I'm working on an old banjo that has unusual shoes. The pot is 3 1/3" deep, the shoes are 2 1/4" long, and the bottoms of the shoes have hooks that grab the bottom of the all-metal (non-ferrous, looks like nickel over brass) pot. As a result, there are no penetrations of the pot, similar to the Whyte Laydie construction. The upper part of the hooks are threaded into the side of the tension hoop. The exterior of the tension hoop has decorative, knurled "frames" between the j-hooks. The nuts for the j-hooks are fairly short and slotted.
Does anyone recognize these shoes ? Or the threaded j-hook-to-tensionhoop construction ? Tnx in advance for comments.....
Mark Ralston
Photos of the entire banjo can help. There can be makers clues in other parts of the construction.
That said, it is no doubt some of the more unusual hardware I have seen in my 50+ years of old banjo enthusiasm.
Did an original bracket wrench come with the banjo?
Looking forward to more.
Bob Smakula
No ideas as to the maker. But it is pretty clear, that must be one of a PIA to set up.
Post more pictures. Full front, peg head ect. Maybe someone will recognize the maker if more features are shown.
Hey Bob - Just got the banjo yesterday from the owner, and wanted to start off by attributing the shoes & hook construction. The owner doesn't mind if I post pictures, so I will. It's fretless, I'm guessing Minstrel era or maybe ACW, gorgeous rosewood neck, ivory inlays and small ivory finials that screw on over the j-hook nuts. It actually has an inlaid tintype of an old-timer playing the same banjo, which is pretty unique. I ordered some prehistoric Mammoth ivory from a legal source in Germany to replace a few of the missing finials. No wrench, but I'm making one out of an old file.
Sorry to tease without more photos, but it will probably be a few days before I can post pics. The owner and I are interested in getting an idea of the age of the instrument. The tintype will help, and I'm hoping the hardware will also help.
Here's a fuzzy photo of the tintype, which is about the size of a postage stamp and is inlaid into the fingerboard within an ivory frame. I'm going to see if I can't get someone to take a better-resolution photo.
Edited by - Mark Ralston on 02/04/2023 06:47:45
As for the brackets - attached is a Henry Tallmadge 1883 patent.
I really only know of one maker that used this type of bracket and it was a wood rim banjo from about 1903 so probably not relevant here.
Hey John - tnx for the input. I did look at Tallmadge's patent yesterday...... the subject shoes might be a variant on Tallmadge's design.
What is the size and pitch of the threads on the hooks and the bracket bolts?
If I'm reading my gage correctly, they are 12-24NC
I remember this banjo being sold eBay 3 months ago. The ivory finials and the tintype were the reminder. I believe there is a hangout thread concerning the banjo while it was available for bidding.
Bob Smakula
I think this is the link to the original thread for when this instrument was on eBay.
I knew that photograph looked familiar.
banjohangout.org/topic/387302
I remember this one!
quote:
Originally posted by Mark RalstonIf I'm reading my gage correctly, they are 12-24NC
12-24 would be huge. Most banjo hooks are 8-26, but we also see 8-24, 28, qnd 32.
Bob Smakula
Bob - they're pretty stout. If I read the gage correctly, they're 12-24NC. The hooks mike out to 0.166". The upper hook in the photo is a 9/64" 26 tpi hook, and the lower hook is one of the mystery hooks.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark RalstonBob - they're pretty stout. If I read the gage correctly, they're 12-24NC. The hooks mike out to 0.166". The upper hook in the photo is a 9/64" 26 tpi hook, and the lower hook is one of the mystery hooks.
.166" is a #8. #12 would be around .212" to .216". It is likely that your gauge doesn't have a 24 tpi thread for a #8 on it, but that is a thread size used for banjos in the 1800's. I have some hooks and nuts this size, pictured here. My understanding is that Vega-Fairbanks used this thread in some of their banjos.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark RalstonBob - they're pretty stout. If I read the gage correctly, they're 12-24NC. The hooks mike out to 0.166". The upper hook in the photo is a 9/64" 26 tpi hook, and the lower hook is one of the mystery hooks.
If the hook is screwed into that hole well, and is not loose, it does look like they are 12-24, but you said they mic out to .166". 9/64" is .140", a bit undersized for #8. Does the mystery hook fit well in the hole marked .218" or 7/32", so it would be too big for the #8 hole?
Edited by - rmcdow on 02/04/2023 18:21:29
Rives - the shaft mikes at 0.166" and the threaded portion of the hook mikes at 0.180"...... I'm not well-versed with thread measuring conventions. I'm hoping that the unusual hook diameter, in addition to the convention of the "J" being threaded into the tension hoop, might help to identify the maker.
Yes, this is the banjo identified as having been on eBay. It has some other unusual features, some mentioned above.... it also has a bent wooden "tone ring" (head rests on it) that is inserted into the pot, expanded to fit the pot ID using a small (5/16" wide) wedge, and then rests upon the dowel. It also appears to have the neck and dowel carved from one piece of wood. Two small metal medallions with the letter "E" are inlaid into the peghead. I will be posting more pictures.... this is an unusual banjo, I'm grateful for the permission to share images of the banjo, and we appreciate any input on maker, age, or other comments.
Fortunately, the banjo is generally in very good shape and mostly needs replacement of some missing pieces...... no original/existing wood, metal, or ivory will be altered.
Thanks all for the comments.....
Edited by - Mark Ralston on 02/05/2023 03:25:53
First, 24 TPI is 24 TPI regardless of diameter, though overall diameters will vary.
If the major diameter of the thread is 0.180, and there are 24 TPI, you have 10-24NC or 3/16-24NC. 12-24NC will measure in the neighborhood of 0.216 plus/minus 0.010.
Movement toward thread standardization in the US didn't get seriously underway until after 1900. Non-commerically-manufactured banjos, like this one, often have thread form, diameter, and pitch combinations that don't correspond to any currently available gauge.
To clarify things, in the picture where you have fit the hook into your gauge, you have placed it into the hole designating the tap drill size for 12-24UNC, a #16 drill. Fitting the hook into a hole in the left hand column determines the screw size.
quote:
Originally posted by mbanzaFirst, 24 TPI is 24 TPI regardless of diameter, though overall diameters will vary.
If the major diameter of the thread is 0.180, and there are 24 TPI, you have 10-24NC or 3/16-24NC. 12-24NC will measure in the neighborhood of 0.216 plus/minus 0.010.
The difference between the thread diameter (.180") and the shaft diameter (.166") would normally lead me to believe that the threads are rolled rather than cut, but it could be possible to cut them with a die that is made for that end result. However, the hook portion is also threaded. Whoever put this together and made the parts had access to some good tools for that period.
Tnx for the comments on the threading. I have a bunch of different thread gages (US, metric, Whitworth) and an assortment of taps & dies..... none of them is right-on. I'm going to check in with a machinist to see if I can get an accurate reading.
Bob Smakula - here's a link to some more photos of the subject banjo on Google Drive. I found an antique photo conservator to help with the mounting method for the tintype and he asked for more photos, too.
drive.google.com/drive/folders...hare_link
