Kind of like “preaching to the choir” ?

I thought it was an interesting read...a couple of studies cited, and some resources for fact checking.

Perspective vs perception.

1) Did Hitler believe he was evil? ... Well, I dont care what Hitler thought about himself so Ill stay in my echo chamber.

2) Is a Golden Retriever smarter than a Border Collie? ... Not very interesting, but as a Border Collie owner Im willing to let you try to convince me another dog is smarter even though Im pretty set in my belief.

#1 is an extreme example of something hard or impossible to change my mind on.
#2 is easy to discuss and might change my mind.

So now some stranger brings up a #3 that counters your thinking. In the strangers mind, it is like closer to easy #2 but in your mind they are talking closer to #1.

And when two #1s clash with opposite opinions? Hopeless harmful behavior. Better to stay in echo chambers.

We all have #1s taught to us that are our beliefs that directly contradict others #1s. Echo chambers arent always bad.

Which comes back around to the question of opinion vs. fact...often times, opinions and hearsay are argued as fact, with no evidence to support them.

“You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

- Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Its not that simple. Some beliefs are defacto truth to the believer ie #1 and they arent always arguing, its just perceived that way.

One can believe as a fact all people who kill should be thrown in a pit of vipers.

which is different than

All people who kill will be thrown in a pit of vipers...belief not fact

But those who oppose feeding people to snakes wont discriminate between the two 9 times out of 10.

" All people who kill will be thrown in a pit of vipers...belief not fact"

I would say neither...more of an empirical statement.

"It will rain tomorrow"...an empirical statement that may be either true...or false.

"Beliefs" can either be supported by fact(s), or opinion and hearsay.

Beliefs can be flawed...whether felt, expressed, argued, or defended.

The reasoning is in the "why"...get to that, and you'll be able to determine which side it comes from.

Not complex...just hard work.

Considering the state of the world Id say its complex. Reading comprehension isnt doing well anymore. I was lending insight not making the argument that anything I stated apriori was my personal modus nor that I believe people should be convinced that beliefs are fact...FYI.

But I do agree with a few things in the above post. I just dont think its pursuasive to those I reference in my discussion and such basis of approach is flawed. Meaning stating your facts to refute thier beliefs is whistling in a hurricane.

I personally am not interested in refuting people's beliefs, just logical fallacies and false arguments.

Good subject n thread...

aka group think.

I'm sure we've all inadvertently found ourselves in spaces where we hear the same narrow world view repeated and reinforced by the people who frequent that space. Rather than accept analysis, dissent and alternative world views as healthy and normal the inhabitants demonise and ostracise any expression of views that challenge their own. It can be summarised by the phrase: "You're either with us or against us." Think Orwell's 'Animal Farm'.

Group think is a significant problem in many organisations and communities as it inhibits development potential, demotivates talent and creates an oppressive and rigid monoculture. The paradox is that group-think appears to the participants as 'strength' and growth. But evidence reveals that the opposite is the case and that it is a clear indicator of a culture of incompetence and a forewarning  ofdecline. No matter how self-detrimental the group think is, it is never perceived as such by the group-thinkers. It basically arises from a pack-mentality and, in business, employees prioritising their position and career advancement by never contradicting management.

William Golding's 'Lord of the Flies' is another fascinating exploration of this behaviour in fiction. Golding used the allegory of a group of young boys isolated on an island to explore the psychological, moral and emotional dynamics.

quote:

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Originally posted by quartertoner

aka group think.

I'm sure we've all inadvertently found ourselves in spaces where we hear the same narrow world view repeated and reinforced by the people who frequent that space. Rather than accept analysis, dissent and alternative world views as healthy and normal the inhabitants demonise and ostracise any expression of views that challenge their own. It can be summarised by the phrase: "You're either with us or against us." Think Orwell's 'Animal Farm'.

Group think is a significant problem in many organisations and communities as it inhibits development potential, demotivates talent and creates an oppressive and rigid monoculture. The paradox is that group-think appears to the participants as 'strength' and growth. But evidence reveals that the opposite is the case and that it is a clear indicator of a culture of incompetence and a forewarning  ofdecline. No matter how self-detrimental the group think is, it is never perceived as such by the group-thinkers. It basically arises from a pack-mentality and, in business, employees prioritising their position and career advancement by never contradicting management.

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Mike..

These are the things i was trying to poke a in the Ostrich thread..that i put up..

That is why..i have stated that many times we agree more than ..not..

I think there is a severe comounication ..glitch.. in the way we both..hear or do not hear each other..

I hope..

. You can grasp what i am trying to tell you...

The megga detail..that you go into..

N..use..is far beyound me scolastic learning..

I try to speak n

..more importantly type..on this ting..as briefly as posible..

As to not loose me train of thought..

In simple words me body has no chance to keep up with me brain..

It is a nurilogical thing..

Typing this thing.. takes me..a very long time..

Longer to try to find n fix misstakes..

Pain in the butt

Brevity..may not feed you ..ALL.. the info you want..or posibly need..

Meat space...is very differnt..

quote:

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Originally posted by OldNavyGuy

Which comes back around to the question of opinion vs. fact...often times, opinions and hearsay are argued as fact, with no evidence to support them.

“You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

- Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Not trying to change the subject.

The question is..

I just listened to a report..(independant reporter)

The gist was that thos baloons can cary..

An E.M.P. weapon..

Personaly i do not know if it can or can not.

But i suspect that it probly could..

Example..

One group says n thinks that it can n could be a real threat..

Second group..day that that is fear mongering...n..would never happen..

Never mind the 3rd..or 4th  groups.. or more that may mave completly differnt..views..on it..

They probly not come to an agreement with each other..

Is that kinda what you are saying?

I know you like facts.. so step one is to see if the EMP could be delivered in that manmer ?

I don't remember which presidential election it was, but the republican candidate won. I was at a gathering and heard one person exclaim "I cannot believe that X won, I don't know a single person who voted for him." This person was living in an echo chamber. If you do not understand how anyone can hold a different view than your group, you really need to expand your circle.

I see this a lot with gun arguments. Both sides shout, and neither side listens.

Might be conflating the terms belief and fact?

Beliefs are typically referred to as personal subjective opinions or feelings about... for example best banjo, smartest dog, what should happen as apt punishment for all killing... these are not facts that are true/false... just what a person feels, or wants to happen. Can give personal justification of why of subjective opinion, why feel that way.

Facts, and objective opinions, probabilities/projections based on facts, supported by objective evidence... are not how you personally feel. These can be falsified/verified. What believe will happen to all people who kill, or that it will rain tomorrow; though future is still stated objective probability based on evidence, facts, data; not simply what want to happen or how one feels. (weather don't care how feel or want)

The ability to discriminate those two, has nothing to do with which side (those in favor of feeding killers to snakes are no better at it than those who oppose) 

Back to the OP  echo chambers; the warning is mostly about the former, only seeking confirmation bias of what feel or want. But echo chambers can affect latter, if surrounded by misinformation, or in ignoring evidence (verifying or refuting)... often tied more to the former subjective beliefs. 

quote:

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Originally posted by STUD

quote:

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Originally posted by quartertoner

aka group think.

I'm sure we've all inadvertently found ourselves in spaces where we hear the same narrow world view repeated and reinforced by the people who frequent that space. Rather than accept analysis, dissent and alternative world views as healthy and normal the inhabitants demonise and ostracise any expression of views that challenge their own. It can be summarised by the phrase: "You're either with us or against us." Think Orwell's 'Animal Farm'.

Group think is a significant problem in many organisations and communities as it inhibits development potential, demotivates talent and creates an oppressive and rigid monoculture. The paradox is that group-think appears to the participants as 'strength' and growth. But evidence reveals that the opposite is the case and that it is a clear indicator of a culture of incompetence and a forewarning  ofdecline. No matter how self-detrimental the group think is, it is never perceived as such by the group-thinkers. It basically arises from a pack-mentality and, in business, employees prioritising their position and career advancement by never contradicting management.

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I think there is a severe comounication ..glitch..

 

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All the more reason to be specific about the subject of the threads you start. Be up front about what you are referring to and why. It has nothing to do with brevity or writing 'style'.

Communication requires clarity and trust.

And that easy to achieve standard of clarity and trust would only be problematic for someone seeking to bypass the house rules excluding political topics.

Occasionally we can all be vague and make allusion we mistakenly think others will pick up on. But a habitual pattern of vagueness and allusion (especially when any 'sources' included are absolutely consistent in their origin and political nature) disrespects others and is an abuse of trust.

It's perfectly reasonable for other people who frequent that space to sensibly question what is going on.

Sigh..
You ain't hearing me..
That is not to say you are not listening..or trying to..

Mebee we..you n me..
Can..
Only see from our own points of view..
At annah rate..
You have a good day..

And please don’t post any more personalised threads to 'target' individual members.

That would be another fairly basic step toward improving communication.

You have yourself a good day too.

Fine..
Far as i am concerned..i have offered an olive branch..

I will try to honor yer request..

quote:

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Originally posted by STUD

I know you like facts.. so step one is to see if the EMP could be delivered in that manmer ?

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I posted in the "balloon" thread that the Japanese used incendiary "balloon bombs" during WW 2.

One killed 6 people, 5 of them children, in Oregon on May 5th, 1945.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/1945-japanese-balloon-bomb-killed-six-americansfive-them-children-oregon-180972259/

EMP pulses can be generated following a nuclear explosion...

https://remm.hhs.gov/EMP.htm

So given the above..in theory, a balloon could drop a nuclear weapon, and detonate it at an altitude that would create a significant EMP pulse.

Then balloons of unknowen origen..would or could be a real..threat..

OldNavyGuy Here is a picture of my opinion of your face as you trek along on your truth journey.  My opinion is safe here.

quote:

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Originally posted by Helix

OldNavyGuy Here is a picture of my opinion of your face as you trek along on your truth journey.  My opinion is safe here.

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Looks like the voices in your head are working overtime...nice try though.

Positive message anywhere?

An echo chamber is...an echo chamber...an echo chamber...an echo chamber...an echo chamber.