Confer with me off forum

I haven't done one myself (yet), but my carver banjo has a 3/8" thick single ply rim.

He shows the process here: youtube.com/watch?v=jD2pdMlIPEo

I think the advantages to multi-ply are thickness (easier to bend thinner plies) and stability.

I like the one ply with feather or “scarf” joint

Here is an archived thread. There was recently another thread on this as well.

https://www.banjohangout.org/archive/194233

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Originally posted by Helix

I like the one ply with feather or “scarf” joint

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That is what I'm planning.  I tested my steam generator on saturday.  Its a 20 quart soup pot with a salad bowl for the lid.  I soldered a fitting to the salad bowl to exhaust the steam.  The side burner on my gas grill produces enough BTU's/hr to make quite a lot of steam for hours.  I plan to soak the wood for several days in water with a surfactant added (probably ammonia) to aid in opening up the pores.  I'll probably use 1x6 lumber to build the steam box.  Making the forms to bend around will take a little bit of work but that seems pretty straightforward and easy enough.

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Originally posted by A Drum On A Stick

I haven't done one myself (yet), but my carver banjo has a 3/8" thick single ply rim.

He shows the process here: youtube.com/watch?v=jD2pdMlIPEo

I think the advantages to multi-ply are thickness (easier to bend thinner plies) and stability.

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Thanks.  I watched that video and quite a few others before deciding to try it. 

I studied composites (fiberglass, Kevlar, carbon fiber, etc) years ago in engineering school.  Stability AND strength comes from orienting the material strength in at least two directions.  Wood is strongest in the long direction.  The plies in plywood (a simple composite) are oriented at 90 degrees in order to provide strength and stability in both directions. 

Anyhow, I'm not disagreeing, just trying to learn about it.  But, I just don't understand how cutting three thin strips from the same board and then gluing them back together increases stability. A plywood rim with the wood grain in different plies oriented at 90 degrees is a different situation that would be inherently more stable.  By using strips from the same board you end up with what you started with except its held together with sound deadening adhesive.  I could understand an argument that laminations reduce the tendency to crack.

There is a definite advantage to more than one ply.  The way wood laminations work is that they reinforce each other to create a stable part. You have to use glue that doesn't "creep"—dedicated laminating glue.

Some people say you need at least three plies, but I have made successful hoops with two  Here are some pictures of rim hoops in the thickness you are thinking about —2-ply ones and a 3-ply one. These are so thin you hardly need to steam the wood  You could make the layers with a guitar bending-iron.

I have made a lot of  steam bent laminated rims, and if you are making your own jigs and steam chamber, my advice is that 3/8" - 5/16" is way too thick for one ply and you will be unhappy.
The species of maple, the grain direction and straightness thereof, and the moisture content are all important.

Good luck.

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

There is a definite advantage to more than one ply.  The way wood laminations work is that they reinforce each other to create a stable part. You have to use glue that doesn't "creep"—dedicated laminating glue.

Some people say you need at least three plies, but I have made successful hoops with two  Here are some pictures of rim hoops in the thickness you are thinking about —2-ply ones and a 3-ply one. These are so thin you hardly need to steam the wood  You could make the layers with a guitar bending-iron.

I have made a lot of  steam bent laminated rims, and if you are making your own jigs and steam chamber, my advice is that 3/8" - 5/16" is way too thick for one ply and you will be unhappy.
The species of maple, the grain direction and straightness thereof, and the moisture content are all important.

Good luck.

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I'm familiar with creep.  What non-creepy glue available in fairly small quantities would you suggest?  

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Originally posted by 98v70dad

 

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I'm familiar with creep.  What non-creepy glue available in fairly small quantities would you suggest?  

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The best one is Ultra Cat, but you have to buy a 5# bucket of the powder.  Good old Weldwood urea resin glue, https://www.dap.com/products-projects/product-categories/adhesives/glues-epoxies/plastic-resin-glue/   has been around forever, recommended for wood laminations, and is available at many hardware stores in smaller amounts (I think Ace Hardware stores carry it), but you have to make sure it hasn't been sitting on the shelf for several years.  All of those urea glues have a finite shelf life.

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Originally posted by 98v70dad

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I'm familiar with creep.  What non-creepy glue available in fairly small quantities would you suggest?  

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My understanding is hide glue doesn't creep and is fairly easy to find in small qtys.

Might be a learning curve though.

98v70dad Your logic regarding too much adhesive between laminations is quite correct.
The thickness you are setting as your goal can be rolled into a banjo rim.
Steam is your friend and your box design is adequate and relevant.
Using steam depends on a form close to the steam box and a quick hand, like "you got five seconds," before it cools down and might need reheating.
A friend of mine has a pressurized box that gets him 290 degrees. That moves molecules and lets them stay there.

I do rim change outs. I have a stack of import rims, laminated rims and "block rims." Layups are not stable, Buildups can change a flat tire.

Lammies or Laminated rims warp, ovalize, rack and pushup. Production rims have specs , risk management and butt joints
We see threads here frequently about how to fix a delaminated production rim by not crushing with clamps.
All these "flaws" are represented in various factory output.

The laminated rims made by people like Ken Levan are superior because of their attention to personal detail. A 5 lbs. bucket? I know a supplier who lets his 3-plys cure in a pile for about another 6 months. That's for production and warranty.

Us "others" have more options.

What Scott Zimmerman wrote 13 years ago about his personal stance and philosophy is definitely industry oriented. Ask him about the "Thin Skirt" Massacree. How's that going these days?

Let's say worrying too much about form can get one into a cul de sac without content.
Whereas a quest that is all content needs no form, the pieces fall together and hold and quality tone and volume emerge as if by a lark.

Repeating that is different for a factory. A single builder has technique shown here on the hangout that sometimes has been adopted and "patented."

A multiply rim takes forethought. What is the goal? The outside diameter meets the head and tension hoop. The inside lams can't all be the same thickness because you are meeting the inside diameter with a certain number of plies.
That's why people go for drum shell and other veneers with even more glue slathered!

A master luthier in my town uses time and weights and string to bend his guitar sides, he's not stretching molecules, he's bending nicely.

A 3" pipe nipple can be heated with various means and used without steam if cautious.

Otherwise, I would enjoy seeing your original premise come to play some music.
You definitely have enough "steam."
I enjoy encouraging other people, it's trending.

Just curious Larry because you are giving a lot of advice. Have you actually made any 1,2 or 3 ply rims? If so, what are your favorite? Some photos would be nice.

Paul

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Originally posted by Fathand

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Originally posted by 98v70dad

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I'm familiar with creep.  What non-creepy glue available in fairly small quantities would you suggest?  

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My understanding is hide glue doesn't creep and is fairly easy to find in small qtys.

Might be a learning curve though.

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There are two problems with hide glue, the first being that the stuff in the plastic bottle called "hide glue" is not the same as the real traditional hot glue pot stuff, so which one?

The second, and actual thing to worry about is that hide glue sticks fast, which is a problem when you are taking a hot wooden slat out of a steam chamber wearing gloves, and you have to very quickly spread glue on it, bend it into a form and clamp it with cauls before the glue sticks and makes it impossible to shift.

Titebond is even worse and sticks faster—a friend of mine refers to it as "panic titebond".

Dedicated laminating glue, on the other hand is intended for this use, and has a long—20 min or more working time and you can slide things around while you are clamping it—huge  advantage.

Since there is a glue specifically intended for wood laminations, why not use that for wood laminations?

I have actually helped make a wooden rim. I had a friend now deceased by the name of Foster Murray, that made banjos. Foster obtained most of the late Kyle Creeds banjo parts and tools from Kyles family around 1983.
This is the way Foster bent rims. He started out by sawing the maple boards into strips into 1/2 inch thick strips and a little over the width of the banjo rim he was making. He then ran these through a planer and planed them to 5/16 of an inch. I forget the length but I do remember they were tapered on one end. He had a long steel rectangular, trough like, home made container he would put water in and place the wood strips in. He would set this container on a big wood stove that he heated his home with and heat them up. Foster had a couple of pieces of steel pipe a little less than the ID of a banjo rim. After heated these all day they were ready to bend. He started out by removing one strip at a time and wrapping it around this steel pipe. He would then cut the opposite end taper to fit and clamp. He then added another strip alternating the lap joint to the steel pipe and clamp it on top of the first strip the same way and then do the last one. It was then set up to dry on a rack beside the stove.
After drying the clamps were removed and the strips were carefully fitted where the joints fit well and glued until all three were glued. Again it was set on the drying rack until the glue set. Afterwards the glued rim was placed on a Delta wood lathe and the inside smoothed to proper inside ID. The rim was then remounted on the lathe and the outside cut and smoothed to proper OD measurement and width. I never seen him cut a rim for a heavy tone ring since he made mostly open back banjos with the hoop ring. But he had done this before. Im 69 now and when I helped him I was in my 20's so thats been many years ago. Im sure with todays technology all this wood bending methods have changed. But if someone wanted to go this method Im sure it still works. I often wonder what ever happened to the the Creed tools when Foster passed away. I never did hear.

I have bent several single-ply rims from white oak, 5/16" to 3/8" thickness just like you plan. It's best to do in on a hot day so as not to lose too much heat.

Pay close attention to the grain of the wood - you want straight as possible and no (or very minimal) runout.

Here is a video I made of my bending process: 

Steam bending single ply banjo rim from white oak

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

 

Titebond is even worse and sticks faster—a friend of mine refers to it as "panic titebond".

Dedicated laminating glue, on the other hand is intended for this use, and has a long—20 min or more working time and you can slide things around while you are clamping it—huge  advantage.

Since there is a glue specifically intended for wood laminations, why not use that for wood laminations?

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I realize it takes a certain amount of skill to use hot hide glue. I mentioned it as an option because it met the OPs criteria for available and in small quantities. Also, some like to use it because, apparently, Gibson did for pre-war banjo rims. At least one banjo supply company offers hide glue rims as an option. For myself, I have only ever glued one layer on to thicken a rim and did manage with Titebond.  Laminating glue is probably a good choice.

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Originally posted by Jonnycake White

I have bent several single-ply rims from white oak, 5/16" to 3/8" thickness just like you plan. It's best to do in on a hot day so as not to lose too much heat.

Pay close attention to the grain of the wood - you want straight as possible and no (or very minimal) runout.

Here is a video I made of my bending process: 

Steam bending single ply banjo rim from white oak

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Good point about the oak.  Oak is one of the wood species that bends the best. Others are ash and beech—most bentwood furniture is made from beech, and the backs of Windsor chairs are often made from ash.  I have often wondered why more banjo builders don't make beech rims—the original pre-war Gibson rim wood specification was "maple or beech".

Maple is harder to steam bend, particularly if it's dry.

Runout as you say, is a big problem.

I enjoy bending Cherry and Maple. Patience.

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

There is a definite advantage to more than one ply.  The way wood laminations work is that they reinforce each other to create a stable part. You have to use glue that doesn't "creep"—dedicated laminating glue.

Some people say you need at least three plies, but I have made successful hoops with two  Here are some pictures of rim hoops in the thickness you are thinking about —2-ply ones and a 3-ply one. These are so thin you hardly need to steam the wood  You could make the layers with a guitar bending-iron.

I have made a lot of  steam bent laminated rims, and if you are making your own jigs and steam chamber, my advice is that 3/8" - 5/16" is way too thick for one ply and you will be unhappy.
The species of maple, the grain direction and straightness thereof, and the moisture content are all important.

Good luck.

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What woods are these rims made from Ken?

Paul 

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Originally posted by Paulf

 

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What woods are these rims made from Ken?

Paul 

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the 2-ply ones in the top picture are: maple / walnut, maple / cherry,  and maple / maple.  The 3-ply one on the bottom is maple / cherry / maple.

The ones in the top picture were originally made as parts for an internal resonator Bacon style assembly.

I currently have 2 orders for hollow rim banjos, and the inner and outer rim shells will be made similarly to these.

these very thin ones have to be made accurately round because there is no way to true them on a lathe like you would rims of normal thickness.

We have given the young person enough information, let's see what they have to say.

It's always interesting to see what people do with the information they get on this forum.

I don't follow your post's meaning.

Let's see what the OP has to say if possible. They can get overwhelmed with options.

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

It's always interesting to see what people do with the information they get on this forum.

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Yes. They might even decide to go another way. larry, the post had stopped a day or two before and then you added your say which I am not sure why since you aren't a Mod or the OP. Seems you just like to have the last say.

I havent had much to say because I'm out of town and my computer died. Posting from my tablet is a pain. I'm not drowning in the info i just havent decided what I'm going to do. I am curious about what sort of instability we're talking about for a one ply ring. Is it warping from a flat plane or growth/shrinkage in the circumference or growth/shrinkage in width of the hoop?