Joe Bethancourt, a member here had the best knock off : C. F. Martian, yes, it played notes.
Received an invitation from Mainland China to export to them one of mine. why oh why did I graciously decline.
If one is so disturbed by this gap.
Help finance a start up for younger banjo builders in a team on a fair percentage basis. USA has everything. Sunn had Carl Perkins.
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooksquote:
Originally posted by Bill RogersLet’s stick to banjos & avoid politics. Most labor in developing counties is exploited and underpaid by US standards, and assuredly we would not be communicating here without electronics made in China and other Asian countries. That said, British banjo makers were copying American instruments decades before Japan, Korea and China got into the act. While most of my banjos are US-made, Besides my 4 British Essexes, i have an RK-35 and a Bernunzio/Eastman WL copy (flush-fret) because I use neither enough to justify the cost of US-made similar banjos. The background and reasons for the Asian instruments go back to the roots of US history and is a highly political discussion—not BHO Fodder.
In the same subject the British also plagiarized and published mountains of US composer's banjo music, again, for selling to a domestic British market.
Interestingly the evidence also reveals many examples of British-composed popular dance tunes being 'repackaged' and sold in the US under an American name with no reference to the original British composer.
Sure Ellis and others were guilty of plagiarism in the late 1880's and 1890's; in the marketplace in general that is a very narrow 'keyhole view' and not a broad picture. Everyone was at it in the 19th century. The issue arises when you refer to this tune copyist activity as somehow 'uni-directional'. It tends to imply that Americans were creative and everyone else was incapable and just ripped off other people's ideas. Which of course is nonsense. If no-one has ever looked closely at the broader English cultural context c.1850-1880 in relation to the banjo and the only (American) interest shown to date has been in American forms, how is any such broad claim even possible or relevant when it does not refer to the broader picture? We are now looking closely at that context with a researcher's eye. What becomes evident from that research is that the English banjo context was far more independent and creative musically that it has ever been given credit for.
That's not an 'opinion', it is informed by a broad look at the available evidence. 
Edited by - quartertoner on 01/16/2023 05:33:24
Re Brits - On the other hand, we (USA) appropriated almost every fiddle tune played (and many that have been written since) from the UK,
On the OP's theme of banjo purchase I would try and buy where the love is.
A mass-produced product from any country of origin - Chinese, American or English isn't going to have the love and attention to detail that characterises a custom-made product.
That is not necessarily a deal-breaker financially. There are respected makers here on the Hangout whose lovingly-made custom banjos are not much more expensive than a mass-produced Asian banjo. And most folks here probably don't think twice about paying many times that amount for a vehicle. I treasure and get more pleasure from my banjos than any vehicle.
Priorities and perspective.
Edited by - quartertoner on 01/16/2023 06:20:16
quote:
Originally posted by quartertonerquote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooksquote:
Originally posted by Bill RogersLet’s stick to banjos & avoid politics. Most labor in developing counties is exploited and underpaid by US standards, and assuredly we would not be communicating here without electronics made in China and other Asian countries. That said, British banjo makers were copying American instruments decades before Japan, Korea and China got into the act. While most of my banjos are US-made, Besides my 4 British Essexes, i have an RK-35 and a Bernunzio/Eastman WL copy (flush-fret) because I use neither enough to justify the cost of US-made similar banjos. The background and reasons for the Asian instruments go back to the roots of US history and is a highly political discussion—not BHO Fodder.
In the same subject the British also plagiarized and published mountains of US composer's banjo music, again, for selling to a domestic British market.
Interestingly the evidence also reveals many examples of British-composed popular dance tunes being 'repackaged' and sold in the US under an American name with no reference to the original British composer.
Sure Ellis and others were guilty of plagiarism in the late 1880's and 1890's; in the marketplace in general that is a very narrow 'keyhole view' and not a broad picture. Everyone was at it in the 19th century. The issue arises when you refer to this tune copyist activity as somehow 'uni-directional'. It tends to imply that Americans were creative and everyone else was incapable and just ripped off other people's ideas. Which of course is nonsense. If no-one has ever looked closely at the broader English cultural context c.1850-1880 in relation to the banjo and the only (American) interest shown to date has been in American forms, how is any such broad claim even possible or relevant when it does not refer to the broader picture? We are now looking closely at that context with a researcher's eye. What becomes evident from that research is that the English banjo context was far more independent and creative musically that it has ever been given credit for.
That's not an 'opinion', it is informed by a broad look at the available evidence.
Strange, at no time have I ever written that the British were not creative. If I recall correctly, Ellis claimed that he could not keep up with the demand which is why he turned to plagiarism. Ellis was a very talented composer and several of his compositions are still being played by the very few people who play that stuff. You will also find that my notebook of regular rotation pieces are jammed with Emile Grimshaw titles.
In fact, I am constantly saying that in many cases the British did it better. My "second" daily player banjo is a CE Metal Hoop Special.
The "copies" of American designs are loosely based. While CE's Concert Grand uses the bracket band and scalloped truss, the rest of the banjo is very different. The British also copied themselves, evident in all the different makes that emulate Alfred Weaver's design. I would say that CE made versions of US designs-- none are duplications.
I can only speak narrowly of the classic banjo era and published (or extant manuscript) music as that is all I know. I don't recall seeing then current British compositions being published in the US under a different title or composer or both. But I do have plenty of examples of the other way around.
Since I am interested in such things, are you able to produce examples of American published editions or then current plagiarized titles from British composers for banjo? I would love to revise my narrative based on that evidence.
quote:
Originally posted by wrench13Re Brits - On the other hand, we (USA) appropriated almost every fiddle tune played (and many that have been written since) from the UK,
To be fair Joel is referring, as is his past history, to commercial sheet music and texts of what are a very few individuals and the banjos themselves.
It is really time for us all to call it a day on making sweeping generalisations on what is an absurdly tiny (and therefore unrepresentative) sample. And to be perfectly blunt, to stop buying a grossly American-centric disregard for an indigenous early English banjo culture.I'm not referring to Joel, but to every academic banjo historian to date without exception. No-one, researchers included, are denying the prevalance and popularity c. 1843-early 20th century of an American-originated black-face repertoire. But what that myopic generalisation does is function to obscure the diversity of cultural activity that drew on other non-American influence.
The continuation of a vernacular repertoire that went across to the US from the British Isles and elsewhere cannot be referred to as 'plagiarism. In it's earliest manifestation it was played by immigrants from that culture and not 'stolen' at all. Vernacular forms have no 'ownership'. Vernacular forms evolve and change due to context as these tunes did in the US. Joel's reference to plagiarism only arises when there is a commercial marketplace.
Edited by - quartertoner on 01/16/2023 06:43:42
quote:
Originally posted by Joel HooksSince I am interested in such things, are you able to produce examples of American published editions or then current plagiarized titles from British composers for banjo? I would love to revise my narrative based on that evidence.
Joel, as I'm sure you appreciate it's a huge subject and not one that can be neatly summarised in a BHO post. Your reference to 'composers for banjo' itself presupposes and leads us off down a cul-de-sac. From the 1850's there was a vast and lucrative English popular music publishing industry centred on London. Whether that output was 'written for banjo' is largely irrelevant. We have evidence that many of these tunes were played on banjo even though the published notation was typically for pianoforte. The key factor was that outputs shape in the contemporary social context and popular imagination. I was thinking how to illustrate this very concisely and I came up with this one item dating from 1879. Coote was one prolific composer among many (Marriott, D'Albert etc.). Their presence dwarfs an individual like Ellis, who active in the late 1880's and 1890's was a johnny-come-lately in musical terms. The main relevant fact about Ellis is that he is easy to see in the record.
Do American banjo historians seriously think this mass-market context had no influence on the banjo in England? The simple answer is they've never bothered to find out.
Add to this the existing vernacular culture and banjo-specific tunes written by English banjoists (both for publication and as self-composed performance pieces) well before Grimshaw and Morley et al. and maybe people will start to realise how much more interesting and diverse the broad picture is.
Edited by - quartertoner on 01/16/2023 07:15:40
Sometimes relevant information is in relatively plain sight but the cultural context is not understood and therefore the relevance and interest cannot be gleaned.
When Clifford Essex first sought out and heard an exceptional young banjoist he'd been told about - Joe Morley - the tune which was Morley's pier-end performance piece de resistance was Meyer Lutz's 'Pas de Quatre'. Not a 'tune written for banjo'; it was a melody directly drawn from popular culture. He was also playing this Victorian burlesque piece on a smooth-arm 7-string banjo.
A popular tune that everyone in England from labourers to lawyers were whistling.
Edited by - quartertoner on 01/16/2023 10:11:55
quote:
Originally posted by quartertonerSometimes relevant information is in relatively plain sight
Mike , thank you for your interesting additions to this post ! This last part reminded me of this story --- w/ no ill meaning towards ethnicity .
Many yrs ago the Italian government set about to curb the crime in the land & composed a committee to investigate its roots . After several years of compiling the subject they presented its finding to highest court that the crime in question was being committed by Italians .
Edited by - heavy5 on 01/16/2023 10:56:16
quote:
Originally posted by heavy5quote:
Originally posted by quartertonerSometimes relevant information is in relatively plain sight
Mike , thank you for your interesting additions to this post ! This last part reminded me of this story --- w/ no ill meaning towards ethnicity .
Many yrs ago the Italian government set about to curb the crime in the land & composed a committee to investigate its roots . After several years of compiling the subject they presented its finding to highest court that the crime in question was being committed by Italians .
I realise my responses to the mention of 19th century plagiarism are a topic drift. Hopefully only brief! I felt that the posts I was responding to did warrant a considered reply.
I have owned Eastman fiddles, guitars, and mandolins. Some years ago physical problems caused me to sell my Santa Cruz dreadnaught. When Iater decided to play guitar as well as banjo, I did a lot of research. I purchased an Eastman E10D TC for $1650 - shipping included. I was so impressed I also purchased an Eastman electric guitar. I recently made a deposit on an Eastman E20D MR TC.
Being able to purchase a quality instrument at a very reasonable was my reason for buying the Eastman guitars. Having instruments like this available is without doubt creating a lot interest in playing string instruments. Higher priced guitars like Collings, Martin, Santa Cruz, etc. are status symbols and people starting out with guitars like Eastmans will sometime purchase the more expensive instruments.
I don't think there are any ethical problems. There are economic concerns for some manufacturers, but so long as no patent/copyright violations occur, there is no problem.
Edited by - Richard Hauser on 01/16/2023 16:11:58
If my source was correct, the label "Made in USA" only requires that a certain percentage of the work was accomplished in the U.S.. . The entertainment business misrepresents many countries and distorts our views about these countries. The late actor William Holden kept trying to get Hollywood to change - with no luck.
Lying and inadequate reporting has discredited sources of information. Information is not validated. In order to believe something, a person has to look for impartial news sources and/or accurate documentation before accepting what they hear or read. A winning candidate for federal office apparently lied about everything except his sex. And nobody made an attempt to validate his claims until after the election. The more ignorant someone is about something, the more likely they are to accept falste information. Lies get headlines, corrections are seldom newsworthy.
Prucha resides in a country that has been renowned for its workmanship. Juzek, a violin maker, produces outstanding instruments. In a documentary Geoff Stelling mentioned having some of his banjo components made by Prucha. I own a Stelling banjo, but I think a Prucha would be very comparable to Stelling. Import dues would probably make them more expensive.
I have owned Chinese made fiddles, guitars, and mandolins. I can only say good things about those instruments.
I don't talk about countries I have never visited. Living in several foreing countries made me realize how erroneous my conceptions had been about thoses countries.
I just got to see a Guild jumbo knock off made from Koa.
quote:
Originally posted by phbquote:
Originally posted by heavy5What are your thoughts on buying these instruments ?
The same as on buying pizza not made by Italians.
For years, the BEST pizza shop in Spartanburg was called Patelli's Pizza, owned and operated by Victor Patel, from India. It set the standard here for NY style pizza. It sold years ago and is now called Venus Pie Pizza. It's never been the same since LOL at least it's not Mars.
I've seen, played, and owned a few of those Chinese instruments and would not hesitate to say that some of them are world class in terms of materials, fit and finish, and value. May of these higher-end instruments are handmade by very skilled craftsmen (and women). Of course there is the usual low-level mass produced crap too, to be expected. I think BlueRidge Guitars was one of the earliest and most familiar names from China, but there's plenty of brands made in China that are top-shelf, in my opinion. In regards to copying US designs and whatnot, that's been the same story since design and manufacturing has been a thing, it seems to me. Knock-offs can be found for just about anything.
Or we could order Domino's stuffed crust crap-o-rama :) it fills the belly and is life-sustaining.
Edited by - banjoy on 02/18/2023 05:48:25
I have about 30 guitars. Eastmans, Martins, Blueridge, Taylors, Gibsons, Fenders, Epiphone, chinese stuff luke Jameson and wellers.
One i bought off fleabay for 60 bucks in the 90s.
Every single one of them sound great on stage when played competently on the right song. Its mainly the player, picks and setup.
But, Id like to point out there are far more guitars than players. Buy used. I flip guitars. Just this year I bought a martin 2014 d35 anniversery ed for 600, severa d18s for under 1200, blueridges 140, 140a, 160s etc for 300 to 500. Eastmans are harder than martins to find but i got a couple premium eastmans for under 600. A Collings custom acoustic for 250. All since Jan 1.
I do know how to find them but my point is persistence will pay off and save some resources. Yeah, you can go buy a 1650 eastman made of eastern wood called rosewood and sitka but aint instead of a 12000 dollar brazilian rosewood Collings. Or you could find a real 50s Martin made of brazillian rosewood for 2500. Which is better? Depends on player, picks, setup and budget.
I think most people should stick with a USED 300 dollar takamine, 70s guild solid wood or Epiphone. Chord strumming is fun but dont require solid wood. Laminates sound really good nowadays.
Edited by - NotABanjoYoda on 02/18/2023 06:59:21
quote:
Originally posted by Richard HauserIf my source was correct, the label "Made in USA" only requires that a certain percentage of the work was accomplished in the U.S.. . The entertainment business misrepresents many countries and distorts our views about these countries. The late actor William Holden kept trying to get Hollywood to change - with no luck.
Lying and inadequate reporting has discredited sources of information. Information is not validated. In order to believe something, a person has to look for impartial news sources and/or accurate documentation before accepting what they hear or read. A winning candidate for federal office apparently lied about everything except his sex. And nobody made an attempt to validate his claims until after the election. The more ignorant someone is about something, the more likely they are to accept falste information. Lies get headlines, corrections are seldom newsworthy.
Your source was incorrect. "Made in USA" is regulated by the FTC, and any scenario that someone thinks they can get away with has been addressed by them.
They offer a handy booklet that spells out all of these with what is called "qualified claims".
https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/complying-made-usa-standard
They also take it seriously and have gone after many businesses, big and small, for false claims. It is a dangerous game to make false claims of country of origin.
Unless all parts, including raw materials, come from and were processed and assembled in the USA, a qualified claim must be made. The guide found in the link above spells out all the various situations and what that qualified claim must be.
Most people arent savvy about made in usa obviously, but companies are!
Thats why they either put Assembled in USA or incorporate in the US so that the can place the address the product was made in the US or wherever.
Something like
Made by American Toy Company
Austin, TX
Then people think, hey its made in the US.
I've recently stumbled into, and discovered, how nice some models of Yamaha guitars can be. I bought a very nice solid top Yamaha from the 1980s (near as I can figure) with nice bound fingerboard and peghead, very nice gold tuners and perfect action, plays and sounds great, for about $100 shipped to my door (no case). I found a hardshell RoadRunner case for another $60 delivered. It's basically a dreadnought design so certainly a knockoff of something. It's a beautiful sounding and playing guitar, I have no complaints.
Both dealers I bought these from, used, are in the US. I totally agree, buying used is really the way to go, the values and deals are abundant if you're patient and in no hurry.
Edited by - banjoy on 02/18/2023 07:18:03
I should have included yamahas in my prior post. They are really well made. Esp the 800 series. They make great motorcycles too!
I grew up playing a Silvertone plywood guitar that was more suited to playing with a slide than fretted.
Got a Yamaha in the 90s which I still have (200) ,but it just couldn't be heard in a jam with Martins and good fiddles.
Then in 2008 I discovered Silver Creek guitars and bought a handful and resold them after a basic set-up.When I tried to buy one for myself they had gone out of business,but soon after the same guitars showed up as Flinthills all the way to scalloped x-braces.
I never could afford a nice American guitar and the $232 pricetag for these solid wood dreadnaughts was perfect for me to get into a jam guitar that could keep up with the expensive ones.
Within a few months of my Flinthill purchase they also disappeared from the market.I lucked into the 2 mahoganies and 1 rosewood I now have for my collection.One of them came with a gift ukelele which is also solid wood construction.
Great deals!
Most folks require in a bluegrass band
Gibson Banjo
Martin Geetar
Gibson Mandolin
Dobro loud enough to be heard
Upright bass although electric bass is fine by me
Fiddle made by ???
Now that the 2nd wave of pickers are leaving us maybe things will change and you can
take your Chinese made guitar onto a stage and not get the stink eye
I never pay attention to stink eyes.I just do what's best for me with no apologies.
A deviation from the topic :
These Zager guitars that lately are getting so much advertising everywhere (including Walmart) have drawn my attention , especially the 900 acoustic model that I eventually found , contrary to their statement being made in USA , are actually only finished here w/ initial parts done off shore . Kind of like Martin w/ their Shenandoah venture which I guess turned out OK ? .
What the heck , Eric Clapton owned a 00028 Shenandoah that sold at Sotheby's auction for 22k I think in 1999.
U just never know sometimes if you're on a slippery slope ?
Edited by - heavy5 on 03/05/2023 09:54:58
quote:
Originally posted by banjoyI've recently stumbled into, and discovered, how nice some models of Yamaha guitars can be. I bought a very nice solid top Yamaha from the 1980s (near as I can figure) with nice bound fingerboard and peghead, very nice gold tuners and perfect action, plays and sounds great, for about $100 shipped to my door (no case). I found a hardshell RoadRunner case for another $60 delivered. It's basically a dreadnought design so certainly a knockoff of something. It's a beautiful sounding and playing guitar, I have no complaints.
Both dealers I bought these from, used, are in the US. I totally agree, buying used is really the way to go, the values and deals are abundant if you're patient and in no hurry.
I knew a guitar teacher back in Toronto in the Nineties. Once he was excited to show me the guitar he'd just gotten. It was a Yamaha and he said it had the sound he'd been searching for - and he already had one of Bruce Cockburn's Larrivee guitars.
In '16 I picked up an Indonesian-made Epiphone AJ-220 at a local shop, and could tell instantly that it was a solid top. Bought for $319 (Canadian) plus tax, I brought it to the Bluegrass jam, where someone said "It's amazing what they can do with CNC!" The plywood back and sides hold back some tone and volume, but it's a fun axe to play. Contrast it with the Sixties J-45 I had in the Seventies. The peghead said "Gibson", but could easily have said "Rubbermaid". I came across an identical J-45 here about ten years ago and played it. I thought, "That's why I got rid of mine in the first place." I checked the price tag: $4000. My AJ has the same sunburst (see photo).
J.P. Cormier gives a lot of context/insights in these videos, really worth checking out and mulling over:
Edited by - Paul R on 03/05/2023 21:46:08
