Seems to me you would be hearing the new surface vibrate like you do when putting the head stock against a door for example. Just another surface vibration. But dear god guys... . .this is too easy to try and confirm or reject.....why all the speculation. As soon as I get back to my banjo I will try it.
Maybe it is the requirement of the tape type that is holding folk back....dunno
quote:
Originally posted by Scrubbing Monkeys
Maybe it is the requirement of the tape type that is holding folk back....dunno
We don't have that particular tape in the UK. There might be an equivalent but who knows.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex ZReview in Banjo Newsletter, June 2017:
https://banjonews.com/2017-06/the_geiger_banjo_tone_amplifier.html
At least one individual has heard a difference and has measured the effect.
Doesn't mean everyone can hear a difference on every banjo. Kind of like hearing tap tones on the head. One person not hearing it does not mean tap tones don't exist, although that's the logic that some argue for.
A/B comparisons are crude when they don't control for variables -- and one important variable is the ability of a listener to discerns small differences.
I'll dig up the 'scope pictures.
In the meantime, anyone willing to change their mind if the 'scope pictures show a difference? The BHO article showed that there was both an audible difference and a measurable difference.
Otherwise, what's the use. It will be "Scope shows a difference but I can't hear it." Or, "The A/B test wasn't done with my banjo." Or, "It's a psychological trick where the mind thinks there is a difference if the person believes there is a difference." Or, etc. etc.
I for one want to see the data pics. Im surprised @yellowdog dont have them and post. Im more amazed Alex Z has saved it. Bravo.
And who really cares about the hostile barking? Just ignore the background noise. Those pics will be a good conclusion regardless of what they show, yea or nay!
I have all the BHO issues, including the initial ones that look like Xerox copies. Locating June 2017 will take about 5 minutes.
Scanning and upload will take a little longer. 
The easy, cheap and fun improvement to our banjo's sound?
Practice.
Edited by - quartertoner on 12/01/2022 10:39:38
There are the pictures -- the measurability. And the ears -- the audibility.
The medium -- the specific banjo -- might be part of the phenomenon. The BHO review's banjos had a few suboptimal notes, which were improved. NotABanjoYoda heard a change on one banjo but not on the RB250.
A few months ago Mr. Frank graciously sent me a device to try, which I tried on all three of my banjos. I did not hear a difference on my banjos -- but they are all world class instruments that have been optimally fine tuned over the years, and I don't think there is much more that can be gotten out of these instruments. Could be that any differences are being overwhelmed by the basic sound of the instrument.
So from the evidence we have so far, a scientific hypotheses might be that the device has an effect, and the audibility of the effect depends on the underlying tone of the instrument -- weaker and less full the existing sound, the more likely the effect of the change will be audible.
How to test? Get 20 banjos of various quality and 3 pickers without preconceived opinions, and let them at it. Thus, no one banjo is the definitive test, but rather the statistical outcome can verify if something is going on or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex ZIn the meantime, anyone willing to change their mind if the 'scope pictures show a difference? The BHO article showed that there was both an audible difference and a measurable difference.
Otherwise, what's the use. It will be "Scope shows a difference but I can't hear it." Or, "The A/B test wasn't done with my banjo." Or, "It's a psychological trick where the mind thinks there is a difference if the person believes there is a difference." Or, etc. etc.
The BHO is discussing a different device... not this one. That oscilloscope is moot as won't show anything about the device here, (nor previous one early this year)
If you would like expatiation of why these are different, or like to start a discussion on that device and BNL, and what problems there are in the article (and possible tests)... maybe another thread?
"Scope shows a difference but I can't hear it."
The OP claim " can increase the volume and tailor your banjo's "timbre" - is to most folks would measure results.... relates to experience sound, something that can actually be heard. Microphones are excellent devices for reasonably measuring such "differences" in analog sound in air... writing it to a wave file; that can be played back. listened to, and evaluated. It's the most straightforward and easiest way most folks, lacking expertise, can measure. Basic A/B test. Certainly you can also run that wave file through all sorts of free plug-ins to show a visual spectral display of what frequency layout is; thought I advise caution, it takes some work to understand these tools, as easy to make errors, or misinterpret.
"It's a psychological trick where the mind thinks there is a difference if the person believes there is a difference."
The point of posting blind A/B tests is to eliminate the psychological bias, placebo effect.
"The A/B test wasn't done with my banjo."
Moot since so far nobody has come forward to present A/B tests that even think they got positive results on their banjo. So no evidence presented at all. If you have found this dangly paper by scotch tape to increase volume, and can control timbre... why not post them?
I am open to the remote possibility that the OP has made an amazing discovery, missed or that defies understanding acoustical physics... but needs actual evidence.
quote:
Originally posted by Scrubbing MonkeysSeems to me you would be hearing the new surface vibrate like you do when putting the head stock against a door for example. Just another surface vibration. But dear god guys... . .this is too easy to try and confirm or reject.....why all the speculation. As soon as I get back to my banjo I will try it.
Maybe it is the requirement of the tape type that is holding folk back....dunno
No, it's not the same as putting headstock solid connected to a door or any other big surface with fixed ends, which is fairly well understood, and explained pretty well by basic acoustic physics of transverse and longitudinal waves. This is different than in using loose scotch tape between to a floating much smaller surface area, (and going by his description of physics);
But just to point out; I advocate things that will actually help folks learn about sound and actually be able to improve set up in sound. That includes being able to week out the good evidence, actual science, laws of physics; versus the lots of pseudoscience, myths to BS claims out there, (esp in audio world); these help no one.A skeptical mind is good. Don't just believe what some one claims... look at evidence.
Fair enough, that this experiment is easy to test - dangle peirce of paper or wood or tin can by loose piece of scotch tape. If it doesn't do as claimed, like others have found... then what did you learn about sound?
I did conduct a timbre variation test with the business card. - Sorry I didn't think to mention it earlier so I will here.
By the way, I like the sound of heavy paper because it has what I would describe as a "neutral timbre". (Or no timbre at all).
(By the way, let me first say that my quick test was just to satisfy my curiosity, not to please the very demanding critics on this Forum, OK?)
My test was to tape one end of a small soft steel rectangle (,007 in thick, 1 inch by 3/8 Inch) to the card stock so that the SAWS would flow onto the steel and back down on the card stock and then onto the Strings. The sound of the banjo was noticeably brighter.
I did the same thing with a small rectangle (I don't remember the dimensions) of 2-ply mahogany veneer and got a rich, wooden sound from the banjo.
I could have tested a brass recrangle but, as I said, the test was just for me and not anyone else and I've always preferred the sound of steel on my banjo devices.
Of course you can also use a thin brass, mahogany or steel rectangle instead of the card stock business card, but I thought most readers probably have a paper business card, and it also makes a good base to attach other matereals to for different timbres. I've never liked the sound of plastic, (Santa gave me a plastic bugle for Christmas in the late 1940's which sounded terrible!. And I had a plastic Harmony banjo, bought for me by that same Santa to take to college in 1955, which didn't sound any better! So don't waste your time testing a plastic business card!)
yellowdog
quote:
Originally posted by quartertonerThe easy, cheap and fun improvement to our banjo's sound?
Practice.
This. The pros practice...they don't use gimmicks but certainly would if it made them sound their very best. However I think the OP was just putting this out there as a point of interest but probably shouldv'e said your mileage may vary. Especially since the proof didn't follow immediately on the heels of the Opening Post.
I just performed the timbre test mentioned above again and did a couple of things more deliberately that I wanted to mention here. First, be sure that all tape is a stuck to the side of the card without printing since printing can degrade the SAWS flowing across it. When you attach the steel rectangle to the card stick it first at the center of the card, play the banjo and notice the banjo's brighter sound. Then move the steel rectangle so that its tape is at the edge of the card and then play the banjo and you will notice a much brighter, hard-hitting sound.. (-Which can "knock an audience off its feet" if you play a tune like, "Mama Don't Allow No Banjo Playing in Here",) The sound is loudest if the steel is beyond the edge of the card.The reason for this striking difference is that SAWS on the edges of the card are much larger than the ones in the center. This is due to a "whip action" caused by SAWS on the card whipping up at edges because there is no material beyond the edge to hold it down This is true of surfaces containing SAWS as it is for whips.containing SAWS. The mahogany rectangle gave a good sound for playing hymns like "Standing On The Everlasting Arms".
Y’all sound waaay yonder smarter than me. I’m like a cave man grunting and pointing at fire. Me love banjo. Me pick banjo. Me hear banjo….. me suck! …. Me still love banjo !
I should have mentioned two other things. Any rectangle is a SAWS amplifier because SAWS reflect off a rectangle's edges to intersect themselves and others with similar frequencies at an angle. So when a rectangle is taped to the top of another rectangle this is putting two amplifiers in series, which doubles the amplification when similar frequencies meet. The relatively large size of the business card and the tiny size of the teel rectangle (1 x 3/8 inches) ensures many frequencies are amplified twice. And placing the small steel rectangle taped on the edge of the card stock creates a very loud popping character to its high notes because of the whipping action at the card srock's edge. (Cracking a bull whip makes a loud noise because the whip's tip is breaking the sound barrier. What you hear with the steel rectangle taped to the card's edge is actually a musical note with a "sonic boom". (Or at least it sounds like that.)
Yellowdog
Hello,
Confusing terms are when mixing left is right and right is left. Series is sequential placement. When stacked together, this makes them parallel. To be parallel means tandem working together. Paper is a dampener of sound. Metal is a high bypass filter. So, the two mediums described would be canceling each other out. All surfaces interact when subjected to a barrage of sounds. The types of surface actions in the classical physics are absorption or reflection.
As the surface area of the paper card is << less than the surface area of the wood surrounding it, physics predicts negligible positive response and more likely irritating. Adhesive of all Scotch tape is not known to super adhesive like Gorilla Tape. So, nothing securing the device, rattles and device failure are sure to follow. The brevity of use would make the perceived benefit difficult to measure.
Gravity is still real. And sound creates vibrations. The high the tones, the faster the frequencies of vibrations. All of this activity causes Scotch Tape to fail. Relative humidity is important for adhesives to stick. Wood absorbs moisture. I like anything I add to my banjo to not add anything which cannot be secured. I got rid of my truss rod cover because it warped and wouldn’t lay flat. It buzzed. That has two screws to secure it. Scotch Tape? I don’t commit anything serious to Scotch Tape.
Edited by - Aradobanjo on 12/03/2022 03:31:48
Coming in late to the discussion, but I looked at every post.
I have previously suggested that one might build a banjo test bed, where the banjo would be strummed by a weighted pendulum, which would be captured at the end of its swing, so as to provide only one strum.
That would eliminate the possibility of a human hitting the strings differently each time.
A microphone attached to the bed would record whatever modifications were added to the banjo, and the squiggles on printouts of the scope could be compared, thereby removing the listener's ears from the equation.
Not like Van Gogh removed an ear, dangit!
This is a very long thread and many of the comments offered are simply not true or not applicable to what I have discovered. If you want to understand what I am writing about I suggest that you read only the posts with my picture. I don't blame anyone for not understanding what I've written because few are familiar with surface acoustic waves (SAWS) on musical instruments except for the waves on strings which are also SAWS (which some call vibrations) . You might have experienced SAWS if you've lived in LA and felt an earthquake, or lived in Asia and experienced a Tsunami. But ripples on a lake are also SAWS, and so are ripples of energy on all surfaces of banjos when they are played. - Even if you cannot see them or hear them they are there waiting for you to amplify them send them to the strings to improve the sound of your banjo. If you tape a business card to the neck wood on your banjo's peghead it will amplify the SAWS by the physics "Principle of Constructive Interference" which applies to all waves. And the body of your banjo will convert these improved recent SAWS into sound in its usual manner. The sound from your banjo will be much better because the SAWS will be recent ones and amplified on the business card (and any timbre enhancing objects you taped to the card). It's very easy to prove that this is true simply by taping the business card ro your banjo with the prescribed tape (pictured at the top of the post and which is available from Amazon). You will be amazed at the improved sound from your banjo and it will cost you only a few dollars for the tape.. TThere are 450 inches of tape on the small dispenser so it is a good buy id you hide it from family members.
Frank Geiger
yellowdog
edit: oops I answered after reading page one.. I guess it's still somewhat relevant though
Relevant to the discussion of why clarinets sound 'wooden'
And you can play along and see how many you get right
youtube.com/watch?v=Ykh4iOFA9cE
Edited by - A Drum On A Stick on 12/04/2022 12:52:04
Hello,
The claim is that clarinets can be improved significantly with this device If applied to the metallic Clarinet, the timbre would be such that the difference would indistinguishable from wood as claimed.
Hi yellowdog ,
I've reviewed your posts and am not clear on exactly how the card attaches with the tape. If you will please post a picture of the business card taped to your peghead so I can be sure I'm doing it correctly, I would like to give it a try. Thanks!
Scrubbing Monkeys: "But dear god guys... . .this is too easy to try and confirm or reject.....why all the speculation. As soon as I get back to my banjo I will try it."
But, but, but, ^^ that's assuming that the ear/brain/?? of the listener has the ability to actually "hear" it. From other threads/discussions, most can hear 'way more than I can.
I've only skimmed the posts... what did you come up with?
Edited by - Owen on 12/05/2022 12:34:22
Hey guys, forget those wimpy business cards.
In keeping with the holiday spirit, I've started taping all of my holiday greeting cards onto the banjo.
Then I continued to add sparkling glass and metal ornaments, and covered it from peghead to tailpiece with tons of glittering tinsel.
Wow, this banjo sounds so *amazing* now!
Especially when I'm not even playing it!
This has been an interesting thread. Unfortunately it's a little difficult for me to envision how/where the card is actually attached. If someone who has performed the experiment would post a picture, it'd really be appreciated. Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by AradobanjoHello,
The claim is that clarinets can be improved significantly with this device If applied to the metallic Clarinet, the timbre would be such that the difference would indistinguishable from wood as claimed.
Were you able to identify which was which in each clip based on the sound?
I was not.
