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Foggy Mountain Banjo, and the banjo used on Ground Speed
Several years ago, a friend of mine, retired Ada OH police officer Dean Bahr who was then living in Salina KS, came to visit and take
a trip with me. We drove his Cadillac to Bon Aqua TN, and stayed overnight with my dear friend Ron Rigsby. The next morning we went to Mount Juliet to the home of Curtis McPeake, the eminent prewar Gibson Mastertone expert and polished professional banjo player. After visiting with Curtis for an hour or so, he asked us, "Did you ever notice that the banjo Earl played on Ground Speed is not the Granada he used on the rest of the Foggy Mountain Banjo project?"
Because Ground Speed was the first track on the vinyl disk, I had never caught that, being just dazzled by Earl's playing. Had the track followed one done on the Granada, it is possible that I might have noticed. Dean said he hadn't, either. Curtis said "I don't have any evidence or personal knowledge of it, but I swear that's a 4 (RB-4, walnut neck and resonator, chrome plated hardware, typically having a distinctly different tone from the maple and gold plated Granada)" Curtis was without doubt as expert in listening to old Mastertone banjos as anyone.
Fast forward on that same day to supper time, where Dean and I were joined at the Bell Buckle Cafe by Mike Longworth, who worked for C. F. Martin for years and retaught their craftsman the art of abalone trim on the upscale style 42 and 45 guitars. Mike had purchased an original RB-4 flat head five string banjo from Earl Scruggs. Out of the blue, with no knowledge of our prior conversation, Mike said "Let me tell you a story you've probably never heard. About 1959, I got a phone call from Earl, who told me that the Columbia Records A&R guy had called Lester and told him
they needed another instrumental for the Foggy Mountain Banjo album. Earl said he told Lester that J. N. Gower in Nashville had his banjo all apart, and he didn't have a banjo to use in the studio. Lester told him to find one, and Earl called me and asked if I still had the RB-4 he sold me. I told him I did, and he asked if he could borrow it for a few days to cut another tune for the album they were making. I said I'd bring it to him, and he said, "No, I know where you're gigging, so I'll come get it". That night Earl came in and picked up the RB-4, which he returned several days later.
After supper, Mike went with us to the home of Paul Hopkins, who had bought the RB-4 from him, and I had the pleasure of playing it for a while, then surrendered it to Paul. I then picked up Paul's D-28 and played rhythm for him for a while. Paul, his son David and I became friends, and I have made several more visits to the Hopkins home and banjo factory since that time.
This story is exactly as I have related it, and was told by the living person most directly involved, and confirmed by physical contact with the true Ground Speed banjo.
Edited by - Texasbanjo on 01/30/2023 08:26:54
Interesting story. Thanks for sharing it.
Except the recording of ground speed with the RB4 that was on foggy mountain banjo was cut about a year before the rest of the album, so the timeline doesn’t match up.
The January 23, 1959 tracks were: Crying My Heart Over You, Ground Speed, Who Knows Right from Wrong, and Iron Curtain.
According to Neil Rosenberg's discography in the Bear Family Flatt & Scruggs sets(1948-1959 and 1959-19630, Ground Speed was recorded on January 23, 1959, while the other tracks on Foggy Mountain Banjo were recorded on August 11, 1960.
Here is a story from Mike Longworth to Paul Hopkins:
"Vintage Instruments, Bell Buckle, TN 37020
May 23, 1996
To: Paul Hopkins
Subject: RB-4 #9639-9
In January of 1959 Paul Champion and I rode down the Opry with Earl Scruggs after the TV show, and spent some time there before going out to the Club to play. That night, in Paul’s presence, Earl asked me if he could borrow my banjo for a recording session. The reason is vague after all these years, but as I recall his banjo was being repaired or was giving some problem. Earl felt he didn’t have a suitable banjo for the session, and always liked mine. Needless to say, I was thrilled and agreed to let him borrow it.
My recollection was that Earl was to record on Sunday but he apparently didn’t do so until the following Friday, according to the schedule. He had my banjo for about two weeks. He called me and said the head had broken, and that he would give me either a new Rogers Three-Star, or one of three sample plastic heads he had received from an outfit on the West Coast (Remo). When I asked him what he was going to do he replied that he was going to try a plastic head, so I agreed to let him put one on my banjo. It was a milky plastic instead of painted, and lasted me for many years. I finally retired it for fear it would break. I thought it didn’t have a name on it, but when I saw it recently I noticed that the name Weather King had been rubbed off. I never noticed this because it was under the tailpiece.
There was one instrumental recorded during the period Earl had my banjo. This was "Groundspeed", on the January 29, 1959 session. Owing to the circumstances and the timing of the session, I am certain my instrument was used on this number."
Thanks guys, love these stories!
I played the Groundspeed banjo years ago. I was at a picking party Tut and Mark Taylor had at their shop. Paul Hopkins brought the RB-4. I played it for a long time. It was pretty cool. Oh yes, I picked Groundspeed on it. The next day I went to visit Earl and told him I got to play it.
Edited by - Randy Escobedo on 01/30/2023 10:15:49
So Groundspeed was recorded with a plastic head. Was the rest of Foggy Mountain Banjo, recorded with the Granada, also done with a plastic head?
quote:
Originally posted by Bronx banjoSo Groundspeed was recorded with a plastic head. Was the rest of Foggy Mountain Banjo, recorded with the Granada, also done with a plastic head?
Based on Mike Longworth's story, yes.
I’ve always thought the tone on Ground Speed was more shrill and thin than the other cuts. I just figured it was studio tweaking somehow.
Edited by - chuckv97 on 01/30/2023 11:31:49
Well, I related the story as Mike told it to me and Dean Bahr...two things are undeniable, (I retired from the Army in 1991 and moved to Oklahoma the next year, and the Bahr trip was sometime between 1995 and 1997, as near as I can figure) so at least 35 years had elapsed between Earl borrowing the RB-4 and our dinner together. Mike's memory may have played a trick on him, in one version or the other. One undeniable thing is, and the MAIN POINT of my posting, the RB-4 was the Ground Speed banjo, whether pre-Granada FMBanjo or postFBBanjo, and not the archtop Granada being advertised as the Ground Speed banjo, a 9166 FON, two piece flange 40 hole. The scheduling of the recording sessions is irrelevant to my discussion of the matter.
I wonder if Paul Champion is still with us....not a lot of us are still here, that were playing bluegrass banjo in the 60's....Mike Longworth is gone, Earl is gone, Dean Bahr is gone, no one to clarify everything.
While we're picking nits, Rosenberg dates Ground Speed recording on January 23, 1959, while Mike's letter to Paul puts it six days later. I trust my memory of the conversation with Mike like I had recorded it....I wore out several copies of the vinyl FMBanjo album, gave a couple away, and finally bought the CD version. Anything associated with Earl, his banjos, anything he recorded, was very high on my awareness scale. My mother, who played upright bass with a bow in her high school orchestra, and was staff pianist on WNAD radio (U of OK campus radio) during her three years at OU, stopped by my house one day while I was in graduate school, and FMBanjo was on the turntable, playing away. She stopped suddenly in our conversation, obviously locked onto the music, and said thoughtfully, "you know, man for man, that's much more complex than symphonic music". She had always looked down her nose at what she called "hillbilly music". She actually went to a local festival with me and had a great time.
Those are great stories Gary. In your next to last post you mentioned an archtop Granada being advertised as the banjo that Earl recorded Groundspeed on. That was rattling around in my mind, as someone at Banjothon mentioned that, and I said I was surprised to hear that, as I have read the account that both you and Paul Hopkins related. I think it is pretty safe to say that your account is right on the money!
I think it is pretty well documented and accepted that ground speed was cut with the RB4 Earl borrowed from Mike Longworth. However the recording happened before the rest of the album was recorded during the time Earls Granada was out of commission and getting a new neck by Gower. The rest of the tracks on Foggy Mountain Banjo were recorded on the Granada with the Gower mahogany neck.
Who is advertising an arch top Granada as the ground speed banjo?
For those of you who aren’t on Facebook this is what I found on Gabe Hirschfeld’s page
mandolincentral.com/rbg91161?f...sJMQGegME
mandolincentral.com/rbg91161?f...sJMQGegME
Comments by many - here are some
Edited by - chuckv97 on 01/30/2023 16:14:42
quote:
Originally posted by GaryPriceI wonder if Paul Champion is still with us....not a lot of us are still here, that were playing bluegrass banjo in the 60's....Mike Longworth is gone, Earl is gone, Dean Bahr is gone, no one to clarify everything.
Paul died on February 14, 1986. https://paulchampion.net//
Here is the link to the full letter which an excerpt was posted above.
nashvilleplatingservice.com/Lo...etter.htm
quote:
Originally posted by chuckv97For those of you who aren’t on Facebook this is what I found on Gabe Hirschfeld’s page
mandolincentral.com/rbg91161?f...sJMQGegME
mandolincentral.com/rbg91161?f...sJMQGegME
Comments by many - here are some
That is the first I have heard of this claim. I wonder how this archtop Granada was acquired from Earl. Nothing mentioned about that.
I always felt there was something different in the way that the banjo sounded on Ground Speed.
I like the single RB-4 cut, better than any of the other songs on that record. This may "sound" strange to some of you, but I've always felt that Earl's banjo never quite lived up to its full potential.
Perhaps, if Earl had never thinned the neck down, and just played it as it came from Don Reno, we might all be chasing a very different sound.
The majority of recordings of Earl's banjo, do not give a truly accurate example of how an original Granada would have sounded.
In all likelihood, the rest of Foggy Mountain Banjo (had Earl actually been able to play his own banjo at that time with the pre-Gower neck), would not have sounded the same, compared to how it really turned out.
However, it's a VERY important thing that Earl did, when he instructed Gibson NOT to change the tone ring when he had the banjo sent in for repairs. Goodness knows what Gibson would have done.
The keeping together of historical parts meant little to them, which is exactly why they did away with a lot of the original parts on Wade Mainer's banjo, when he had it "refurbished."
I just finished re-reading Mike Longworth’s article and the explanation, which Scruggs apparently confirmed, is that it was recorded with the flathead RB 4. I don’t know how or why Tony Williamson got the idea that it was an arch top Granada.
This is a much more significant difference than debating the date it was recorded. Suppose Mr. Williamson offers this banjo for sale, claiming that it is the Groundspeed banjo. It would command a vastly higher price based on misinformation. Someone needs to set the record straight.
quote:
Originally posted by Bronx banjoI just finished re-reading Mike Longworth’s article and the explanation, which Scruggs apparently confirmed, is that it was recorded with the flathead RB 4. I don’t know how or why Tony Williamson got the idea that it was an arch top Granada.
This is a much more significant difference than debating the date it was recorded. Suppose Mr. Williamson offers this banjo for sale, claiming that it is the Groundspeed banjo. It would command a vastly higher price based on misinformation. Someone needs to set the record straight.
The link posted above to the Mandolin central pages leads me to believe that the archtop Granada is for sale.
Quote from that page:
Now, the legendary “Ground Speed” banjo is looking for a new home. Please inquire for terms. Additional details, photos and copies of documents are also available for serious interested parties.
I'll try to condense this story as short as possible. The first paragraph is about Paul Hopkins, the second paragraph is on topic.
I first met Paul Hopkins by chance while I was visiting Curtis McPeake at his home/ basement office & by chance Paul just happened to be there also. Paul introduced himself, we all picked on some banjos & had a great time This was in the August of 2003.
I called Paul the following weekend we talked a good while & I asked him if he did banjo set up's & he told me that he set up a few banjer's LOL. Man, was that an understatement ! which I found out later. I asked him if he would take a look at my 1988 Granada reissue that needed some attention. He said yes, he would be glad to look at it. I left Chicago at 5 A.M. got to his house at 12:30 or so and he started tearing my Granada down right away. He found the issue as soon as he had the neck out of the banjo about 15 minutes after I arrived. But he didn't stop there , he took my banjo completely apart, cleaned every part, put it all back together & did a complete set up on my banjo including servicing my very old Keith Scruggs D tuners.
When I was fixing to head back home to Chicago around 6;00 P.M. I asked Paul how much that I owed him for his services. He quickly told me that I didn't owe him a thing, he said anybody that drives a 1000 mile round trip to get his banjo worked on don't owe him nothing. This is after Paul meeting me one time!!! I can't say enough good things about Paul & his son David and his whole family, which I have become very good friends with over the years. He has taught me everything that I have been able to absorb about banjo set up and tweeking. I can't thank him enough for that but most of all, I thank him for his kindness his friendship !
Now for the story that applies to the posted topic:
While I was there at Paul Hopkins studio that day it just so happens that Mike Longworth stopped in for a visit with Paul, not knowing that I was there. Paul introduced Mike to me & we all talked while Paul worked on my banjo. At this point Paul & Mike were very close friends, one of the subjects that I inquired about was
( of course) wanting to hear the whole story about Earl using his banjo for a recording session. Mike began telling the story how Earl Scruggs contacted him to borrow his RB-4 for a recording session that he had previously purchased from Earl because his Granada was getting worked on at the time. So I got to hear the whole story straight from Mike Longworth that day and it matches up completely with Gary Price's post. That's the way that it happened. It don't get any more verified than that, straight out of Mike's mouth. I have had the honor of playing that iconic banjo several times over the years on my many visits to Paul's home over these past years and yes, I did play Groundspeed on it.
Sorry for the long post,
Brian
I spoke yesterday at some length with Tony Williamson at Mandolin Central, who has the two piece flange, 40 hole archtop Granada with Earl's hand engraved autograph in several places on it. We didn't get into the extraction of the 9166 from Earl's effects, but Tony told me that Earl told him face to face that he had recorded Ground Speed on that banjo. I left the contact with the assurance that Tony absolutely believes that what he has is the real deal, but if Earl told him that late in life, his memory might have played tricks on him, or subconsciously he valued it more if that was the case, who knows. We'll understand it better by and by....if we care up there...I am personally more confident in the version related by a man earlier in life with no perceptible signs of memory loss, and no economic dog in the fight. Like Tony said, none of us were there in 1959.....except Mike and Earl, and they are gone.
I see Brian's Hangout handle is LouZee Picker.... I own LouZee #11, label signed by Mike, in the RB-3 configuration. I think the original bill of sale is in the case, which may have been opened two or three times since I bought it new. Like everything I own, it needs a good home.
quote:
Originally posted by GaryPriceI spoke yesterday at some length with Tony Williamson at Mandolin Central, who has the two piece flange, 40 hole archtop Granada with Earl's hand engraved autograph in several places on it. We didn't get into the extraction of the 9166 from Earl's effects, but Tony told me that Earl told him face to face that he had recorded Ground Speed on that banjo. I left the contact with the assurance that Tony absolutely believes that what he has is the real deal, but if Earl told him that late in life, his memory might have played tricks on him, or subconsciously he valued it more if that was the case, who knows. We'll understand it better by and by....if we care up there...I am personally more confident in the version related by a man earlier in life with no perceptible signs of memory loss, and no economic dog in the fight. Like Tony said, none of us were there in 1959.....except Mike and Earl, and they are gone.
Well said. I'm currently in the middle of a writing project that involves interviewing musicians who are in their 60s, with no noticeable cognitive deficits, about things that happened 40-50 years ago. There's a lot of imprecision, conflicting info, etc., that I find in their accounts. Heck, last week I was trying to remember what guitar I'd used on a recording from just 11 years ago, and I couldn't remember for sure.
Another question for all of you who know more about what Earl recorded than me. Did Earl record Groundspeed on any other albums? I guess I could go check mine and see, but since I don't have a turntable anymore, I am not sure where my albums are! If so could he have used that banjo on another cut?
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