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Jun 30, 2022 - 2:39:51 PM

DWFII

USA

445 posts since 1/9/2022

I have a melody that begins with two eighth notes on the same string. I believe they are both melody notes so I am reluctant to drop one. I am trying to play this 2F index style. The rule is that one never plays two fast notes in succession with the same finger. So a possible solution might be to borrow from blue grass and play the second note with the middle finger.

In a similar vein I know there is such a thing as three finger old time  (no picks) but there seems to be some confusion in what I have read, a as to whether the right hand is anchored when this style is employed.

Beyond that if a person were to follow that particular rabbit (3 finger old time) down its hole, is there some convention as to when the middle finger would be called on or is it just comfort and/or impulse?

Jun 30, 2022 - 2:48:58 PM
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5509 posts since 5/9/2007

Perhaps a pull-off may be employed?

Jun 30, 2022 - 2:53:41 PM
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DWFII

USA

445 posts since 1/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by mrphysics55

Perhaps a pull-off may be employed?


Thank you.

I thought of that but both notes are G. third string un-fretted.

BTW (on edit) the song is in 3/4 time and the notes in question are part of a...what is it called? a first measure 'lead in'?...that includes an implied half (two count) rest just before the two eighth notes. So there's not even any room for 'ornamentation'.

Edited by - DWFII on 06/30/2022 15:02:15

Jun 30, 2022 - 3:00:20 PM

5509 posts since 5/9/2007

Dang!

Jun 30, 2022 - 3:04:41 PM
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1623 posts since 4/13/2009

Don't over-think it. Sometimes rules are broken - might depend on tempo. Other options: 1) thumb and index play the same string, )2) thumb and index sequentially play 4th string at fifth fret and 3rd string open.

Jun 30, 2022 - 4:08:41 PM

DWFII

USA

445 posts since 1/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by deestexas

Don't over-think it. Sometimes rules are broken - might depend on tempo. Other options: 1) thumb and index play the same string, )2) thumb and index sequentially play 4th string at fifth fret and 3rd string open.


This.

As I got to fooling with the middle finger this afternoon I realized that index and a drop thumb worked as well or better.

I am kind of... mildly...intrigued by the possibilities of adding in the middle finger ever-now-and-again, however.

Thank you.

Jun 30, 2022 - 5:19:22 PM
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79 posts since 1/7/2021

You can also left-hand pluck a string that you haven't fretted. Kind of a pull off without pulling off.

Though I think I'd also use the thumb for this.

But keep that third finger idea in mind. Nothing wrong with it.

Appropriate disclosure: I'm also a newbie, so take this all with a grain of salt.

Edited by - A Drum On A Stick on 06/30/2022 17:19:59

Jun 30, 2022 - 5:46:07 PM
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8415 posts since 3/17/2005

Easy. Pick the first note with the right hand and then puck the open string again with a finger of the left hand. It's a common technique and is done all the time. Alternate string pull off or ASPO.

Jun 30, 2022 - 7:54:39 PM
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DWFII

USA

445 posts since 1/9/2022

Thank you both. I have been practicing the index/thumb sequence and it works fine. but I have also been trying the ASPO and I like it too. It's a revelation if nothing else--I learned something new. Thanks again.

Jul 1, 2022 - 3:15:06 AM

4181 posts since 4/29/2012

An ASPO where the 2 notes are both the open 3rd string is a bit clumsy, as it's not an actual pull-off (and not on an alternative string) but a definite pluck. I also avoid plucking 2 successive notes on the same string. Would sounding the second of these two G notes using your thumb on string 4, fret 5 (assuming G tuning) work here ? Knowing what the tune is (or seeing the actual music ) would help.

Edited by - AndrewD on 07/01/2022 03:16:05

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Jul 1, 2022 - 8:46:36 AM

8415 posts since 3/17/2005

Lots of players strike a string, ASPO on the 1st string (pa), strike the 1st string (dit) and thumb the 5th. with IL 2-finger picking. I do that very often and not just on the 1st string.

Jul 1, 2022 - 10:54:25 AM

426 posts since 12/30/2012

these suggestions are all good methods to achieve to same "note". So this leaves a question,how will you approach it? the difference will be in the final "sound "of the note. one method will give you a punch and others ,like a pull off will be softer, or more subtle. So it may come down to nuance,and how you want the sound to"feel". Also rules are meant to be broken. haha your enthusiasm is inspirational!

Jul 2, 2022 - 5:17:58 AM

8415 posts since 3/17/2005

Rick Baskowski I'm nit picking here ... A real ASPO is not actually a pull off. It is a pluck with the left hand. It can be done with plenty of volume. :-)

Edited by - chip arnold on 07/02/2022 05:18:24

Jul 2, 2022 - 5:34:24 AM

6133 posts since 3/11/2006

PO’s and ASPO’s are strong techniques and (at least the way I play it), integral to the style.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat, and in CH, leaving notes out is sometimes an option.

Though you say the notes are indispensable, it’s hard to advise without knowing more.

What tune are we talking about anyway?

Jul 2, 2022 - 6:04:46 AM

DWFII

USA

445 posts since 1/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

PO’s and ASPO’s are strong techniques and (at least the way I play it), integral to the style.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat, and in CH, leaving notes out is sometimes an option.

Though you say the notes are indispensable, it’s hard to advise without knowing more.

What tune are we talking about anyway?


 

Well, I kinda became obsessed some small time ago, with Utah Phillip's Rocksalt and Nails. So I set out to transpose it from the original key of C to G (G because I could play it).

At the same time I am trying to learn an new software--Musescore3.

So, here is a pdf of the first little bit. My intention is/was to get the essential melody down, in both standard notation and tab, and then eventually start riffing off the tab.

I got hung up after a little bit because there were things about the way Musescore was rendering the tab that i wanted to change.

I say the notes are indispensable because it is fundamentally a melody line, and the first two notes correspond to words in the song and because the time signature prevents these two eighth notes from becoming something else... at least in my limited understanding.

The two notes in the first measure correspond to the words "On the " and the words in the second measure correspond to "banks of the", third and fourth measures cover the word "river"........

Eventually the tablature in the second measure will be bum-ditty-ditty, or something like it,  and similarly throughout the rest of the piece.  But, again, all I want for the time being is the melody line.

Does any of this make sense?


Edited by - DWFII on 07/02/2022 06:06:54

Jul 2, 2022 - 7:01:11 AM
Players Union Member

janolov

Sweden

41736 posts since 3/7/2006

When playing on the banjo I would forget about the two 1/8 note and just play one 1/4 note. 

Jul 2, 2022 - 7:54:34 AM

DWFII

USA

445 posts since 1/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by janolov

When playing on the banjo I would forget about the two 1/8 note and just play one 1/4 note. 


Which raises another question I'm still not easy with--sustain. If you play a quarter note there it doesn't really sustain long enough to cover two words. IMO.

In the third and fourth measure, a quarter and a half note and a dotted half note are tied to cover the word "river" but the banjo doesn't sustain long enough to do tht.  In an electric piano it sounds fine. 

I am labouring under the impression (maybe mistaken) that one of the reasons/advantages of bum-ditties and pinches and brushes is to extend the feeling of a sustain and thus preserve the rhythm and sense of the melody. ??

Jul 2, 2022 - 8:18:17 AM
Players Union Member

janolov

Sweden

41736 posts since 3/7/2006

In my opinion you don't have to catch every single note of a melody. Try to make it it as easy as possible.

If you absolutely want to play two 1/8 notes, I think the right thing for you is to first play index and then thumb on the third string.

Jul 2, 2022 - 8:50:01 AM

6133 posts since 3/11/2006

I’m with Jan.
The two G’s are “pick-up” notes- they just lead into the melody.

The second G could maybe be an open 5th string or play open 3rd with your index and 4th string at the 5th fret with yout thumb. You could even sub a different note for the 2nd G that works melodically.

Wait until you start arranging fiddle tunes for banjo. Unless you become a melodic player, simplification and substitution are the name of the game. 

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 07/02/2022 08:53:05

Jul 2, 2022 - 9:03:45 AM

DWFII

USA

445 posts since 1/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by janolov

In my opinion you don't have to catch every single note of a melody. Try to make it it as easy as possible.

If you absolutely want to play two 1/8 notes, I think the right thing for you is to first play index and then thumb on the third string.


That's what I'm happiest with for now. I am such a rank beginner...at all of this...that the melody is paramount for me. And 'covering' the words seems important.

Thank you Jan and Rd...and everyone who offered advice. I'm learning....

Jul 2, 2022 - 11:15:12 AM

6133 posts since 3/11/2006

If I may, I’d suggest getting ahold of some tabs of songs *you are familiar with* to get a handle on how tunes are arranged for the banjo.

That way you’ll have an idea of how to arrange your own stuff within the parameters of the style later on.

Jul 2, 2022 - 11:32:07 AM

DWFII

USA

445 posts since 1/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

If I may, I’d suggest getting ahold of some tabs of songs *you are familiar with* to get a handle on how tunes are arranged for the banjo.

That way you’ll have an idea of how to arrange your own stuff within the parameters of the style later on.


That's a good idea...but, I can't tell you how many hours I've spent scouring the internet search engines for "two-finger index lead banjo tablature" or "2FIL banjo tabs", etc.. And most of the time when I get 'hits' they turn out to be BG or thumb lead. I have a book I am leaning from by Sebastian Schroeder, It just hit's all the right buttons for me. And it has a few (10) songs in it in various tunings. But tbh.I don't recognize most of them.

Schroeder was, IIRC, going to offer mp3s (i can't find them) and was, purportedly talking about releasing a book of tabs but it ain't happened yet. Great teacher, but I wonder what happened to him.

In any case there really doesn't seem to be much out there for 2FIL... or maybe I'm just a dumb auld bootmaker looking in all the wrong places.

Jul 2, 2022 - 12:39:17 PM

360 posts since 4/10/2018

I believe that you can find old time finger style banjo from Art Rosenbaum, Bob Carlin, Don Borshelt, Chip Arnold, Bill Evans, Pete Seeger, Mike Seeger, Matt Brown, Aaron Keim, Banjo Lemonade, Dick Sheridan, Clifton Hicks, Josh Turknett, Nick Hornbuckle, and many old timers. There may not be a lot of tabs in part because it’s an aural tradition. So it’s useful to listen via YouTube to banjo players and fiddlers. There are various videos on how to learn tunes by listening that will help you out. Matt Brown and Josh Turknett have teaching sites with some free material and some paid. Some of the above have books and cd’s or mp3s or videos.

Jul 2, 2022 - 2:49:42 PM

DWFII

USA

445 posts since 1/9/2022

quote:
Originally posted by paco0909

I believe that you can find old time finger style banjo from Art Rosenbaum, Bob Carlin, Don Borshelt, Chip Arnold, Bill Evans, Pete Seeger, Mike Seeger, Matt Brown, Aaron Keim, Banjo Lemonade, Dick Sheridan, Clifton Hicks, Josh Turknett, Nick Hornbuckle, and many old timers. There may not be a lot of tabs in part because it’s an aural tradition. So it’s useful to listen via YouTube to banjo players and fiddlers. There are various videos on how to learn tunes by listening that will help you out. Matt Brown and Josh Turknett have teaching sites with some free material and some paid. Some of the above have books and cd’s or mp3s or videos.


Thank you.

I don't know, or know of, everyone on your list. The ones I do know I admire.  AFAIK, Chip Arnold is one of the few that focuses on index lead, however. I'm already in the same age bracket as him so it's pretty silly to say "I want to be him when I grow up." But I admire him and his playing and feel a sense of gratitude for the insights he has offered here.

Eventually I want to work my way into thumb lead and there's plenty of that out there... or so it seems. But, just as a general rule, I suspect it is better to get a handle on one style before moving on to another regardless of how related or similar they are.

Jul 2, 2022 - 3:32:59 PM

964 posts since 3/23/2006

True. Your improving left hand skills will serve you well as you decide you want to explore more styles. Getting comfortable with one style -- your choice -- will serve you well.

Jul 2, 2022 - 8:54:30 PM

6133 posts since 3/11/2006

Seems like I heard somewhere that CH tabs are the same or similar to 2FIL. If true, there are a ton of tabs out there for you to use.

CH afterall is a two- finger index lead style. The only difference is down with the index instead of up.

I defer to those more knowledgeable than myself on this.

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