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Dec 6, 2022 - 6:08:36 PM
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steff

USA

14 posts since 2/28/2006

I have been on banjo hangout for years and nothing has changed with the way some people talk to others and try to make them look like an idiot when they post something that they think is stupid. no wonder alot of very good people left and never returned. Dan

Dec 6, 2022 - 6:36:01 PM
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3093 posts since 3/30/2008

Skepticism, questioning, & ribbing are not insulting. Going public w/
a large claim is casting your fate to the wind.

Dec 7, 2022 - 6:36:51 AM

Owen

Canada

12638 posts since 6/5/2011
Online Now

I figure how the "skepticism, questioning & ribbing" [or the initial idea, proposal, query, etc. for that matter] are presented could be a factor.   My take is that steff's ^^ comment refers to those who bypass "respectful" to get to their standard M.O. of mocking and ridicule.     But, I suppose he has that covered with "the way some people... ."   And as always, I could be wrong..........  .

Edited by - Owen on 12/07/2022 06:39:18

Dec 7, 2022 - 8:39:13 AM

551 posts since 11/10/2022

quote:
Originally posted by Owen

I figure how the "skepticism, questioning & ribbing" [or the initial idea, proposal, query, etc. for that matter] are presented could be a factor.   My take is that steff's ^^ comment refers to those who bypass "respectful" to get to their standard M.O. of mocking and ridicule.     But, I suppose he has that covered with "the way some people... ."   And as always, I could be wrong..........  .


I think you nailed it Owen.  Id also add that no one owes anyone anything.   Its amazing how often keyboard warriors demand things with no offer to pay or no real interest in the subject.

Dec 7, 2022 - 9:48:35 AM

492 posts since 7/20/2007

I am going nuts trying to reply to a request to upload a photo that I just took of a shortened business card with steel and mahogany timbre rectangles attached to the side of the peg head of my Gibson. I've posted pjotos before but don't know what I am doing wrong. Any suggestions?

Edited by - yellowdog on 12/07/2022 10:05:09

Dec 7, 2022 - 10:46 AM
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551 posts since 11/10/2022

So i redid the experiment. Early on i did this experiment and thought i heard a tonal and volume difference on my cheap chinese banjo but not my gibson. So while practising with my band, I did a blindfold test on 7 people. I plucked the strings solid and played boil that cabbage down including a higher fret solo on 1 & 2 strings. I played 3 times, once no card and then 2 card configs. I did not tell anyone what i was doing. They were blindfolded.

7 out of 7 heard no appreciable difference. They cast secret ballets so no group think occured. 4 are professional musicians. 3 regular folks.




Dec 7, 2022 - 10:52:02 AM
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248 posts since 8/28/2006

Thanks for the pictures--that's really helpful.

Dec 7, 2022 - 1:53:22 PM

Owen

Canada

12638 posts since 6/5/2011
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by yellowdog

I am going nuts trying to reply to a request to upload a photo that I just took of a shortened business card with steel and mahogany timbre rectangles attached to the side of the peg head of my Gibson. I've posted pjotos before but don't know what I am doing wrong. Any suggestions?


I'm not adept enuff with computers or the internet to offer anything beyond my workaround. I was able to view the pics by going to Frank's homepage (?) [i.e. click on his name or the pic of some handsome dude or other] and then selecting "media" from the list that appears below the pic.   Move pics from there to here??  Ixnay...  like I said ^^.

Edited by - Owen on 12/07/2022 13:55:57

Dec 7, 2022 - 5:17:50 PM

492 posts since 7/20/2007

I was able to add the photo to my attachment list but have no idea if it will appear here since I see no button that says "attach".  I finally saw a button that says "attach" so I'll push that.banjohangout.org/forum/attachm...ID=292104 

I much preferred the sound using only the steel rectangle.  I can't explain the negative results of the experiment just posted.  It seemed like a valid test.  Thanks for trying it and posting results.

yellowdog


Edited by - yellowdog on 12/07/2022 17:29:01

Dec 7, 2022 - 6:22:28 PM

492 posts since 7/20/2007

Since I liked the sound of the steel rectangle by itself on the business card I thought that I would just tape the steel rectangle all by itself to the side of the peg head without using the card. So I just did that, placing it a little behind the nut on the low string side. The sound was, (to use an expression from the old TV show. "Good Times") -- "DY-NO-MITE!" A thin rectangular steel shim should work fine, probably available at your local hardware store. Mine was .007 in. thick soft steel and 1.0 x 3/8 inches.

yellowdog

Edited by - yellowdog on 12/07/2022 18:23:51

Dec 7, 2022 - 10:23:13 PM

3591 posts since 10/17/2009

Here's an audio file, demonstration of A/B testing of what this device is about. 

See if can notice time where changes are, and which is is which; and which you think is better.

 

Dec 7, 2022 - 10:25:19 PM

3591 posts since 10/17/2009

Here's an another audio file, demonstration of A/B testing of what this device is about; using a different banjo and set up.

Again see if can notice time where changes are, and which is is which; and which you think is better.

 

I will try and post another with other banjos

Dec 7, 2022 - 11:28:37 PM

3591 posts since 10/17/2009

Here's an another quick audio file of tune I wa working on, demonstration of A/B testing of what these various devices (including from previous topic)

Leave comments of time stamp of where notice these changes are made, and which think is is which (plain, card, wood, metal); and which you think is better.

 

 

Will see how many can get it right... should be informative. If OP hypothesis and claims are correct, this and previous others should be no problem to correctly identify noticeable effect, If no one can correctly notice, that can be informative as well to the merits.

Edited by - banjoak on 12/07/2022 23:42:29

Dec 8, 2022 - 7:27:19 AM

84 posts since 2/8/2016

I can't hear any real difference in the first two. (Visually the first example does appear to have more amplitude in the first half.) The third sample has a jarring (partially due to the splice) change just past the half way mark (during the rolls). The embedded app is not giving me a time stamp. The sound decreases in volume and the timbre warms noticeably (to me).
banjoak , I enjoyed the songs and appreciate your efforts. I can't see any real world application for this (I have paid plenty for microphones, mixers, and amps), but the theoretical aspects are fascinating.

Dec 8, 2022 - 9:16:43 AM

551 posts since 11/10/2022

The third track background track is too distracting to really isolate. I can hear splice changes in the first two. Some i believe are fretting, some are digital. But no significant ear dropping stuff. If a difference exists, its not noticeable on my little tablet speaker.

Now if someone was to do prewar flatheads 1fl vs 2fl vs postwar, Id whip out the headphones.

Dec 8, 2022 - 10:21:55 AM

3591 posts since 10/17/2009

quote:
Originally posted by JohnnyShayne

The embedded app is not giving me a time stamp. 


Sorry about that. Alternatively could indicate via, part, bar or beat number; of where noticeable differences occur due to the swap of devices.

The point is supposed to create an difference in volume and tone... blind A/B type recording to be evaluated with ears not eyes.

I went ahead and uploaded them as mp3s to BHO if that helps. 


Edited by - banjoak on 12/08/2022 10:23:54

Dec 8, 2022 - 11:05:12 AM

3591 posts since 10/17/2009

quote:
Originally posted by NotABanjoYoda

The third track background track is too distracting to really isolate. I can hear splice changes in the first two. Some i believe are fretting, some are digital. But no significant ear dropping stuff. If a difference exists, its not noticeable on my little tablet speaker.

Now if someone was to do prewar flatheads 1fl vs 2fl vs postwar, Id whip out the headphones.


So you did hear noticeable differences? Interesting, care to share where heard changes occurred?

Similar to your blindfold test... except in this is just recorded multiple takes, with and without. Then randomly selected mute/unmute between take lanes for final playback (pretty easy in most DAWs). Other than that, no other adjustment, editing, cutting/splicing was done... nor did I touch/change any of the faders; nor use any plug-ins FX processing (compression/EQ/reverb...)  just raw recording. 

edit: I did try to avoid swaps in middle of transient attacks, but a few places where I missed that so might be noticeable blip.

Edited by - banjoak on 12/08/2022 11:22:04

Dec 8, 2022 - 11:56:41 AM

84 posts since 2/8/2016

quote:
Originally posted by banjoak
quote:
Originally posted by JohnnyShayne

The embedded app is not giving me a time stamp. 


Sorry about that. Alternatively could indicate via, part, bar or beat number; of where noticeable differences occur due to the swap of devices.

The point is supposed to create an difference in volume and tone... blind A/B type recording to be evaluated with ears not eyes.

I went ahead and uploaded them as mp3s to BHO if that helps. 


I listen to all three again.  The only change I am hearing is at 39 seconds in La Partida there is a small but noticeable volume drop.  Also I believe that the timbre warms a bit and is possibly a bit duller.  Perhaps the clawhammer technique reduces the effects being discussed.

FYI, I am listening via studio headphones through a PC.

Dec 8, 2022 - 12:20:55 PM
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728 posts since 10/23/2003

some nice tips here.

I have found in now about 23 years of banjo playing the sure fire way to get improved tone out of any of the about 10 banjos that have passed through my hands over these years is to get someone other than myself to play it. This has worked for brand new good times and 1890s fairbanks, for my bottom of the line Recording King RB and my 1920s Tubaphone, for the Gold Tone in my arms as I type, and my cherished Enoch Tradesman.

As soon as another banjoist picks it, whether finger or frailing, 2 finger or Scruggs, it sounds a whole lot better!

Edited by - writerrad on 12/08/2022 12:23:04

Dec 8, 2022 - 12:25:22 PM
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728 posts since 10/23/2003

quote:
on mine some say a massive improvement comes if I am playing it if all the strings are removed!

Originally posted by Silver_Falls

The best improvement on my banjo came from taping the business card directly on top of the strings.


Dec 8, 2022 - 12:28:29 PM

551 posts since 11/10/2022

So i put on some gaming headphones. Wife and I listened to all 3 one time so as not to try too hard to hear.

Wife did not hear any change at all on any of the 3.

I heard:
test 1: Digitizing troubles at 3 seconds
20-21 sec : Change in plucking that lasted 12 secs
103-104: Volume change through the end

la partita NADA changes

Betty
16-17: Louder for awhile on plucked but not rhythm

Thats it. Enjoyed the music so it was worth it. I wonder if simply doing a 3rd and 2nd string fret walk would be better? Clawhammer flows.

Dec 8, 2022 - 2:05:31 PM

3591 posts since 10/17/2009

quote:
Originally posted by JohnnyShayne
 

I listen to all three again.  The only change I am hearing is at 39 seconds in La Partida there is a small but noticeable volume drop.  Also I believe that the timbre warms a bit and is possibly a bit duller.  Perhaps the clawhammer technique reduces the effects being discussed.

FYI, I am listening via studio headphones through a PC.


I hear where I think you are talking about. Nope, no take change there, but just my playing. 

Dec 8, 2022 - 2:06:01 PM

3591 posts since 10/17/2009

quote:
Originally posted by NotABanjoYoda

So i put on some gaming headphones. Wife and I listened to all 3 one time so as not to try too hard to hear.

Wife did not hear any change at all on any of the 3.

I heard:
test 1: Digitizing troubles at 3 seconds
20-21 sec : Change in plucking that lasted 12 secs
103-104: Volume change through the end

la partita NADA changes

Betty
16-17: Louder for awhile on plucked but not rhythm

Thats it. Enjoyed the music so it was worth it. I wonder if simply doing a 3rd and 2nd string fret walk would be better? Clawhammer flows.


 

Good ear for hearing few transitions, however;

The down side of this method was that I don't play it exactly every time thru, might change RH position and attack, dynamics/tone/timing on each note, or phrasing. As well holding the banjo, might shift ever so slightly in relationship to the mics. When comping takes, listen close might notice the switch (I could have done little better on that part). What need to discern is hearing is differences between takes vs effect of device. Part of my thought to accommodated this control was by playing multiple takes with and without. That is, some of the transitions are both takes with device, or both takes without. If the device(s) have effect as claimed, should be consistently noticeable, more than can be overcome by subtle playing differences of takes?

Just to point out, that is part of few you noticed... were takes not effect of device?

Edited by - banjoak on 12/08/2022 14:11:33

Dec 8, 2022 - 2:33:45 PM

551 posts since 11/10/2022

Its a difficult thing. I believe I heard effects of device on all but one, where it was more the effect of takes.

Of course we screwed the pooch for everyone by posting what we hear when we should email you our answers so as to not bias others.

I would suggest playing the same fret patterns 6 times all the way through each time. Make 2,3 or 4 of them with the device but dont tell us how many of the 6. Post all 6. Then have everyone pm you which ones they think were with the device. Compile the answers for a week then post results. Start a new thread so others will participate.

I think the useful numbers will be
1) % of people that hear no differences at all
2) % of people that get it perfectly right
3) % correct overall

But playing something like a 2 string scale will make it easier on the player to remain consistent.

Dec 8, 2022 - 5:22:15 PM

532 posts since 1/24/2004

I tried testing yellowdog 's device on a Gibson Mastertone. I played FMB once through without the business card and used a dB Volume iPhone app to measure the loudness at 12 inches from the strings to the iPhone mic. I got 96dB. I then repeated the same thing with the card taped to the side of the peghead in the manner of yellow dog's picture. I got 96 dB. To me, there was no perceptible difference in volume or timbre.


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