banjohangout.org/archive/267176

One-piece flange came after two-piece. Even though it is the structurally inferior option, it is more desirable. I believe Earl Scruggs playing a Gibson flathead banjo with one-piece flange made that configuration more popular.

It was a wartime shortage of copper and zinc. the addition of tin makes bronze.
So pot metal was substituted, and yes, they pickle. I bought 3 broken ones and bandsawed the corners off to make a short shouldered flanges, lighter weight.

The Tube and Plate form an optical illusion that looks like the OPF.
The tpf rims are upside down and can allow the use of an open back flat cut heel.

I make open back tube banjos for this reason: no holes in the rim.

TPF came first. Structurally superior design. Can last forever.

OPF came second, as a cost cutting measure. The flanges eventually pull up. But sometimes accidents happen in the universe. The OPF sound became the standard. There is no end to the mysteries of what makes the vibrations of the bucket of wood and metal of a banjo sound best.

Oh no not this again

There are fewer OPF Gibsons, pre-war anyway, than two piece. That also pushes their value up, but the MAIN reason is that Snuffy, Earl, Don, Rudy, Sonny and JD played them. Ralph Stanley was the leading player of two piece flange Mastertones.

It's intresting to me that when Gibson finally figured out what the banjo market really wanted in the late 1960s (the pre-war looks, and sound if possible) they redesigned the RB 250 to look "old" and went back to the two piece flange.  They stuck with that configuration until about 1984 when the first Earl Scruggs Model went back to the one piece flange.  By 1987 all models went back to the one piece flange.  It was quite noticeable that when they brought out the reissue RB-5 (like Ralph Stanley's banjo) in the early 1990s, they used the two piece flange only for that model.

I am thinking the two piece pushes inward along with upward and the one piece only pushes upward--it might matter more on a flathead if it matters at all

It is the perception of many of the pre-war Gibson enthusiasts, that the one-piece flange is one of the banjo components that contributes to the so-called pre-war sound. That's one of the reasons why the one-piece flange is often preferred.

if Earl played a 2pc flange raised head, thats what we all would be chasing

Although, an RB-250 from the mid 70's makes good firewood, I had one, no way to setup
a turd to where it wont stink

I think the thing to remember about 'prewar' Gibsons is that we are talking about Depression era instruments.

There was a huge drop off in banjo sales (and just about everything else) after October 1929. Gibson sold very few banjos and they could only afford to produce what was selling. So there just aren't a lot of these banjos. This rarity adds a lot to their higher asking prices.

Pot metal flanges started around 1929 (go figure). Ones from 1930 ones can be subject to zinc pest.

I have a Kel Kroydon KK10. Sounds pretty good.

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Originally posted by bluenote23

Pot metal tension hoops can tulip.

 

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Originally posted by Helix

It was a wartime shortage of copper and zinc. the addition of tin makes bronze.
So pot metal was substituted, and yes, they pickle. I bought 3 broken ones and bandsawed the corners off to make a short shouldered flanges, lighter weight.

The Tube and Plate form an optical illusion that looks like the OPF.
The tpf rims are upside down and can allow the use of an open back flat cut heel.

I make open back tube banjos for this reason: no holes in the rim.

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Wartime metal shortages had nothing to do with it (although your alloy formulations appear correct). The pot metal one piece came well before the Nazis became a problem.

Pot metal was widely used in the 1920's for many items because it was a cheap alternative to better materials and could be easily cast, saving even more money.

FWIW, Gibson continued to use the 2PF for its high-end, custom ordered models like the Florentine and Bella Voce. I've played Dick Smith's PW Florentine and Randy Barrett's PW Style 6, and they're great banjos, PERIOD. Some discerning souls may be able to feel and hear the difference between 1PF and 2PF banjos, Dick's and Randy's take a backseat to no banjo!

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Originally posted by Helix

It was a wartime shortage of copper and zinc. the addition of tin makes bronze.
So pot metal was substituted

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No.

The one-piece flange was introduced in 1929: 12 years before the U.S. entered WWII. And throughout the 1930s, Gibson produced thousands of banjos with bronze-alloy tone rings.

I believe the switch to one-piece flange was driven by economies of both materials and production time: One part (of cheaper material) that did the job of two.

I have always felt the thicker rim of the 2 pc. is what has the most effect on any sound difference. I do not recall the amount of thickness difference, but the skirt is noticeably heavier.

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by Helix

It was a wartime shortage of copper and zinc. the addition of tin makes bronze.
So pot metal was substituted

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No.

The one-piece flange was introduced in 1929: 12 years before the U.S. entered WWII. And throughout the 1930s, Gibson produced thousands of banjos with bronze-alloy tone rings.

I believe the switch to one-piece flange was driven by economies of both materials and production time: One part (of cheaper material) that did the job of two.

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I always felt that the design changes Gibson made were almost always done for cost savings. The archtop tone ring was a single piece casting fitted on a lathe turned rim, replacing the complex ball bearing setup with its drilled holes, springs and multi-part ring. One piece flange was easier to make than two piece, could be made out of cheaper metal, and was easier to fit on the rim - again, a lathe turned down the bottom half of the rim as opposed to the built-out lip that kept the tube of the two-piece flange in place. I have heard that the switch from fiddle to double cut headstock was made because the double cut could be shaped with a spinning sander as opposed to the hand work of the fiddle shape.

I don't know if the flathead ring was an economy move. Gibson never stopped making archtops till the top tension banjos came out, and each ring was preferred in a different style banjo (archtops in TBs, flatheads in PBs and RBs). It also doesn't seem like there was much cost savings in making a single casting one shape instead of another. So the change in ring design was likely done for acoustical reasons.

I've always preferred two piece flanges because of durability, having warped my share of prewar zamac one piece flanges (ok, one). I think both configurations have enough latitude in sound that each can be set up to sound like the other, at least in my experience. My last two prewars have been 2PF - partly opportunity, but also partly preference. I sold a prewar OPF Granada with a broken flange and the value took a hit because of it.

lightgauge I enjoy making upside down rims that don't have a 10-3/4" O.D. ledge to pull up over. For an openback, the tube goes between the studs, the same resonator hardware can be used if needed.

I like the light weight and strength of the tubes, the ledge I make is Black Walnut inserts using a Gibson-like U channel.
The big deal is not having to cut a Bluegrass heel to play bluegrass. The '76 Bellflower rim is an excercise in design. I got to see the "Smoky and the Bandit" banjo over here in my shop and I started using Black Walnut inserts for the ledge.

If I'm wrong, it's ok, a lot of people got the real information because I was wrong. I feel better already. the broken flanges I bought will get used again without the nickel plating, just dull grey, they work just fine with "Patina."

I read that the Gibson machinists were so good they could turn the rims so that the tube stayed up over the ledge so they could be assembled right side up instead of upside down. I like that feature and I use it myself for efficiency.