Banjo Hangout Logo
Banjo Hangout Logo

Premier Sponsors

685
Banjo Lovers Online


Jul 1, 2022 - 1:06:22 PM

kd8tzc

USA

392 posts since 4/11/2022

So, I replaced the 5th string peg yesterday, and today, I noticed that whenever I play the 5th string, I get this really high pitched ringing sound coming from it.

I also had to replace the pip a while back as the old bone one cracked, and you all talked me into using a brass rod for the pip. WHat I am finding is if I put my finger on the fifth string behind the pip but in front of the peg, the ringing goes away. I also tried just some tissue paper wedged between the string and the neck behind the pip, and sure enough the ringing goes away. I'm wondering if the ringing I am hearing is form the grove in the pip and the string.

Anyhow have any ideas that I could do to eliminate that?

 

Edit: also, I have checked that it is not hitting the frets... we are good there.

Edited by - kd8tzc on 07/01/2022 13:11:09

Jul 1, 2022 - 1:24:28 PM

ChunoTheDog

Canada

1619 posts since 8/9/2019

In my experience, head tension greatly affects how a banjo rings.

Every time I've had weird wolf tones/notes/unwanted ringing, I played some with the head tension and eventually got it to disappear. The ringing usually comes from my 5th string as well.

Usually for me it's too high of a head tension or too uneven of a head tension.

Jul 1, 2022 - 1:28:43 PM

kd8tzc

USA

392 posts since 4/11/2022

quote:
Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

In my experience, head tension greatly affects how a banjo rings.

Every time I've had weird wolf tones/notes/unwanted ringing, I played some with the head tension and eventually got it to disappear. The ringing usually comes from my 5th string as well.

Usually for me it's too high of a head tension or too uneven of a head tension.


I get that Chuno, but why is it when put pressure on that string behind the pip, it goes away?  Makes no sense.

Jul 1, 2022 - 1:38:45 PM
likes this

banjonz

New Zealand

11478 posts since 6/29/2003

quote:
Originally posted by kd8tzc
quote:
Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

In my experience, head tension greatly affects how a banjo rings.

Every time I've had weird wolf tones/notes/unwanted ringing, I played some with the head tension and eventually got it to disappear. The ringing usually comes from my 5th string as well.

Usually for me it's too high of a head tension or too uneven of a head tension.


I get that Chuno, but why is it when put pressure on that string behind the pip, it goes away?  Makes no sense.


It depends on the angle of the string at the back of the screw slo going to the new peg. The string has to bend enough to sit hard in the slot. I suspect this angle isn't enough and it is vibrating in the slot, causing the 'metallic' ringing. The peg needs to be installed at a sufficient angle (see photo) to allow for the angle at the pip/screw.


 

Jul 1, 2022 - 1:47:24 PM

ChunoTheDog

Canada

1619 posts since 8/9/2019

quote:
Originally posted by kd8tzc
quote:
Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

In my experience, head tension greatly affects how a banjo rings.

Every time I've had weird wolf tones/notes/unwanted ringing, I played some with the head tension and eventually got it to disappear. The ringing usually comes from my 5th string as well.

Usually for me it's too high of a head tension or too uneven of a head tension.


I get that Chuno, but why is it when put pressure on that string behind the pip, it goes away?  Makes no sense.


Sounds to me like sympathetic vibrations. Vibrations from playing other strings, being transferred to the 5 string. But as always I could be totally wrong.

Depending what tap-tone the head emits (G, G#, A, whatever it is) it can interact with the strings tuned G or whatever and make them ring out when it's not being plucked. 

Or, the 5th string is vibrating in the pip itself, yielding a similar result. I always thought to use only bone for that pip as those are rather 'dead' sounding materials and will help the string not ring out. (Ever notice how even the armrest rings out?).

Jul 1, 2022 - 2:16:17 PM

4442 posts since 10/13/2005

Yes, did you tilt the fitfh peg forward enough to get enough slant to hold the fifth string firmly in its slot? If so, maybe a higher pip. Tried a piece of paper in the pip slot to see if that is the problem? banjered

Jul 1, 2022 - 2:43:10 PM

kd8tzc

USA

392 posts since 4/11/2022

Yes, peg is tilted (back, not forward) on a slight angle. I'll try the paper bit and see what happens. I may also try and sand the grove just a bit too to see if that may help (no idea why it would, but something changed when I changed the tuner).

I'll check the head tension too Chuno. I'm not good with tap tones, but I do have a drum dial and will see if it is consistent all around. I may adjust just slightly as well. I'll do one thing at a time though so I can figure out what fixes it.

Jul 1, 2022 - 3:03:36 PM

4442 posts since 10/13/2005

Sounds like you need to yank that tuner out and tilt it forward. Use another banjo or two to get a better idea how much you need to tilt it. Good Luck! banjered

Jul 1, 2022 - 3:18:58 PM
likes this

Alex Z

USA

4900 posts since 12/7/2006

You know what is causing the ring -- vibration in the portion of the string between the pip and the tuner. 
 

You know what triggered the cause -- replaced 5th string tuner. 
 

You can therefore conclude that something about the new tuner is different from the old.   No need to do anything with head tension at this point, considering the evidence you already have. 
 

You know how to fix the unwanted ring. 
 

What you're looking for now is simply a neater fix. 
 

A picture would help in figuring this out. Sometimes a solution is not either yes or no, but how much. 

Jul 1, 2022 - 4:11:16 PM
like this
Players Union Member

RioStat

USA

5852 posts since 10/12/2009

quote:
Originally posted by banjered

Sounds like you need to yank that tuner out and tilt it forward. Use another banjo or two to get a better idea how much you need to tilt it. Good Luck! banjered


One mans "forward" is another man's "back (ward)"

The picture posted just a couple posts before your post, Tom, shows a 5th string tuner that is, what myself, and I'd bet a lot of other people would say, is tilted "back"

Edited by - RioStat on 07/01/2022 16:12:26

Hide these ads: join the Players Union!
Jul 1, 2022 - 4:50:21 PM
like this

leehar

USA

119 posts since 2/18/2018

I had a mid seventies Ibanez Artist which came with a 3/8” long piece of clear plastic tubing over the fifth string between the pip and the tuner. I suspect that’s why it was on there, to eliminate vibration of the string against the fretboard binding. Maybe you could try that.

Jul 1, 2022 - 5:14:38 PM

banjonz

New Zealand

11478 posts since 6/29/2003

I have had another thought (strange as it may seem)! The string may be just touching and vibrating on the fret wire. This indicates the screw is slightly too low. You could turn the screw 1/2 turn outwards and see if anything changes.

Jul 1, 2022 - 5:34:35 PM

kd8tzc

USA

392 posts since 4/11/2022

Okay, so I buffed up the pip a bit, and it seems to have taken care of the issue. I did not adjust the angle. Here is a picture of what it looks like. The tilt looks okay to me, but you tell me.

It can't be hitting the fret as the fret does not go in front of the pip on the Gold Tone 150's. Just the way they designed them. I checked all the way down before though and it had plenty of clearance.


Jul 1, 2022 - 6:20:43 PM

4442 posts since 10/13/2005

The tilt is a bit on the not-enough scale side of things. However it looks like it is enough of a tilt such that you could put a new string on with extra wraps around the post such that you have a steeper break angle between the pip and post. The break angle is why your headstock tilts downward, to put pressure on the nut to hold the strings in place. Ditto the fifth tuner. banjered

Jul 1, 2022 - 7:07:35 PM
Players Union Member

TN Time

USA

320 posts since 12/6/2021

Use a R.R. spike instead of a pip.

Robert

Jul 2, 2022 - 4:51:26 AM
like this

14765 posts since 6/29/2005

With a nut or pip, the groove that the string rides in must tilt to the back so the string breaks at the front end, ANY flatness can cause a buzz or twang.

I would cut the groove back at a greater angle.

Also a really light gauge string, like the 9.5 ga JD Crowe 5th will have a greater tendency to twang.  I always use 11 ga as 5th strings regardless of what the other strings are.

Jul 2, 2022 - 6:53:54 AM

kd8tzc

USA

392 posts since 4/11/2022

Thanks Ken. I did check the angle of the groove yesterday and I believe I recall you telling me when I installed this that it needed a tilt. It does have some, but maybe not enough. I'll take a look even thought he ringing is gone. I'm using a custom gauge set of 11 12 13 22 11, so I don't think it's too light. I really like this set of strings.

Jul 2, 2022 - 2:13:59 PM

banjonz

New Zealand

11478 posts since 6/29/2003

To my eye, the pip looks excessively high. To my knowledge, the pip should allow the string to sit above the fret wire at the same height as the other 4 strings do from the nut, or bend over the fret wire but using the pip as a guide only.

Jul 3, 2022 - 8:15:18 AM

thor363

USA

55 posts since 12/12/2021

I use 11's on 1 and 5, and just replaced the 5th pips on two of my banjo's. One of them was a ringing due to one of the custom bridges from 'W', which if you put the makers mark forward as is standard...the break angle position was incorrect. For some reason he cuts his feet with an opposite canter to what we would consider normal. As for the pip, you can change the angle of the slot and clean it up with some .0012 Mitchell abrasives polishing cord just be careful not to do more than gently clean up the debris. Brass eats that cord, but bone is fairly quick to clean up. Sounds like you have it sorted out though, good job.

Jul 4, 2022 - 9:32:41 AM

kd8tzc

USA

392 posts since 4/11/2022

quote:
Originally posted by thor363

I use 11's on 1 and 5, and just replaced the 5th pips on two of my banjo's. One of them was a ringing due to one of the custom bridges from 'W', which if you put the makers mark forward as is standard...the break angle position was incorrect. For some reason he cuts his feet with an opposite canter to what we would consider normal. As for the pip, you can change the angle of the slot and clean it up with some .0012 Mitchell abrasives polishing cord just be careful not to do more than gently clean up the debris. Brass eats that cord, but bone is fairly quick to clean up. Sounds like you have it sorted out though, good job.


Did you mean .012?  I don't see a .0012 and that would be extremely thin.  Ringing back today. 

Jul 4, 2022 - 11:27:20 AM

thor363

USA

55 posts since 12/12/2021

You're right, I had an extra zero in there.

.011 (11 thousands) is the string gauge I prefer on 1 and 5. I used a .010 hobby saw for the slot (and break angle), and the .012 Mitchell cord to clean it up and remove any burrs, along with a micro v file to clean up the slot ends.

The ringing I was getting was from the pip not having been properly filed at the outermost side. I had an appropriate break angle but once that was opened up with a v shaped micro-file, all is how it should be.

If yours is doing the same thing, it probably sounds some really odd east asian instrument and it really over-talks all other strings (not to mention IMHO becomes unpleasant and unplayable).

The work is much easier to do with a bone pip than a brass one IMHO. As for the cord, I meant this one actually:

amazon.com/gp/product/B0034G67...TF8&psc=1

Good luck!

Jul 8, 2022 - 3:29:48 PM

11 posts since 1/8/2008

I see two possible sources for your problem. 1) The pip is too high and there is not enough pressure (down) to keep the string pressing on the fifth fret (assuming you are using the fret as the starting point for the vibrating portion of the string. 2) If the string is not touching the fret, there is a good chance the slot in the pip is not angled down toward the rear (peghead). On all stringed instruments, the slots in the nut is cut lower in back than in the front so the string cannot vibrate in the slot. The pip is just a fifth string nut, so make sure the slot is deeper on the backside. also, be sure the slot is not to wide that the string could vibrate sideways in the slot.

Jul 9, 2022 - 8:53:45 AM

8 posts since 10/29/2010

I don't bother with pips at all. I just solder a 3/16th long piece of fret wire with the tang filed off on to the top of the fifth fret and cut the location notch in the appropriate place. I always angle the tuner as in previous posts.

Jul 9, 2022 - 9:00:36 AM

kd8tzc

USA

392 posts since 4/11/2022

Just so everyone is aware, I replaced the pip and made a new one out of brass. I took Ken’s advice as well as others and made sure that I angled the notch better and it seems to have resolved the issue. I also used a much thinner saw to cut it as well.

Hide these ads: join the Players Union!

Hangout Network Help

View All Topics  |  View Categories

0.28125