This was commonly done by passing the rim-rod completely through the gourd or rim and attaching the tailpiece to the distal end.

Since gourds and other unmachined rims are usually irregular in shape, utilizing a transition area between the fingerboard and "rim" obviated the need for any close fitting of the two.

This produced a "scooped" area where the instrument could be articulated over the neck ... even if this was not the intention for the feature.

I think it fair to say that modern scooped instruments did not appear out of the void and as such have historical precedent.

As a final thought; Since the earliest banjos generally possessed this transitional gap (read scoop) and were fretless, one could make the statement that fretted, unscooped banjos may just be a fad.

BTW; I am a scoop lover. I won't buy a banjo that ain't scooped, have never played or intend to use any fret below the tenth for playing or the twelfth for bridge placement.

---

Both of the photos you provided show anachronistic, modern instruments inspired in some ways by historic ones. The gourd banjo in particular is a fantasy since there are no surviving early gourd banjos to copy. Check this out instead and note the lack of a scoop:

https://www.banjopete.com/haitian-banza.html

quote:I have just been corrected by the current dean of making Round Peake banjos that scoops were not actually introduced by Kyle Creed but by revivalist Bob Fleshner, a banjoist, banjo historian, banjo maker, and wonderful human being who has passed away and left a big hole in many hearts by no longer being with us

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Originally posted by writerrad

quote:

Yes,  I think the affliction of pseudo "Round Peake" banjo making is subsiding somewhat and makers are starting to make banjo necks properly,  fretted so they can be played in the higher positions.   Lol  I have 2 banjos with scoops both obtained 15-20 years ago when the scoop was all the rage.  They become problems when I am playing in finger style and I run out of neck  on the top.

The scoop is not an "old time" thing but an alteration one or two makers in North Carolina, notably Kyle Creed,  added to some, not all, of the banjos he made beginning in the 1950s or 1960s.

It would be an utter desecration which should probably be punished by incarceration and seizure of the banjo in question and its restitution to the original fretted state if someone ever did it to any David Day creation like your (or my)  Fairbanks and Vega Banjos.

If you can point to someone who did that to a Vintage banjo or someone suggested that,  legal action should be launched to seize that person's banjos and provide said person with mental health care,

 

---

Originally posted by Bill H

As one afflicted with BAS I regularly browse banjo classifieds and dealer websites, but my main focus has mostly been on vintage banjos. I have a number of Vega and Fairbanks banjos and tend to browse used banjos mostly.

Recently I became curious about new open backs and went to the Music Emporium website to look at their offerings. Every single new banjo for sale had a scooped neck. Has the scooped neck become the standard rather than a niche option for a certain style player?

A banjo altered in this way it seems to me would be limited to a very narrow playing style.

---

 

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The reality is that many of these measures and affectations are done for no musical reason, but with the idea that they are "old time" and are thus more "authentic."  The kind of revivalists who are keenest at such things are also unaware how many of the major players of old time music as a genre which did flower and take the form we know of it from say 1910 to 1970 treasured resonator banjos when they could get them.

The danger is that the particular style and tactics of a handful of players in one local area has become the accepted style for all "old time" players.

The wider variety of actual old time styles that flourished and were recorded in the first 4 decades of the 20th century and the great players that many of my generation (75) treasured in the 60s and 70s are often largely unknown among  the last 10=15 years crop of revivalist banjoists.

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

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Originally posted by doryman

I like very low action and I like to play over the neck for some songs. Those two things are not compatible because the frets get in the way. Therefore, I either need a scoop or, I can simply remove four or five frets and fill the slots in with wood to make my fretboard flat at the top of the neck. If you play with high action (and lots of banjo players do) then it's not a problem to play over the neck without a scoop.

I think we are waaaaaay past the time where we can call scoops a fad, although this kind of thread has historically self-selected for the scoop haters, so you may get a false impression that scoops are a passing fancy.

---

I am only a "scoop" hater when it comes to classic era banjos.  I die a little inside every time I see someone inflict that sort of damage. 

New banjos, on the other hand, have at it!  In fact, much of the current style of banjo building is based around modern ideas as builders are finally designing to the needs of the modern festival/jam style old time player.

I think the idea of the modern "old time" banjo is a great evolution.   But I do not like when people try to invent some sort of historical (before 1965) significance to it.

To many people, the ideal that the evolving and current form of "old time" banjo is modern is uncomfortable and they need that "authentic" nostalgia fantasy. 

 

---

Everyone has their own style and sound. Personally I learned plunky sounding round peak tunes when I was learning and so that's what sounds right to me. So when I had a 1923 Whyte Laydie tenor converted, I had Mike Ramsey include a scoop. On the other hand, Cathy Fink told me she does not like that sound, she likes a sharper sound and plays over the head. To each his/her own. But I do agree, no one should retrofit a scoop on a vintage banjo.

Scoops are for ice cream, not banjos.