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Dec 5, 2022 - 10:02:50 AM
358 posts since 8/9/2022

I realise that combinations of features are used to establish a likely approximate date of manufacture. I'm curious to explore whether specifically clad rims (not spunover) are themselves a particularly helpful means of establishing an approximate date of manufacture? I have one early banjo c.1870's with a crude spunover rim. Also several banjos from the early to mid 1890's with more typical (and common) spunover rims. I  also own and play several 1860's thin wooden rim banjos. Given that brass/nickel rims go back to the late 1850's it's not a question of first evidence; more a question of clad rim as a possible useful indicator +/- between c.1875-1890.

I've recently acquired a very well-made flush fret banjo with a clad rim and wooden end-cap to the wood rim. The overall quality of the build and hardware suggest that a cheap short-cut was not the reason for clad rather than spunover rim on this banjo. There is a big weight difference between the 1890's spunover rim banjos and the clad banjo too, the clad banjo being much lighter, more akin to early wooden thin rim banjos. Maybe an individual maker's preference? No bling inlay either, I strongly sense it was made with a players hands and ears in mind, not his/her (or onlookers) eyes.

My experience of early banjo construction as a player (rather than a collector) is relatively limited (a dozen or so banjos) compared to the luthiers and hardcore collectors here who have decades of banjos continually passing through their workshops. I'm interested in this wider perspective.

Here's a photo of my clad rim with end cap that sparked my curiosity. But I'm interested in the clad rim/date question in general.


Edited by - quartertoner on 12/05/2022 10:27:26

Dec 5, 2022 - 10:10:25 AM

2082 posts since 5/19/2018

Hard to tell age from that one photo.

Please post full front/ back. One from the side and also the inside of the pot. A few photos detaining where the cladding meets the wood would also help.

Better photos will get you better responses.

Dec 5, 2022 - 10:14:07 AM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Conder

Hard to tell age from that one photo.

Please post full front/ back. One from the side and also the inside of the pot. A few photos detaining where the cladding meets the wood would also help.

Better photos will get you better responses.


Alvin, if you scroll down this page of collectors corner you'll see that I've uploaded detail photos of this banjo on the thread 'G. Butler banjo c.1880'. 

A consensus on an approximate date of manufacture for my banjo would be lovely. I'm also curious in regard to clad rims as a means of establishing date of manufacture  in general.

Edited by - quartertoner on 12/05/2022 10:18:38

Dec 5, 2022 - 10:57:46 AM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

For comparison, here's a spunover rim typical of those that were very common on English banjos of the c.1890's. This example is on a J E Dallas.


Edited by - quartertoner on 12/05/2022 11:00:46

Dec 5, 2022 - 11:03:06 AM

2082 posts since 5/19/2018

Mike. Those additional photos are on your homepage. Most folks won’t see them unless they peruse the photos on your home page.

I took a look as I had a few minutes. Your banjo looks to be solidly in the 1890’s realm of construction.

Beautiful instrument.

Dec 5, 2022 - 2:02:12 PM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

Photos of the G. Butler banjo here:

banjohangout.org/topic/386523

Dec 5, 2022 - 2:31:04 PM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Conder

Mike. Those additional photos are on your homepage. Most folks won’t see them unless they peruse the photos on your home page.

I took a look as I had a few minutes. Your banjo looks to be solidly in the 1890’s realm of construction.

Beautiful instrument.


I'm interested in the specific feature(s) that make for a firm designation as 1890's? The neck laminations are similar to other early 1890's banjos (Bostock and Dallas) that I own. But similarly such laminations occur on banjos from the 1880's. 7-strings and flush frets (and to some extent guitar tuning machines) on English non-zither banjos are very often a few years earlier. But there are no hard and fast rules and much scope for anomalies. Without a maker's stamp there seems to be quite a significant leeway of uncertainty between a c.1882 date of manufacture and a decade later.

In regard to the Butler dealer-stamped banjo I'm really struck by the 'feel' similarity, especially weight, balance and neck profile, with slightly earlier English banjos I've played. The difference in 'feel' to the Bostock and Dallas banjos is quite apparent. Hence my question about clad rims.

My interest is also in social history in relation to the banjo. In regard to social contexts in the 19th century 5 years is a long time. And in many respects 10 years in the Victorian era was a lifetime.

Edited by - quartertoner on 12/05/2022 14:36:45

Dec 6, 2022 - 6:40:18 AM

4431 posts since 3/28/2008

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is "clad" rim?

Dec 6, 2022 - 6:56:23 AM
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7343 posts since 9/21/2007

It is kinda funny. My general impression of our current era is that we tend to think of the "rim" as the wooden part which has been covered with nonferrous metal.

A quick look through catalogs or period descriptions makes it pretty clear that during the "era" they thought of the metal part as the rim, which was lined with wood (one exception to this being Fairbanks and Vega ad copy).

In most of the descriptions the rims are called "silver with wood lining". Or "nickel plated brass with wood lining". Or "German silver with wood lining".

SSS used some variation of "German silver rim with wire edges over maple wood (or maple wood inside)".

Bruno and George Dobson used "nickel rim with wood lining", often adding "wire edge" or "wire on top and bottom".

L&H used "metal shell, nickel plated, wood lined, double wired". One also sees "both edges wired".

CE used "Hoop: Nickel silver lined in oak" (or hard brass, depending on the model level).

On rare occasion one sees that the edges are "spun over wire (or wires)".

But as far as metal work, none of these rims are "spun metal". Metal spinning is a specific form of fabrication and as far as I can tell no period rims were made this way. I believe Bill Rickard in Canada makes rims this way currently.

I'm guilty of using "clad" as it is a better description of the fabrication than "spun", but I don't recall a period usage of clad. I've been trying to break that habit and use "nickel rim" as that was period (as was "silver rim").

I have seen "wood covered with metal/brass/nickel", usually describing very cheap or low end banjos.

As far as fabrication, the "spinning" to roll the metal over the wires was likely done at a very slow speed. Since many makers of these rims did so in single person shops or sheds behind their homes, It must not have been that complicated to do. Many were done with a chasing hammer and no "spinning" involved.

Dec 6, 2022 - 7:39:44 AM
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7343 posts since 9/21/2007

quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is "clad" rim?


The construction of rims that was most popular between 1855 (when it was developed) and when laminated wood rims became more popular after about the 1910s (but they were still made up to WW2 and a couple companies are making them today).

See above for my thoughts on the use of "clad" when "silver rim" or "nickel rim" would be better.

So, basically, this would be pretty much most good banjos built 1880 on would use this rim construction.  I use "most" because there were still some all wood rim banjos being made that would qualify as high quality.  But nickel rims were considered the best construction method of the day for banjo rims. 

Dec 6, 2022 - 7:55:30 AM

4431 posts since 3/28/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is "clad" rim?


The construction of rims that was most popular between 1855 (when it was developed) and when laminated wood rims became more popular after about the 1910s (but they were still made up to WW2 and a couple companies are making them today).

See above for my thoughts on the use of "clad" when "silver rim" or "nickel rim" would be better.

So, basically, this would be pretty much most good banjos built 1880 on would use this rim construction.  I use "most" because there were still some all wood rim banjos being made that would qualify as high quality.  But nickel rims were considered the best construction method of the day for banjo rims. 

 

 


So a clad rim would have wood on the inside and metal on the outside, but would have been made by a different process than a "spun" rim? I had to wonder because the photo in the original post didn't seem to me to show any metal on the outside. 

Edit: Hmmm--maybe it does, but it's hard for me to tell, because of the lighting.

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 12/06/2022 07:56:42

Dec 6, 2022 - 8:12:11 AM
likes this

7343 posts since 9/21/2007

quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is "clad" rim?


The construction of rims that was most popular between 1855 (when it was developed) and when laminated wood rims became more popular after about the 1910s (but they were still made up to WW2 and a couple companies are making them today).

See above for my thoughts on the use of "clad" when "silver rim" or "nickel rim" would be better.

So, basically, this would be pretty much most good banjos built 1880 on would use this rim construction.  I use "most" because there were still some all wood rim banjos being made that would qualify as high quality.  But nickel rims were considered the best construction method of the day for banjo rims. 

 

 


So a clad rim would have wood on the inside and metal on the outside, but would have been made by a different process than a "spun" rim? I had to wonder because the photo in the original post didn't seem to me to show any metal on the outside. 

Edit: Hmmm--maybe it does, but it's hard for me to tell, because of the lighting.


"Spun rim" was a period term which is confusing as they were not made by the process of metal spinning. 

The general process involved soldering a strip of metal into a hoop.  This was nickel plated.  This was placed over a bent wooden liner with a scarf joint which was not glued.  These two pieces (the rim having glue applied to the scarf joint) were then placed on an expanding mandrel and the wood rim was then expanded to fit tightly into the metal hoop.  From that point the rim could be rotated or tuned (aka "spun") while a forming tool was used to roll the edges of the metal over added wire hoops or the edge of the wood.  

I would think that each maker would have their own system, but this gives a good idea of how it was done. 

The method of "spinning" is very different and involves a high rate of speed and one piece of metal that is spun on a lathe around a form.  Search youtube for metal spinning to see examples. 

As far as I know, there are no known examples of period banjos rims that were made using the method of spinning metal. 

Dec 6, 2022 - 11:16:46 AM
likes this

358 posts since 8/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is "clad" rim?


The construction of rims that was most popular between 1855 (when it was developed) and when laminated wood rims became more popular after about the 1910s (but they were still made up to WW2 and a couple companies are making them today).

See above for my thoughts on the use of "clad" when "silver rim" or "nickel rim" would be better.

So, basically, this would be pretty much most good banjos built 1880 on would use this rim construction.  I use "most" because there were still some all wood rim banjos being made that would qualify as high quality.  But nickel rims were considered the best construction method of the day for banjo rims. 

 

 


So a clad rim would have wood on the inside and metal on the outside, but would have been made by a different process than a "spun" rim? I had to wonder because the photo in the original post didn't seem to me to show any metal on the outside. 

Edit: Hmmm--maybe it does, but it's hard for me to tell, because of the lighting.


Here are some hopefully clearer photos highlighting the rim detail comparison I'm asking about. Direct overhead view and an oblique angle showing the outer surface of the rim. The G. Butler-stamped banjo (uncertain date) below, J E Dallas banjo (serial No. dated to 1893/4) above.

I'm not really concerned with the descriptive term(s) used, only the construction detail and whether that detail may in general have a possible relevance to the date of manufacture.


Edited by - quartertoner on 12/06/2022 11:27:04

Dec 6, 2022 - 11:53:59 AM

7343 posts since 9/21/2007

In my opinion it is not an indicator of date. Since any joiner with a bench and some tools could make banjos, we find some crude construction on banjos we know to be later as well as some pretty advanced stuff on earlier examples.

There is also the subject of building to a price point.

Dec 6, 2022 - 1:01:22 PM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks

In my opinion it is not an indicator of date. Since any joiner with a bench and some tools could make banjos, we find some crude construction on banjos we know to be later as well as some pretty advanced stuff on earlier examples.

There is also the subject of building to a price point.


Other features of the G. Butler-stamped banjo suggest that cost wasn't a particular inhibitor to construction. I'm not even aware if the construction cost of these two rim types differed? Or if they did, which was the costlier option to the manufacturer? It's possible to imagine that taking the time to create an end cap and the turned contours inside the wooden rim may even have been more time consuming and therefore pricier than curving the metal over the base of an unfinished plain wooden rim? Especially in a workshop where that method of finish was usual practice. 

I would not suggest any construction feature is foolproof when it comes to estimating an approximate date of manufacture; as you say there were always anomalies. But my instinct is that this banjo is a little earlier (possibly c.1885-90) and that the construction of the rim with metal and a wooden end cap is one (albeit fallible) clue. I can only be honest and say that as a player the banjo 'feels' a little earlier than the characteristic 1890's manufacture.

By the last two decades of the 19th century there was what we would recognise as a market. So I'm not so sure that by the 1880's 'any joiner with a bench and some tools could make banjos' that met what by then was undeniably a competitive and higher spec market expectation. Competition serves to ensure reputation of makers and dealers are critical. Just because lots of people were buying banjos did not mean any instrument would pass muster. With the banjo boom came increased purchaser discernment, fuelled in no small part by a social class of people with more means becoming purchasers of banjos. Documentary evidence reveals there was no shortage of ordinary amateur players who drew a distinction between quality and a jobbing instrument.

Edited by - quartertoner on 12/06/2022 13:17:44

Dec 6, 2022 - 3:57:05 PM

csacwp

USA

3067 posts since 1/15/2014

quote:
Originally posted by quartertoner
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks

In my opinion it is not an indicator of date. Since any joiner with a bench and some tools could make banjos, we find some crude construction on banjos we know to be later as well as some pretty advanced stuff on earlier examples.

There is also the subject of building to a price point.


Other features of the G. Butler-stamped banjo suggest that cost wasn't a particular inhibitor to construction. I'm not even aware if the construction cost of these two rim types differed? Or if they did, which was the costlier option to the manufacturer? It's possible to imagine that taking the time to create an end cap and the turned contours inside the wooden rim may even have been more time consuming and therefore pricier than curving the metal over the base of an unfinished plain wooden rim? Especially in a workshop where that method of finish was usual practice. 

I would not suggest any construction feature is foolproof when it comes to estimating an approximate date of manufacture; as you say there were always anomalies. But my instinct is that this banjo is a little earlier (possibly c.1885-90) and that the construction of the rim with metal and a wooden end cap is one (albeit fallible) clue. I can only be honest and say that as a player the banjo 'feels' a little earlier than the characteristic 1890's manufacture.

By the last two decades of the 19th century there was what we would recognise as a market. So I'm not so sure that by the 1880's 'any joiner with a bench and some tools could make banjos' that met what by then was undeniably a competitive and higher spec market expectation. Competition serves to ensure reputation of makers and dealers are critical. Just because lots of people were buying banjos did not mean any instrument would pass muster. With the banjo boom came increased purchaser discernment, fuelled in no small part by a social class of people with more means becoming purchasers of banjos. Documentary evidence reveals there was no shortage of ordinary amateur players who drew a distinction between quality and a jobbing instrument.


The Butler banjo looks inexpensive to me. Screws instead of closed bracket bolts, unnotched tension hoop, thin veneer fingerboard . . . It's also a seven string, and by the time it was made, those were out of style and considered low class. 

Dec 7, 2022 - 1:48:42 AM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by csacwp

The Butler banjo looks inexpensive to me. Screws instead of closed bracket bolts, unnotched tension hoop, thin veneer fingerboard . . . It's also a seven string, and by the time it was made, those were out of style and considered low class

 


Unless my memory fails me, according to you class wasn't a factor in 19th century England, John. winklaugh

Edited by - quartertoner on 12/07/2022 01:53:47

Dec 7, 2022 - 2:42:09 AM
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358 posts since 8/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
So a clad rim would have wood on the inside and metal on the outside, but would have been made by a different process than a "spun" rim? I had to wonder because the photo in the original post didn't seem to me to show any metal on the outside. 


Edit: Hmmm--maybe it does, but it's hard for me to tell, because of the lighting.


Ira, here is another photo, this time of the G. Butler rim interior. These photos illustrate the difference I'm referring to. Not a huge deal, but a difference nonetheless. Maybe it's a personal quirk but I'm fascinated with construction detail difference (and similarity) in 19th century English banjos!


Edited by - quartertoner on 12/07/2022 02:46:46

Dec 7, 2022 - 3:23:05 AM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

Also as we edge back into the 1880's the landscape of English makers, particularly in London, potentially becomes very interesting. In contrast to the pre-1880 period of manufacture there is a little more documentary evidence, though still a relative trickle when compared to the flow of the 1890's. Joel's enterprising cabinet makers and carpenters were still present but relied upon for supply less than in earlier days. What we have is evidence of a number of makers such as Thomas Bostock,  John Dallas and Arthur Tilley commencing their output. And known makers such as Temlett snr, Bromley, Spratt and a few others already active but with big gaps in our knowledge. Also a growing group of banjo makers emerging from research in all areas of the capital (but predominantly in EC and SE districts) some working on their own account, some as employees. With additional diligent study there is the opportunity to bring this 1880's period of English banjo manufacture into sharper focus. In particular via the interrelationship between makers and dealers which is an area ripe for discovery.

Edited by - quartertoner on 12/07/2022 03:34:48

Dec 7, 2022 - 4:18:18 AM

csacwp

USA

3067 posts since 1/15/2014

quote:
Originally posted by quartertoner
quote:
Originally posted by csacwp

The Butler banjo looks inexpensive to me. Screws instead of closed bracket bolts, unnotched tension hoop, thin veneer fingerboard . . . It's also a seven string, and by the time it was made, those were out of style and considered low class

 


Unless my memory fails me, according to you class wasn't a factor in 19th century England, John. winklaugh


I never said that. 

Dec 7, 2022 - 4:22:23 AM

csacwp

USA

3067 posts since 1/15/2014

quote:
Originally posted by quartertoner

Also as we edge back into the 1880's the landscape of English makers, particularly in London, potentially becomes very interesting. In contrast to the pre-1880 period of manufacture there is a little more documentary evidence, though still a relative trickle when compared to the flow of the 1890's. Joel's enterprising cabinet makers and carpenters were still present but relied upon for supply less than in earlier days. What we have is evidence of a number of makers such as Thomas Bostock,  John Dallas and Arthur Tilley commencing their output. And known makers such as Temlett snr, Bromley, Spratt and a few others already active but with big gaps in our knowledge. Also a growing group of banjo makers emerging from research in all areas of the capital (but predominantly in EC and SE districts) some working on their own account, some as employees. With additional diligent study there is the opportunity to bring this 1880's period of English banjo manufacture into sharper focus. In particular via the interrelationship between makers and dealers which is an area ripe for discovery.


Don't forget Alfred Weaver, who likely had experience in cabinetry. He opened his shop in 1878, and right from the outset he created the pattern that most other English banjo makers came to adopt. 

Dec 7, 2022 - 10:18:42 AM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by csacwp
quote:
Originally posted by quartertoner

Also as we edge back into the 1880's the landscape of English makers, particularly in London, potentially becomes very interesting. In contrast to the pre-1880 period of manufacture there is a little more documentary evidence, though still a relative trickle when compared to the flow of the 1890's. Joel's enterprising cabinet makers and carpenters were still present but relied upon for supply less than in earlier days. What we have is evidence of a number of makers such as Thomas Bostock,  John Dallas and Arthur Tilley commencing their output. And known makers such as Temlett snr, Bromley, Spratt and a few others already active but with big gaps in our knowledge. Also a growing group of banjo makers emerging from research in all areas of the capital (but predominantly in EC and SE districts) some working on their own account, some as employees. With additional diligent study there is the opportunity to bring this 1880's period of English banjo manufacture into sharper focus. In particular via the interrelationship between makers and dealers which is an area ripe for discovery.


Don't forget Alfred Weaver, who likely had experience in cabinetry. He opened his shop in 1878, and right from the outset he created the pattern that most other English banjo makers came to adopt. 


John, yes Weaver was up and running throughout the 1880's. There's no doubt that his banjos were/are very well made and earned a well-deserved reputation, but I would be more than a little wary of attributing anything like 'singular influence'  to him or any other individual maker. The manufacturing scene was somewhat more complex and remains insufficiently researched to make such assertion. Weaver didn't materialise in a vacuum ; he was by no means the first professional banjo maker in London, nor the only English maker whose banjos were celebrated (objectively!) for their tone quality. We have to add examples of American-made banjos to that creative mix. Hyperbole was the public lingua franca of what quickly became a fiercely competitive English marketplace. If it had existed in the late Victorian era our modern advertising Standards Authority would be issuing legal writs like an automated tennis serving machine.

Wide cross-fertilisation of ideas in districts where a short walk would take a Victorian pedestrian past the door of numerous banjo makers would be notable if it were absent.  

Edited by - quartertoner on 12/07/2022 10:27:18

Dec 7, 2022 - 10:37:22 AM

csacwp

USA

3067 posts since 1/15/2014

quote:
Originally posted by quartertoner
quote:
Originally posted by csacwp
quote:
Originally posted by quartertoner

Also as we edge back into the 1880's the landscape of English makers, particularly in London, potentially becomes very interesting. In contrast to the pre-1880 period of manufacture there is a little more documentary evidence, though still a relative trickle when compared to the flow of the 1890's. Joel's enterprising cabinet makers and carpenters were still present but relied upon for supply less than in earlier days. What we have is evidence of a number of makers such as Thomas Bostock,  John Dallas and Arthur Tilley commencing their output. And known makers such as Temlett snr, Bromley, Spratt and a few others already active but with big gaps in our knowledge. Also a growing group of banjo makers emerging from research in all areas of the capital (but predominantly in EC and SE districts) some working on their own account, some as employees. With additional diligent study there is the opportunity to bring this 1880's period of English banjo manufacture into sharper focus. In particular via the interrelationship between makers and dealers which is an area ripe for discovery.


Don't forget Alfred Weaver, who likely had experience in cabinetry. He opened his shop in 1878, and right from the outset he created the pattern that most other English banjo makers came to adopt. 


John, yes Weaver was up and running throughout the 1880's. There's no doubt that his banjos were/are very well made and earned a well-deserved reputation, but I would be more than a little wary of attributing anything like 'singular influence'  to him or any other individual maker. The manufacturing scene was somewhat more complex and remains insufficiently researched to make such assertion. Weaver didn't materialise in a vacuum ; he was by no means the first professional banjo maker in London, nor the only English maker whose banjos were celebrated (objectively!) for their tone quality. We have to add examples of American-made banjos to that creative mix. Hyperbole was the public lingua franca of what quickly became a fiercely competitive English marketplace. If it had existed in the late Victorian era our modern advertising Standards Authority would be issuing legal writs like an automated tennis serving machine.

Wide cross-fertilisation of ideas in districts where a short walk would take a Victorian pedestrian past the door of numerous banjo makers would be notable if it were absent.  


Although Weaver was likely influenced to a degree by American New York School banjos he encountered, he did in fact develop the pattern that became synonymous with English banjos and was echoed (or copied outright) by Essex, Abbott, Temlett, Windsor, and many others. He ceased experimenting and formalized his pattern in 1882, but even his earlier instruments are surprisingly mature. 

Dec 7, 2022 - 2:27:15 PM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

I won’t attribute intention or behaviour to an individual from the Victorian period (maker, player, venue licencee, legislator etc) without documented evidence that can be referenced.

It’s a digression from the thread topic but it needs saying. One element of why the English banjo context pre-1890’s has been so neglected and overlooked is that anecdote and assumption on the basis of (what have survived of) the physical banjos has stood as a false ‘narrative’ in lieu of diligent social research beyond merely the banjo itself. That is a ‘collectors narrative’. The history resides in the Victorian people, what they did and where.

Asserting as fact ‘motive’ or ‘influence’ from a distance of 140 years in a culture radically different from our own, on the basis of merely the wood, nickel and vellum does not meet any accepted standard of validation. It is not even anecdote; it is a projection.

Quite different if we have that motive and influence direct from the individual as in the sourced reference to English banjo maker Harry Spratt detailing his inspiration for and intention to make banjos.

It’s long overdue that the distinct and vibrant early English banjo context is understood in relation to fact not assumption.

Edited by - quartertoner on 12/07/2022 14:31:26

Dec 8, 2022 - 2:44:51 AM

358 posts since 8/9/2022

This paper on confirmation bias illustrates why in a research context it is essential to apply caution and to take particular care to distinguish fact from assumption. Especially in contexts where current knowledge is fragmentary and partial and where many primary and secondary sources were themselves often subject to contemporary bias.  We are all susceptible.

researchgate.net/publication/2...ny_Guises

smiley

Edited by - quartertoner on 12/08/2022 02:59:17

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