The banjo is definitely NOT dead-----but "common courtesy" sure as Hell is .........or it's gasping its last breaths.
Irish bands have 4 string banjos--which is probably your market for reselling them since there doesn't seem to be a lot of Dixie Land going on now. However--its really hard to play up to speed on a flat picked 4 string in many of the Irish sets & it is hard on your arm--clawhammer and 3 finger bluegrass are much more forgiving. Also--4 strings are very loud so they are not that forgiving to a beginner. But you might try checking out that market ?
Best wishes,
Mary Z. Cox
Mary, I'm not so sure that clawhammer and three-finger are more forgiving for beginners. I found both to be quite unnatural, so much so that I gave up on those styles.
I suppose it depends on your background and what you're trying to play. As a guitar player (jazz and rock), flatpicking the tenor made complete sense to me, much more than clawhammer or Scruggs-style on the five string. I pretty much use my five string as a plectrum for that reason. I also play mandolin quite a bit and that helped too.
As for volume, any banjo played with any kind of pick (fingerpicks included) is loud; there's a reason why bluegrass guitarists try to find "banjo killer" guitars. But you're right: a tenor, because of its tuning, really does cut and project and I can see how that could be intimidating for some. But the four string really shouldn't be any more difficult for a beginning player than a five string.
I think the tenor and plectrum are much more versatile than they're given credit for, just as the five string can do more than oldtime and bluegrass. But outside of Irish music, the four strings (image-wise anyway) seem shackled to 1920s or New Orleans jazz, or to the imitation 1890s of Shakey's Pizza/Red Garter/Farrell's Ice Cream Parlor sounds (I'm old enough to have gone to Shakey's and Farrell's as a kid, but the Red Garter stuff was before my time).
I bought a plectrum banjo about eight years ago, which was a curious choice since I have some ability on the mandolin. I tried a couple of banjos in a shop and brought home the one I thought sounded best. They had a slim Mel Bay volume on plectrum banjo and I managed to find a copy of the Ultimate Plectrum Banjo Players Guide just as it went out of print. The latter book has a very structured method for learning how to play. The second volume has lots of tune examples with chord charts. Many of those tunes came from the minstrel tradition which I found distasteful. I started looking around for other material and didn't find much. Now that the ultimate book is gone there are even fewer resources for the new plectrum player.
Around that time I found this forum. You can tell which styles of banjo are most popular by looking at the number of posts in each section. We had an active four-string jazz section in those days. Most of those commenting played tenor banjo. Don Lewers still posted lots of good plectrum material then. I wish I learned more of his tunes. Still can I suppose. Every time Eddie Davis posted a new tenor tutorial I thought maybe I should have gotten a tenor. I love the sound of the plectrum chords and the ease of finding inversions up and down the neck. The difficulty of finding music that I liked for that instrument discouraged me and I eventually gravitated to guitar. I found it ironic that in a video of Eddie Peabody from around 1952 the announcer said that his music was mainly enjoyed by nostalgia buffs!
When researching old jazz guitarists I discovered the music of Eddie Condon. He began as a plectrum banjo player in the 1920s and took up plectrum guitar in the 30s when he said that the banjo went out of style in jazz music. The major guitar companies only made plectrum guitars for a few years during the transition. Eddie played a tenor in plectrum tuning before acquiring a plectrum guitar. I suspect his later ones were custom orders from Gibson. Eddie and the musicians he worked with continued to play New Orleans and Chicago style hot jazz well into the post WWII era.
Condon's music inspired me to try plectrum guitar. Actual plectrum instruments are extremely rare but I got a little tenor guitar and restrung it for plectrum tuning. As Condon played rhythm only you rarely hear him on his recordings. Still, finding some lead sheets I have managed to construct a few arrangements of the music that they played. I even found that plectrum tuning works for other musical styles including medieval and renaissance music.
What's the point of this long screed? I think I can sum it up by saying that plectrum tuning with it's rich voicing and ease of finding chord inversions makes it easy to create chord melodies. The problem is that there are almost no resources out there for plectrum players compared to the millions of books and videos on 6-string guitar. You have to go it alone. Because of this I think it unlikely that plectrum banjo will ever make a serious comeback. Four string banjos are a niche instrument. Plectrum banjos are a small niche within that niche.
quote:
Originally posted by Mike-DI bought a plectrum banjo about eight years ago........
Mike, If you're still wanting to pursue some plectrum chord-melody solos, here's a treasure trove of them. It's the Don Van Palta Collection which is now for sale by Banjo Hangout member, " jerryh9027 ". As you probably know, Don was better know as the "The Flying Dutchman" from his Mickey Finn days----a top notch plectrum artist who was dedicated to helping others learn the instrument. Here's the link: https://www.banjohangout.org/classifieds/search.asp?m=byposter&v=124790. I also have a blog on my webpage which has some more information about plectrum banjo learning sources Here's that link: https://www.banjohangout.org/blog/34982. Hope all this helps.
Correction to above:
That should have been " jerryh927" for those who are interested in the Don Van Palta diagrammed solos
Edited by - Omeboy on 04/25/2023 16:15:23
quote:
Originally posted by Omeboyquote:
Originally posted by Mike-DI bought a plectrum banjo about eight years ago........
Mike, If you're still wanting to pursue some plectrum chord-melody solos, here's a treasure trove of them. It's the Don Van Palta Collection which is now for sale by Banjo Hangout member, " jerryh9027 ". As you probably know, Don was better know as the "The Flying Dutchman" from his Mickey Finn days----a top notch plectrum artist who was dedicated to helping others learn the instrument. Here's the link: https://www.banjohangout.org/classifieds/search.asp?m=byposter&v=124790. I also have a blog on my webpage which has some more information about plectrum banjo learning sources Here's that link: https://www.banjohangout.org/blog/34982. Hope all this helps.
Thanks Omeboy! Lots of good tunes in those Don Van Palta books. I also snagged a copy of the McNeil book. I remember seeing that before since there are some passages in the Origin of the Banjo section that I disagree with. On the other hand the article you quote in your blog post on the plectrum and tenor banjo history is excellent. Good stuff!
Edited by - Mike-D on 04/25/2023 17:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by Mike-D
Condon's music inspired me to try plectrum guitar. Actual plectrum instruments are extremely rare but I got a little tenor guitar and restrung it for plectrum tuning. As Condon played rhythm only you rarely hear him on his recordings. Still, finding some lead sheets I have managed to construct a few arrangements of the music that they played. I even found that plectrum tuning works for other musical styles including medieval and renaissance music.
What's the point of this long screed? I think I can sum it up by saying that plectrum tuning with it's rich voicing and ease of finding chord inversions makes it easy to create chord melodies. The problem is that there are almost no resources out there for plectrum players compared to the millions of books and videos on 6-string guitar. You have to go it alone. Because of this I think it unlikely that plectrum banjo will ever make a serious comeback. Four string banjos are a niche instrument. Plectrum banjos are a small niche within that niche.
I agree with you. The Plectrum tuning is very versatile. I write books for them, mainly classical and world music. And I make recordings. Here is my playlist.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDcJRi8rTK0Hl2hxujWQ_hgI5CsEgTSo8
quote:
Originally posted by Ondrejquote:
Originally posted by Mike-D
Condon's music inspired me to try plectrum guitar. Actual plectrum instruments are extremely rare but I got a little tenor guitar and restrung it for plectrum tuning. As Condon played rhythm only you rarely hear him on his recordings. Still, finding some lead sheets I have managed to construct a few arrangements of the music that they played. I even found that plectrum tuning works for other musical styles including medieval and renaissance music.
What's the point of this long screed? I think I can sum it up by saying that plectrum tuning with it's rich voicing and ease of finding chord inversions makes it easy to create chord melodies. The problem is that there are almost no resources out there for plectrum players compared to the millions of books and videos on 6-string guitar. You have to go it alone. Because of this I think it unlikely that plectrum banjo will ever make a serious comeback. Four string banjos are a niche instrument. Plectrum banjos are a small niche within that niche.I agree with you. The Plectrum tuning is very versatile. I write books for them, mainly classical and world music. And I make recordings. Here is my playlist.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDcJRi8rTK0Hl2hxujWQ_hgI5CsEgTSo8
Beautiful music, Ondrej! The plectrum still has so much potential.
Hi, I know I rarely write, but stumbled across this thread and wanted to offer my two cents. After some decades of supporting myself as a plectrum banjoist, I can vouch that for the past number of years I've felt my instrument to be quite "in fashion" (pandemic notwithstanding) Banjoists can work a lot -- at least in the active NYC region. I also feel it's not unusual for players to use contemporary/other influences -- something I've been doing for years, but I know I'm not unique in that regard. Yes, most pro 4-string banjoists work in hot jazz/trad jazz bands, but I am far from the only one who enjoys blurring the lines in my bands. I appreciate that local gigging will vary quite a bit depending on where one lives, and the 4-string banjo is certainly not remotely close to the popularity it enjoyed during its 1920s heyday -- when guitarists had to switch to banjo if they wanted to work -- but I can also vouch that it's not going anywhere anytime soon. It a part of some active musical niches out there. Also, for whatever its worth, my audiences range widely in age, and so do my banjo students. So take heart!
quote:
Originally posted by jan dupreequote:
Originally posted by jackryansullivanquote:
Originally posted by jan dupreequote:
Originally posted by jackryansullivanquote:
Originally posted by jan dupreequote:
Originally posted by jackryansullivanquote:
Originally posted by jan dupreequote:
Originally posted by chris_coppitSeeing how Clifton Hicks has re-kindled the interest in old-time banjo into a whole new generation of banjo lovers (myself included), I think it has endured and is perhaps returning with a slight uptick in recent times.
It'll be very difficult for it to overcome the hillbilly stereotype, though, which I think is what is keeping it from the mainstream.
I doubt we'll ever see anything like its glory days back during the minstrel era, but it will never truly disappear. The banjo is somewhat synonymous with American culture, which is pretty much here to stay.The 4 string was just a victim to changing styles and tastes in Music, but the 5 string until recently, somehow got all the negative stereotypes, and comic roles handed to it. But this has changed in recent years, and the generation that was exposed to the negative portrayals is being replaced with the next generation that not only did not witness any of it, but is hearing modern music and styles being played on it. The 5 string has somehow survived it all, but must keep moving forward, and appeal to the under 30 crowd which dictates almost everything in the Music Industry. The 4 string on the other hand will probably never be more than a novelty instrument, relegated to TV commercials, Bourbon Street, and St. Patricks Day Pub Celebrations.
If you think that the 5 string is not a novelty, you're just kidding yourself. It's still the banjo that was featured on Deliverance and is still the banjo that is associated with sodomy in the rural South.
By the way, Deliverance was filmed in and about my hometown in SC right on the state line between SC and GA. The guy who mimed on the banjo works at a local Waffle House and has served me hasbrowns many times.
But, going back to the novelty of the instrument, the portrayal of the 5 string banjo in movies and in TV is pretty accurate in terms of the demographic of those who play it and enjoy it.
...and yes in addition to plectrum and tenor, I also play 5 string banjo, and did before playing plectrum and tenor.
You have been victimized by Hollywood. #1 The 5 string is not native to SC or Georgia, and very few 5 string Bluegrass Bands are from S.C or Georgia compared to other States, even Northern States. The 4 string has more connections to S.C. and Georgia than the 5 string. Just the fact you are basing your assumptions on the popularity and future of the banjo from what you saw on a 50 year old Hollywood Fiction movie, shows you are out of touch with not only History and culture, but also what is going on in the modern Music World. #2 Bella Fleck, Tony Trischka, Bill Kieth, and many Modern Bluegrass bands are from Northern States, along with many European Bluegrass bands that are not even from the U.S. How bout this Group are they from Georgia? https://youtu.be/EvFJvwOYhjY
You have been victimized by fantasy/pretend land.
Jesus. Do you live on Earth?
Georgia Jazz Band with 4 string banjo 1922. (1) Early Jazz 1920s: Paul Whiteman - Georgia, 1922 - YouTube
Outer space cadet!
Bluegrass and the 5 string banjo has never been a part of the Music Scene in the extreme Southeastern States. Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas has never up until the last 30 years or so, embraced Bluegrass Music or OT. It's Country, Folk, Blues and Rockabilly, that has been the only Music on the radar of these States up until the 1980's, along with the rest of the Country that accepted Bluegrass. I was born in Florida 71 years ago, with family from Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi, I never even heard the name Bluegrass until I was in College, and everybody I grew up with that also had family from those States never heard of it either.
Nonsense! The banjo has been a part of the Deep South music scene for over 200 years. It was carried there, with the Bible and the fiddle, by the earliest Anglophone pioneers (Black and White alike).
Got my tenor out its case for the first time in a long time. Never played it much. Discovered that I had
strung it GDAE. Restrung it for CGDA. Have a Creole fakebook and a Jazz fakebook. Looking for post-1920s sheet music for jazzy tunes.
I play some Irish on fiddle.
Why play a popular instrument? That means you have a lot of competition.
Ha!!
Ain't no competition if you don't compete but I get your meaning. Banjos are unkillable so no worries...Jack
Edited by - Jack Baker on 05/18/2023 12:09:02
quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Heritagequote:
Originally posted by jan dupreequote:
Originally posted by jackryansullivanquote:
Originally posted by jan dupreequote:
Originally posted by jackryansullivanquote:
Originally posted by jan dupreequote:
Originally posted by jackryansullivanquote:
Originally posted by jan dupreequote:
Originally posted by chris_coppitSeeing how Clifton Hicks has re-kindled the interest in old-time banjo into a whole new generation of banjo lovers (myself included), I think it has endured and is perhaps returning with a slight uptick in recent times.
It'll be very difficult for it to overcome the hillbilly stereotype, though, which I think is what is keeping it from the mainstream.
I doubt we'll ever see anything like its glory days back during the minstrel era, but it will never truly disappear. The banjo is somewhat synonymous with American culture, which is pretty much here to stay.The 4 string was just a victim to changing styles and tastes in Music, but the 5 string until recently, somehow got all the negative stereotypes, and comic roles handed to it. But this has changed in recent years, and the generation that was exposed to the negative portrayals is being replaced with the next generation that not only did not witness any of it, but is hearing modern music and styles being played on it. The 5 string has somehow survived it all, but must keep moving forward, and appeal to the under 30 crowd which dictates almost everything in the Music Industry. The 4 string on the other hand will probably never be more than a novelty instrument, relegated to TV commercials, Bourbon Street, and St. Patricks Day Pub Celebrations.
If you think that the 5 string is not a novelty, you're just kidding yourself. It's still the banjo that was featured on Deliverance and is still the banjo that is associated with sodomy in the rural South.
By the way, Deliverance was filmed in and about my hometown in SC right on the state line between SC and GA. The guy who mimed on the banjo works at a local Waffle House and has served me hasbrowns many times.
But, going back to the novelty of the instrument, the portrayal of the 5 string banjo in movies and in TV is pretty accurate in terms of the demographic of those who play it and enjoy it.
...and yes in addition to plectrum and tenor, I also play 5 string banjo, and did before playing plectrum and tenor.
You have been victimized by Hollywood. #1 The 5 string is not native to SC or Georgia, and very few 5 string Bluegrass Bands are from S.C or Georgia compared to other States, even Northern States. The 4 string has more connections to S.C. and Georgia than the 5 string. Just the fact you are basing your assumptions on the popularity and future of the banjo from what you saw on a 50 year old Hollywood Fiction movie, shows you are out of touch with not only History and culture, but also what is going on in the modern Music World. #2 Bella Fleck, Tony Trischka, Bill Kieth, and many Modern Bluegrass bands are from Northern States, along with many European Bluegrass bands that are not even from the U.S. How bout this Group are they from Georgia? https://youtu.be/EvFJvwOYhjY
You have been victimized by fantasy/pretend land.
Jesus. Do you live on Earth?
Georgia Jazz Band with 4 string banjo 1922. (1) Early Jazz 1920s: Paul Whiteman - Georgia, 1922 - YouTube
Outer space cadet!
Bluegrass and the 5 string banjo has never been a part of the Music Scene in the extreme Southeastern States. Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas has never up until the last 30 years or so, embraced Bluegrass Music or OT. It's Country, Folk, Blues and Rockabilly, that has been the only Music on the radar of these States up until the 1980's, along with the rest of the Country that accepted Bluegrass. I was born in Florida 71 years ago, with family from Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi, I never even heard the name Bluegrass until I was in College, and everybody I grew up with that also had family from those States never heard of it either.
Nonsense! The banjo has been a part of the Deep South music scene for over 200 years. It was carried there, with the Bible and the fiddle, by the earliest Anglophone pioneers (Black and White alike).
Apples to oranges. Re-read the original post. Yours is moot point.
I’d like to point out that my inflammatory post has nearly 12,000 reads. Sometimes you need to stir the pot for people to smell the sauce.
quote:
Originally posted by cnsayerHi, I know I rarely write, but stumbled across this thread and wanted to offer my two cents. After some decades of supporting myself as a plectrum banjoist, I can vouch that for the past number of years I've felt my instrument to be quite "in fashion" (pandemic notwithstanding) Banjoists can work a lot -- at least in the active NYC region. I also feel it's not unusual for players to use contemporary/other influences -- something I've been doing for years, but I know I'm not unique in that regard. Yes, most pro 4-string banjoists work in hot jazz/trad jazz bands, but I am far from the only one who enjoys blurring the lines in my bands. I appreciate that local gigging will vary quite a bit depending on where one lives, and the 4-string banjo is certainly not remotely close to the popularity it enjoyed during its 1920s heyday -- when guitarists had to switch to banjo if they wanted to work -- but I can also vouch that it's not going anywhere anytime soon. It a part of some active musical niches out there. Also, for whatever its worth, my audiences range widely in age, and so do my banjo students. So take heart!
Exactly. A niche. Niches aren't real when it comes to actual popularity or making a future. The 4 string banjo should be made to be more than a novelty.
I think the deep association with Cracker Jack music, and of course that ridiculous 'Contemporary 4 String Banjo' group on Facebook has done nothing but hurt the banjo. It takes a washed up fossil to use the word 'Contemporary' and think doing so will attract the younger generations.
Im lucky to come from the school and lineage of Perry Bechtel, and I have first hand accounts as to what he thought of the whole thing.
I'm turning 34 next month, I'm a film composer in Los Angeles and doing my first major motion picture as principal composer, guess what? The entire score is being LED by my plectrum banjos. It's orchestral and pop style scoring, and I've found a new home for this wonderful instrument that gets cast aside while 5 string bluegrass banjo gives it a bad rap for being a 'hillbilly' instrument. I can say that because I'm from SC in the town Deliverance was filmed and also play 5 string banjo.
I'll be at AllFrets in August, and I hope we all can have a discussion together as to how we can bring this instrument back from extinction. I don't want to cause a rift between what few of us are left, but the current guard are doing a piss poor job of what the previous guard did back in the 1960's-1970's when the banjo was back in town.
Let's DO BETTER!
I really mean it.
Interesting thread, slightly confusing at times but interesting. For what it's worth I had 10 minutes and a few thoughts. The tenor and plectrum both really do have a place and like other less mainstream instruments I play (theatre organ I'm thinking of in particular at this point, they're even more likely to fall into endangered territory if they drift further from popularity as they're big and built-in, the pipe organs anyway) there is a kind of typical response - at least from people who aren't only into one kind of music to the exclusion of all others. That's the 'that's cool, actually I quite like that' and then never think about it again.
I was talking to a bloke not long ago whose line of work is to compose, compile and occasionally play background music for various things. He had all the right ideas to my mind for nailing the types of sounds, but for banjos for example he was playing a 5 string himself and mixing the results in with sampled tenor type (keyboard) chords and various effects and other samples. Overall it worked well actually, but it was never going to be feasible to employ a couple of banjo players to get the effects. Not at that scale (TV documentaries and things).
If it were for live performance it'd need an audience. There are still here (England, south of) small jazz bands with tenor and plectrum banjos in the 'trad jazz' style and of course Irish tenor is a thing. Whilst not many people seem to actively dislike them, they are hardly being headhunted for record deals either.
The desire to persist needs to be there, to have that you need to be exposed to the (in this case music) to want to be able to do it. The lack of an audience might not be permanent, and whilst it's possible that things like modern access to communications can detract from concentrating on one thing it maybe can also help to keep it alive by maintaining a presence.
There is also a trap I fall into, not just on banjo, of playing what I want to be playing, not necessarily what people might want to hear. There can also be odd ideas from musicians, I've never had lessons on banjo but I remember my organ teacher talking about playing modern (as in 70s, which to me is not modern as I finished 1979 at just under 3 months old) music to keep things fresh. My own thoughts, and I'm open to being proven completely wrong of course, were -might as well try to play Rammstein [was a while ago] for all that'll work- it's the same contemporary problem, it crops up at work with designs and the old phrase "nothing ages like contemporary" in reference to architecture.
The fitting in of banjos where appropriate in anything which is going to be popular, well viewed and so-on is an excellent idea and the more popular the better. It's things like that which seem to rely on the right people at the right time getting that kind of role that can make a difference. Personally I think maybe the current guard are up against some different forces than the previous revival, and I am grateful for all content and output that's around as it is all good for leaning from in various ways. I know trying to push the banjo onto people kind of won't work. I'm hardly doing anything to help promote it other than playing for my own entertainment. I can't really imagine a 4 string Earl Scruggs equivalent turning up anytime soon, maybe a few successful film scores could be the key.
