My question to the OP is...
If it's a "problem"...what are you doing about it?
Musical genres and instruments come and go in popular culture...i.e. 12-string guitars and folk music.
So...what?
You were talking about "annoyance" in another thread...it seems that's all you're accomplishing here.
You post a statement, then when you don't get the answers you want, you rail against the poster.
Follow "Wheaton's Law"...it'll be fine.
Edited by - OldNavyGuy on 03/05/2023 16:00:48
Charlie Poole revived the banjo
RCA knew better and hired them
What I see is young people in AI and other sciences reconnecting with wooden instruments and silver strings, the gold is all heart
And we’re going to outer space with weightless 14 pounders
The Renaissance here in electronic form will do damage to the darkness
She only dies if we don’t play
This music kills death itself
Lutes are dead to me... yet there is still a market for them.
You can still find a pretty decent ballalica out there but you rarely see those in the US.
Banjo was used in music or Mento music.
Tenor banjo was originally used in tango music, it still might be.
And then there was dexy's Midnight Runners who used both a trombone and a banjo. What could be better than that?
If you play a violin or a viola you can play a mandolin or a tenor banjo and tenor guitar... if those are tuned in 5ths.
Chicago tuning is the same as a baritone ukulele tuning is the same as soprano/tenor/concert sized ukulele tuning without the re-entrant G.
By the way the correct term I think would be tenor banjo and not "4 string banjo" but only if it's tuned in fifths.
Edited by - geoB on 03/07/2023 05:35:47
quote:
Originally posted by geoBLutes are dead to me... yet there is still a market for them.
You can still find a pretty decent ballalica out there but you rarely see those in the US.
Banjo was used in music or Mento music.Tenor banjo was originally used in tango music, it still might be.
And then there was dexy's Midnight Runners who used both a trombone and a banjo. What could be better than that?
If you play a violin or a viola you can play a mandolin or a tenor banjo and tenor guitar... if those are tuned in 5ths.
Chicago tuning is the same as a baritone ukulele tuning is the same as soprano/tenor/concert sized ukulele tuning without the re-entrant G.
By the way the correct term I think would be tenor banjo and not "4 string banjo" but only if it's tuned in fifths.
In your attempt to correct me, you've shown your ignorance to the instruments in question.
4 string banjo also includes plectrum banjo, which is most certainly NOT a tenor banjo.
Gotta do some research on the topic at hand before offering advice next time.
quote:
Originally posted by OldNavyGuyMy question to the OP is...
If it's a "problem"...what are you doing about it?Musical genres and instruments come and go in popular culture...i.e. 12-string guitars and folk music.
So...what?
You were talking about "annoyance" in another thread...it seems that's all you're accomplishing here.
You post a statement, then when you don't get the answers you want, you rail against the poster.
Follow "Wheaton's Law"...it'll be fine.
What am I doing about it? Bring it up, of course, before it completely dies with the people that play it.
Im only 33, and good Lord willing I'll get old, and the 4 string banjo is lucky that there are a few in my generation and younger actually play it, let alone collect and purchase them.
Regarding my annoyance, feel free to never comment on another post of mine again, and you'll never have to be annoyed by me again, it's so crazy, it just might work!
quote:
Originally posted by NePlusUltraNo6quote:
Originally posted by geoBLutes are dead to me... yet there is still a market for them.
You can still find a pretty decent ballalica out there but you rarely see those in the US.
Banjo was used in music or Mento music.Tenor banjo was originally used in tango music, it still might be.
And then there was dexy's Midnight Runners who used both a trombone and a banjo. What could be better than that?
If you play a violin or a viola you can play a mandolin or a tenor banjo and tenor guitar... if those are tuned in 5ths.
Chicago tuning is the same as a baritone ukulele tuning is the same as soprano/tenor/concert sized ukulele tuning without the re-entrant G.
By the way the correct term I think would be tenor banjo and not "4 string banjo" but only if it's tuned in fifths.In your attempt to correct me, you've shown your ignorance to the instruments in question.
4 string banjo also includes plectrum banjo, which is most certainly NOT a tenor banjo.
Gotta do some research on the topic at hand before offering advice next time.
I wasn't offering any advice. You were saying that banjo has met its demise and I think you're wrong.
Just a quick look at the prices going for quality banjos speaks volumes.
Edited by - geoB on 03/07/2023 20:58:28
quote:
Originally posted by geoBI wasn't offering any advice. You were saying that banjo has met its demise and I think you're wrong.
Just a quick look at the prices going for quality banjos speaks volumes.
Prices are at an all time LOW. You do realize that, right?
quote:
Originally posted by NePlusUltraNo6quote:
Originally posted by geoBI wasn't offering any advice. You were saying that banjo has met its demise and I think you're wrong.
Just a quick look at the prices going for quality banjos speaks volumes.Prices are at an all time LOW. You do realize that, right?
You get what you pay for.
Look at an old Sears and Roebuck catalog and tell me they didn't have a varying price points based on the quality of the instruments. Banjos included.
quote:
Originally posted by geoBquote:
Originally posted by NePlusUltraNo6quote:
Originally posted by geoBI wasn't offering any advice. You were saying that banjo has met its demise and I think you're wrong.
Just a quick look at the prices going for quality banjos speaks volumes.Prices are at an all time LOW. You do realize that, right?
You get what you pay for.
Look at an old Sears and Roebuck catalog and tell me they didn't have a varying price points based on the quality of the instruments. Banjos included.
Apples to oranges, talking in circles here.
I'm out.
Waiter.... check please!
When top makers have a five-year waiting list, it’s hard to say there’s no demand.
Banjo prices (inflation-adjusted) were distinctly lower from WWII to 1960 or so than they are now.
Is there a builder with a 5 year waiting list for a 4 string banjo? Serious question.
quote:
Originally posted by NotABanjoYodaIs there a builder with a 5 year waiting list for a 4 string banjo? Serious question.
Yes, Master Luthiers of which there are maybe a dozen (if that) in the U.S. are rare, their workmanship (no disrespect to Miss Renee Karnes) is well known, and demand for their efforts is constant.
Even OME has a waiting list for their higher-end banjos.
I'll throw in my two cents that all it really takes is for it to get picked up in one area of popular music or culture. Maybe it's dead dead and that won't happen. But it's just the nature of instruments to go through waves of popularity. For a time the 5-string was the most popular instrument in America, then eventually the guitar took over--who knows what will be next? And the banjo and its various styles especially have been prone to going through cycles of being "dead" and then having a resurgence decades later.
Plectrum style on the 5 string was an accompaniment style in the 1800's that became popular enough that it was able to stand as its own thing (the 4-string banjo) during the Jazz/Dixieland era and became the predominant style ("killing" the 5-string). 20-30 years later it was so out of style people could buy them cheaply and the convert them to 5-string banjos for the new-fangled bluegrass style (and there was enough panic about classic banjo styles being killed off that the American Banjo Fraternity was founded). Then in the 1960's the Dubliners and some other banjoists popularized the 4-string banjo in Irish music and there was another revival of the 4-string. (The Folk scare also repopularized the stroke/clawhammer style, although it was still outpaced by bluegrass).
Now clawhammer is incredibly popular, bluegrass banjo is holding steady, it seems like even classic banjo is seeing renewed interest and popularity with younger folks (and in parallel there's an interest in experimentation with different styles than stereotypical bluegrass, including melodic, covers of non-bluegrass repertoire, and whatever Bela Fleck is doing).
Plectrum style on the 4 string still sounds pretty interesting--all it would take is people deciding it's a good fit for some new style or adding to some existing repertoire to give it new life. The recent emphasis and renewed interest in the black history of the instrument has also certainly undersold the 4-string's role which is another area where I think we could see a resurgence. We're probably due for someone to figure out a new use for the 4-string banjo...maybe you'll get lucky and someone will decide it's the perfect instrument for modern pop music tracks or something.
I took up the tenor seven years ago, a year after taking up the five string. I have always played my five string as a plectrum, though I have only recently dropped it into plectrum tuning (after all, Sean Moyses is brilliant using open G on the plectrum). I have been playing guitar since 1983. I also play mandolin and dabble in violin. I play jazz and rock on all my instruments.
Part of the problem is that few, if any, four string jazz players try to play music newer than about 1927. Jazz generally has a small audience. The audience for Twenties jazz is a subset of a subset. That alone contributes to the “four string is dead” perception.
So, as much as I like Harry Reser, Eddie Peabody, and Elmer Snowden (for that matter, Don Vappie and Cynthia Sayer, the latter of whom I had the pleasure of meeting shortly after I started playing), I try to play in a post-WWII style. I actually had a steady gig doing this (beginning on guitar before switching to banjo) from 2015 until the pandemic shut things down. The venue, a coffee shop, didn’t survive the lockdown.
It’s great fun to try to get some Ornette Coleman or Art Pepper lines out of the tenor (and that stuff counts as old now), or to play funk riffs on the plectrum. It’s also fun to play Prog rock and jazz-rock type stuff. People at my old gig told me they liked what I was doing, even though I was teaching myself to play on the gig.
Mind you, the plectrum seems to be going strong in neo-jump bands. This is an old clip, but the band is still at it: youtu.be/sswqPi-SQXI
I think the tenor and plectrum still appeal to curious musicians and audiences. The appeal of the Shakey’s Pizza styles and their historical antecedents is a different story. That music itself isn’t broadly popular. If that (lack of) popularity is one’s measure of the popularity of the instruments, then one can only be pessimistic.
Here’s an interesting video that just popped into my feed on the death of the tenor.
youtu.be/zzJo4rm6jSY
Hey L50EF15, I really like Big Bad Voodoo Daddy. It looked like the banjo player was only stemming chords, probably because he was sing. But even when he wasn't singing it looked like he was strumming chords. unfortunately I could not hear what he was play because the brass was so loud.
The brass in that Big Bad Voodoo Daddy clip IS loud, yes. The banjo is kinda felt and not heard. But that’s a lot like the acoustic archtop guitars that succeeded the four string banjo around 1930.
Of course, Smoky Montgomery’s tenor banjo drove the Light Crust Doughboys for decades in much the same way as Freddie Green’s archtop was the pulse of the Basie band. Knowing that, and seeing the plectrum in that role with Big Bad Voodoo Daddy tells me that the four string can still work as a jazz rhythm instrument.
After watching a few Big Voodoo Daddy clips, I think the banjo is just there strictly as window dressing. From a purely auditory standpoint, you'd never know a banjo was a part of the instrumentation. Maybe they'll surprise us some day.
Too late I learned about an open funk jam tonight, all instruments welcome. Funk sounds great on tenor (and on 5-string tuned in open G and played with a pick). Next time they hold the jam, I’m in.
I’ve read this whole thread—Well, I’ve skimmed it—and I still can’t figure what “dead” means here. Does it mean 4-string banjo are no longer made? Does it mean that 4-string banjos are not trending on Tik Tok? Does it mean hit songs in 2023 do not feature that instrument? Do it mean that not many musicians play that instrument? (If so, how many is “not many”?) The whole thing is awfully vague.
quote:
Originally posted by Compass56I still can’t figure what “dead” means here.
Same - I wasn't going to post anything, but it does seem to be a case of what benchmark you'd use. Measured against the 20s - yeah it's kind of dead, vs the revival era - kind of dead. Completely though? If people are still playing and taking it up as a fresh instrument to learn, even just a few then surely it's not so much dead as 'not popular' or 'non-mainstream' - is what I tend towards thinking anyway.
Dead? Nah. It might smell a bit funny, but its still kicking.
To the extent that what the OP says is true, in my opinion, a large part of it is because of the lack of abundant and easy to find tabs / diagrams for new players. Or that they are frowned upon for using them.
Of course, learning to play by notation is good in the long run and in most cases needed to be a professional. But younger players find that a daunting task and want tabs like guitar players and even 5-string players use. They should be able to learn to have fun first by simply playing and to keep their interest piqued. Then they can take lessons or whatever if they like.
In the past, it's almost like accomplished players wanted to keep the mystic all to themselves and out of the hands of newcomers.
Or so it seems. :)
Joe
