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Dec 7, 2022 - 4:50:53 AM
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Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

28208 posts since 8/3/2003

Lest we forget, let's remember the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed and many of our servicemen and women were needlessly slain.

Go here to remember and/or learn more.   https://www.nps.gov/perl/learn/historyculture/national-pearl-harbor-remembrance-day.htm

EDIT:  Don't know what happened to my URL, but it didn't show up when I first posted.  Now it's like it should have been. 

Edited by - Texasbanjo on 12/07/2022 08:27:44

Dec 7, 2022 - 5:15:02 AM
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STUD

USA

37336 posts since 3/5/2008
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Thankyou all veterans...

N thankyou Sherry for posting this..

Dec 7, 2022 - 5:57:21 AM
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Helix

USA

16351 posts since 8/30/2006

I showed my 6th graders a short film about Pearl

“You mean they snuck up on us on a Sunday morning?”

Dec 7, 2022 - 5:58:39 AM

23 posts since 3/18/2010

Roosevelt changed "a date which will live in world history" to "a date which will live in infamy," providing the speech its most famous phrase and giving birth to the term, "day of infamy," which December 7, 1941, is often called.

Thank you for your service ... to all veterans and those who currently protect our freedom.

Dec 7, 2022 - 6:24:36 AM
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rinemb

USA

15146 posts since 5/24/2005

My dad was at Pearl a few years later on a battleship. (just before it too was hit by kamikazis near Okinawa, where he was so horribly wounded.) A few years before he died, he and mom went to Hawaii on a biz trip. They went to Arizona Memorial. Mom never saw him cry so much. Brad
God bless our men and women in service, then and now!

Dec 7, 2022 - 6:29:51 AM

4301 posts since 9/12/2016

horrible pain they suffered--heroes I salute
 

Edited by - Tractor1 on 12/07/2022 06:31:11

Dec 7, 2022 - 6:41:53 AM
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rinemb

USA

15146 posts since 5/24/2005

Think of the horror and chaos! One of my mom's brothers was a navigator on a fleet of bombers headed to Hawaii at that time as she recalled. It was over a month before they got word of his safe landing later. Many thousands of folks waited those weeks to find out the status of their loved ones after the attack. Brad

Dec 7, 2022 - 10:19:32 AM
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Helix

USA

16351 posts since 8/30/2006

My uncle Troy served in the submarines.
He came back from Pearl in '39 and noted to my mom that everything at Pearl was above ground.
I found it ironic that the Japanese neglected to destroy the oil reserves which would have pushed us back to defending San Francisco.

Dec 7, 2022 - 1:47:24 PM
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Tommy5

USA

4155 posts since 2/22/2009

quote:
Originally posted by Helix

My uncle Troy served in the submarines.
He came back from Pearl in '39 and noted to my mom that everything at Pearl was above ground.
I found it ironic that the Japanese neglected to destroy the oil reserves which would have pushed us back to defending San Francisco.


The Japanese had no interest in San Francisco. From the Japanese POV, the attack wasn't a sneak attack to start a war with the US, but an pre-emptive  strike to prevent a war with the US or at least delay the US ability to wage an offensive for about a year. The fleet the Japanese were afraid of was still being built in US shipyards,. The Japanese crunched the numbers and figured by  1943-46, the US would have the largest fleet in the Pacific by far while the Japanese navy would be literally out of oil. There was plenty of oil in the Dutch East Indies, but the Philippines is in the way so war with the US  was unavoidable ,Hitler had promised the Japanese that he would declare war on the US if the Japanese would attack the Pacific Fleet and British Colonies.  Outsourcing his naval war against the U.S. and Britain to the Japanese.The Japanese were right that the US would consider the Germans the more important enemy. Some Japanese admirals argued that the US wouldn't declare war on Japan after Pearl Harbor. All the Japanese wanted was for the US to lift the embargo and be neutral in the Sino Japanese war. This is were Yamamoto dis agreed with the admirals as he had lived in the US, and said the Americans were a proud people , had never lost a war and weren't going to accept losing a war to the Japanese especially if  they thought the Japanese started it. Remember in the fall of 41 , the German war machine was steamrolling across the steppes and Japan and most nations though the USSR would be knocked out of the war in 1942?. Without the USSR , the US and Britain would have a much harder winning the war and might consider just letting Asia go to the Japanese and consolidating their resources to face a new German continental super power.  I'm not a Japanese apologist or even arguing that they were the good guys , but it takes two to tango,

Dec 7, 2022 - 11:30:27 PM

Paul R

Canada

16351 posts since 1/28/2010

quote:
Originally posted by Tommy5
quote:
Originally posted by Helix

My uncle Troy served in the submarines.
He came back from Pearl in '39 and noted to my mom that everything at Pearl was above ground.
I found it ironic that the Japanese neglected to destroy the oil reserves which would have pushed us back to defending San Francisco.


The Japanese had no interest in San Francisco. From the Japanese POV, the attack wasn't a sneak attack to start a war with the US, but an pre-emptive  strike to prevent a war with the US or at least delay the US ability to wage an offensive for about a year. The fleet the Japanese were afraid of was still being built in US shipyards,. The Japanese crunched the numbers and figured by  1943-46, the US would have the largest fleet in the Pacific by far while the Japanese navy would be literally out of oil. There was plenty of oil in the Dutch East Indies, but the Philippines is in the way so war with the US  was unavoidable ,Hitler had promised the Japanese that he would declare war on the US if the Japanese would attack the Pacific Fleet and British Colonies.  Outsourcing his naval war against the U.S. and Britain to the Japanese.The Japanese were right that the US would consider the Germans the more important enemy. Some Japanese admirals argued that the US wouldn't declare war on Japan after Pearl Harbor. All the Japanese wanted was for the US to lift the embargo and be neutral in the Sino Japanese war. This is were Yamamoto dis agreed with the admirals as he had lived in the US, and said the Americans were a proud people , had never lost a war and weren't going to accept losing a war to the Japanese especially if  they thought the Japanese started it. Remember in the fall of 41 , the German war machine was steamrolling across the steppes and Japan and most nations though the USSR would be knocked out of the war in 1942?. Without the USSR , the US and Britain would have a much harder winning the war and might consider just letting Asia go to the Japanese and consolidating their resources to face a new German continental super power.  I'm not a Japanese apologist or even arguing that they were the good guys , but it takes two to tango,


The Japanese turned right around and went to work conquering the Philippines and the Dutch colonies, as well as British assets in the Indian ocean. Yamamoto told his people that he could run wild for six months, but then the Americans would be winning after that. That was pretty accurate, considering Midway took place in June.

From a tactical planning and execution standpoint, Pearl Harbor was a master stroke by the Japanese. From a strategic standpoint, it was a disaster.

Pearl Harbor, plus the sinking of the Prince of Wales and Repulse, signalled the end of the battleship as the primary weapon of sea power. The battleships raised from the Pearl Harbor mud were used as floating artillery to bombard the islands invaded by the Americans. Newer battleships provided ant-aircraft cover for the carriers.

The Japanese bungled it diplomatically as well. The Embassy staff in Washington couldn't translate their documents in time to have an actual state of war declared before the Pearl Harbor attack. Not that it excused the attack. They could never have envisioned that the end result would include the fire-bombing of Tokyo and two nuclear bombs.

Dec 8, 2022 - 11:35:57 AM
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Tommy5

USA

4155 posts since 2/22/2009

quote:
Originally posted by Paul R
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy5
quote:
Originally posted by Helix

My uncle Troy served in the submarines.
He came back from Pearl in '39 and noted to my mom that everything at Pearl was above ground.
I found it ironic that the Japanese neglected to destroy the oil reserves which would have pushed us back to defending San Francisco.


The Japanese had no interest in San Francisco. From the Japanese POV, the attack wasn't a sneak attack to start a war with the US, but an pre-emptive  strike to prevent a war with the US or at least delay the US ability to wage an offensive for about a year. The fleet the Japanese were afraid of was still being built in US shipyards,. The Japanese crunched the numbers and figured by  1943-46, the US would have the largest fleet in the Pacific by far while the Japanese navy would be literally out of oil. There was plenty of oil in the Dutch East Indies, but the Philippines is in the way so war with the US  was unavoidable ,Hitler had promised the Japanese that he would declare war on the US if the Japanese would attack the Pacific Fleet and British Colonies.  Outsourcing his naval war against the U.S. and Britain to the Japanese.The Japanese were right that the US would consider the Germans the more important enemy. Some Japanese admirals argued that the US wouldn't declare war on Japan after Pearl Harbor. All the Japanese wanted was for the US to lift the embargo and be neutral in the Sino Japanese war. This is were Yamamoto dis agreed with the admirals as he had lived in the US, and said the Americans were a proud people , had never lost a war and weren't going to accept losing a war to the Japanese especially if  they thought the Japanese started it. Remember in the fall of 41 , the German war machine was steamrolling across the steppes and Japan and most nations though the USSR would be knocked out of the war in 1942?. Without the USSR , the US and Britain would have a much harder winning the war and might consider just letting Asia go to the Japanese and consolidating their resources to face a new German continental super power.  I'm not a Japanese apologist or even arguing that they were the good guys , but it takes two to tango,


The Japanese turned right around and went to work conquering the Philippines and the Dutch colonies, as well as British assets in the Indian ocean. Yamamoto told his people that he could run wild for six months, but then the Americans would be winning after that. That was pretty accurate, considering Midway took place in June.

From a tactical planning and execution standpoint, Pearl Harbor was a master stroke by the Japanese. From a strategic standpoint, it was a disaster.

Pearl Harbor, plus the sinking of the Prince of Wales and Repulse, signalled the end of the battleship as the primary weapon of sea power. The battleships raised from the Pearl Harbor mud were used as floating artillery to bombard the islands invaded by the Americans. Newer battleships provided ant-aircraft cover for the carriers.

The Japanese bungled it diplomatically as well. The Embassy staff in Washington couldn't translate their documents in time to have an actual state of war declared before the Pearl Harbor attack. Not that it excused the attack. They could never have envisioned that the end result would include the fire-bombing of Tokyo and two nuclear bombs.


Exactly, Yamamoto was horrified to learn that his state department had bungled the ultimatum which was a de-facto declaration of war and was to be given before the attack. This played into FDR hands and he was able to characterize the brilliant attack as not an example of Japanese competence and bravery or even as an example of American incompetence and over confidence but rather an example of Japanese treachery. Yamamoto feared he had lost the war on the first day of battle. The attack enraged the public and it stated a race war of extermination between the nations. The Japanese admirals imagined a very limited naval war like the Japanese Russian ,war a couple of decisive naval victories and the war is over. The war with the US was a side show,  for the Japanese,a navy show, the big war was in China with millions of Japanese soldiers involved.Toland in his book on the subject argues that had FDR been directly involved in the peace talks instead of blockhead Hull, a solution could have been hammered out , the war served no purpose for US , and was a disaster for the Japanese. 

Edited by - Tommy5 on 12/08/2022 11:44:27

Dec 8, 2022 - 12:16:06 PM

6018 posts since 12/20/2005

I’ve never studied to what extent FDR was involved with ongoing discussion’s with the Japanese representatives.
Whatever it was, if he assumed a larger role, I doubt he would have been seeking some way of hammering out a peaceful solution.
The Japanese Empire had set their course.
The United States course was clear and resolved.
War was on the horizon and it was inevitable.

Dec 8, 2022 - 1:46:29 PM
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Paul R

Canada

16351 posts since 1/28/2010

There was plain old racism on both sides. The Americans thought the Japanese capable only of making cheap children's toys. Nobody, even the British, with a couple of years of war under their belts, could imagine the capability of the Japanese in overall strategy (multiple successful invasions at once) and equipment (the Zero fighter and the oxygen torpedo, for example). They considered the Japanese as inferior, despite evidence to the contrary dating back to 1905.

The Japanese were spurred by the war faction in their armed forces, a group who could literally get away with murder of those who got in their way. Indignant at being, in their perception, picked on by the Western powers, they were determined to seize control of the resources they needed (and Japan did not have the resources in their own lands). White colonialism became a target, conveniently allowing the Japanese to find allies throughout southeast Asia among disaffected native populations.

It was the ingredients for a perfect storm.

Dec 8, 2022 - 3:35:08 PM
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13747 posts since 1/15/2005
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I have mentioned this several times on here, so I won't go into any more detail than anyone wants, but my sister-in-law's great uncle was the Commanding General for Marine aviation in the Pacific for a period during WW II. I was fortunate enough to "rescue" his papers and other memorabilia that her brother had planned on tossing in the dumpster. I have had them about three years now and have had a very educational experience going through all of his papers, including a number of Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret documents. The conduct of any war is interesting, but being able to get inside of the actual workings is fascinating. I'll say one thing about the American commanders and that is the safety and welfare of their troops was of utmost importance. Their dedication to making sure the men under them had what they needed was an ongoing and more often than not, a tough tough job.

There are also some very stern letters to the Commandant of the Marine Corps, AA Vandergriff about the conduct of some general officers that are quite interesting. Included in the letters are casualty counts of both our troops and the Japanese. One interesting artifact I got with the things is a Japanese dog tag that is made out of wood. My guess was that anything metal was used toward the war effort and things that could be made from wood were.

Another interesting find is the Instruments of Surrender for Wake Island (1945, I think). Wake Island was captured from the Marines in 1942 and not re-captured by us until 1945. On a side note, a Captain Baylor was the last Marine off the Island when the Japanese captured it in 42 so in 1945, the first Marine on the island when we took it back was Col. Baylor ....... not a coincidence!

Dec 8, 2022 - 10:53:29 PM
Players Union Member

Tommy5

USA

4155 posts since 2/22/2009

quote:
Originally posted by Paul R

There was plain old racism on both sides. The Americans thought the Japanese capable only of making cheap children's toys. Nobody, even the British, with a couple of years of war under their belts, could imagine the capability of the Japanese in overall strategy (multiple successful invasions at once) and equipment (the Zero fighter and the oxygen torpedo, for example). They considered the Japanese as inferior, despite evidence to the contrary dating back to 1905.

The Japanese were spurred by the war faction in their armed forces, a group who could literally get away with murder of those who got in their way. Indignant at being, in their perception, picked on by the Western powers, they were determined to seize control of the resources they needed (and Japan did not have the resources in their own lands). White colonialism became a target, conveniently allowing the Japanese to find allies throughout southeast Asia among disaffected native populations.

It was the ingredients for a perfect storm.


True, Japan was a dis functional government. The Army and Navy sabotaged each other, , the Emperor was terrified of the military, the civilian government afraid of  being murdered  by Army officers. The Japanese Army was against the war with the US and Britain and favored helping out their friends the Germans by attacking Russia, a plan that favored the Army, The Navy favored the southern strategy of getting the oil it needed by attacking the Dutch East Indies, the Army argued the arrogant Admirals could never defeat the British or American Navy, The day before the attack, FDR told his secretary of war that he fully expected the Japanese to attack the U.S. within 24-48 hours and that his biggest worry was that the US would fire the first shot and the war would have an ambiguous start and he wouldn't get the support of the US public. The battleship admirals at one point argued the the Japanese couldn't attack Pearl  Harbor because the Japanese race lacked the fine motor skills to pilot an aircraft in a low level attack.

Edited by - Tommy5 on 12/08/2022 22:54:28

Dec 9, 2022 - 4:54:03 AM
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rinemb

USA

15146 posts since 5/24/2005

Taking the subject down to the folk level. My dad (Marine on a battleship) had an interesting experience before a later kamikazi attack took him out of action. He said most Japanese pilots that were shot down and survived their crash into the sea would kill themselves in the water rather than be taken prisoner. One downed pilot did not. He was pulled from the sea and taken to the brig. The Marines were in charge of brig watch. Imagine my dad, an eighteen year-old from a small town in the Midwest taking his turn at watching over the jailed pilot. This pilot was an older guy (likely late 20s) who grew up in America and spoke fluent English. They had interesting conversations. And, both resolved that each of them were only honorably serving their country, each doing their duty for family, country, and God. Except the pilot carried shame at not committing hari kari. He had become a bit too "westernized" I suppose. brad

Dec 10, 2022 - 1:34:31 PM
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Tommy5

USA

4155 posts since 2/22/2009

Actually the Japanese officers told their soldiers that the Americans particularly Marines would torture and kill any Japanese soldiers that tried to surrender . Since you surrender to save your life , surrendering to be tortured and killed served no purpose, better to kill your self it’s quicker. Even civilians on Saipan believed they would be tortured and some jumped to their deaths to avoid this fate. Some Japanese soldiers pretended to surrender on early in the war only using it as a ruse to kill Americans, so Americans would often kill any Japanese surrendering believing it to be a ruse. Of course commanding Japanese officers choose death over dis- honor .

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