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Jun 29, 2022 - 12:50:22 PM
303 posts since 9/19/2014

Hey all,
"In The Gravel Yard" from what I am seeing on YouTube and on Tef File it starts in F. When we play it in a jam they play it in G. Can I play a F chord/lick instead of the G?

I know this may be theory related also, but, oops sorry about that bad word, however, can that be done?
Advice and maybe an example would be helpful.

I think it can be done as I do see C and D licks interchangeable where a G can be used.

Jun 29, 2022 - 1:03:27 PM

2001 posts since 2/10/2003

If the version you learned is in F and the jam plays it in G, capo 2 and play like you would in F. You can’t play in the key of F if everyone else is playing in the key of G.

Jun 29, 2022 - 1:16:52 PM

USAF PJ

USA

303 posts since 9/19/2014

Thanks & understood, but what about substituting licks? I am not talking about the key it is played in.

Jun 29, 2022 - 1:29:26 PM

chuckv97

Canada

65057 posts since 10/5/2013

That’s a modal tune so a lick with C and F notes will work at the right places. Not sure which F lick you’re referring to, though. Thanks for posting.

Jun 29, 2022 - 1:36:59 PM

2001 posts since 2/10/2003

quote:
Originally posted by USAF PJ

Thanks & understood, but what about substituting licks? I am not talking about the key it is played in.


Depends on the notes of the lick and the scale it is based on and the underlying harmony.   

Jun 29, 2022 - 1:45:48 PM
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13436 posts since 6/2/2008

What do you mean by "starts in F"? In the key of F? On an F chord? Or on an F note?

If it's the latter (F note) and the chord in your tab is G then all that's happening is the melody is on the "flat seven" note and therefore turning the sound of the G chord into a G7 -- or G dominant 7.

As already said above, some consider this a modal tune. I simply hear it as a bluesy sounding tune, so the flat third (B flat) and flat 7 (F natural) will sound correct and cool when when played against the G chord (as the one) and also against the D chord in a five-to-one transition or cadence.

I'm writing this away from my banjo, so I could be totally wrong about the opening in that song.

But I have to say that "starts in F" is only correct musical language if you literally mean it starts in the key of F. Otherwise the correct phrase is "starts ON F" if you're referring to a chord or note with the song in another key.

I'm not being nit picky. To get the correct answer you have to ask the correct question.

Jun 29, 2022 - 1:56:32 PM
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7848 posts since 8/30/2004

This is about nothing unusual for Bluegrass. G tuning and capoed up...Jack

Banjo Newsletter - Kick-off to Jason Burleson's In The Gravel Yard

Edited by - Jack Baker on 06/29/2022 13:57:29

Jun 29, 2022 - 2:16:57 PM

202 posts since 11/2/2009

Rip the YouTube video in F. Strip the audio to mp3. Download to Anytune. Raise the key two half-tones so it’s in G like your jam. Play your F lick over it. You may need to tweak it. As noted above, your Fchord will have, as to the scale of the song now in G, flat sevens on the 4th and first strings, the 2 on the third string, and the 4 on the second string. And you have to watch what is happening to the melody notes of the song.

Or just play your F lick over any song in G and see what happens.

Edited by - gcpicken on 06/29/2022 14:27:35

Jun 29, 2022 - 3:03:40 PM

13436 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Baker

This is about nothing unusual for Bluegrass. G tuning and capoed up...Jack

Banjo Newsletter - Kick-off to Jason Burleson's In The Gravel Yard


Well, here's something that will confuse the heck out someone not clear on keys, chords and capos.

The tab and audio file linked within it at BNL (subscription required to see the tab) are in B. The tab is written as if in G, so capo 4 for B. No problem.

But the performance in the video linked in the accompanying article is in A! Banjo plays the exact same way, but capo instead at 2.

Further complicating things for the uninitiated: One of the tabs here on the Hangout (again, written as if in G so capo required) shows the second chord as an F instead of a C. That probably works and probably reflects either someone's hearing or their reharmonized version. F there sounds OK to me since the several versions I've looked show the first string open or at 3 in that section, with the second string at 3 or 1.  The banjo is playing bluesy sounding stuff, not C-majorish sounding stuff. Definitely staying away from the E note on 1st string 2nd fret.

Anyway, no video or tab I've seen in my quick search "starts in F." Most people seem to play the song in B, probably because Doyle Lawson's version is accepted as the way it goes.

An "F" lick will work here as long as it doesn't use the A note at 3rd string 2nd fret. Either play B-flat (3rd at 3) or don't play the 3rd string. Not necessarily an F lick. More of a G blues lick, I think.

Jun 29, 2022 - 4:57:48 PM
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7848 posts since 8/30/2004

It's always tricky to figure out what people want on BHO. Most of them are very beginners but always choose very advanced tunes. Kinda funny to me since I'm sure I must have done the same thing when I was just starting....Jack

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Jun 29, 2022 - 8:59:56 PM

247 posts since 7/22/2012

quote:
Originally posted by USAF PJ

Hey all,
"In The Gravel Yard" from what I am seeing on YouTube and on Tef File it starts in F. When we play it in a jam they play it in G. Can I play a F chord/lick instead of the G?

I know this may be theory related also, but, oops sorry about that bad word, however, can that be done?
Advice and maybe an example would be helpful.

I think it can be done as I do see C and D licks interchangeable where a G can be used.


Let me tell you, maybe more useful answers above in some ways, but... Can it be done? Can something be played against something else? Bottom line (generally speaking): If it sounds "good," yes. If it sounds "bad," no. Now, in this specific case, does it sound good? You have to hear what you are playing and what they are playing and hear how they relate to one another. It is very good practice to work on trying to be able to hear what works musically, for yourself, on the fly. But this can be hard without a lot of experience, of course. Very important to try to work on developing one's musical ear, though. As for learning a "road ready" version of the tune in advance, hopefully the answer you need has been given, such as by Jack or others, above. Or will be forthcoming!

Edited by - Banjfoot on 06/29/2022 21:01:53

Jun 30, 2022 - 6:06:30 AM
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76408 posts since 5/9/2007

An F chord can be used like a "fancy" G7 in the key of G as can a Dm,imo.

Jun 30, 2022 - 6:41:49 AM

7848 posts since 8/30/2004

Steve,
I just don't get all this analysis over a simple break like Jason's....What am I missing?...Jack

Jun 30, 2022 - 8:07:04 AM
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4030 posts since 9/12/2016

my own opinion I ask no one to agree -and hope I don't make someone mad
in the right place and if the right size ==any note can be played --taste makes correctness vary--
for long lingering notes --ones that are in close harmony are the safe choice ,,these would be the chord notes of the chord being played by others--these add no other feelings to the music===adding other notes in this setting adds emotions such as blues -sadness---humor etc.
when it comes to little short non emphasized stepping stone notes (passing tones)anything can be played --since it has no time to be certified as wrong--

Edited by - Tractor1 on 06/30/2022 08:08:04

Jun 30, 2022 - 8:48:31 AM
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247 posts since 7/22/2012

The question I was trying to touch on is whether something "can" be done, musically, more generally. My basic thought, that working on the core skill of hearing whether something is working well within a musical context, compared to other options, on the fly, is something good to spend some time focusing on. Then a person can answer a lot of questions like this, for themselves, instantly.

Like Tractor suggested, a whole lot of things (notes, chords, etc.) can work if done in just the right way/according to taste. F chord against G does have an obviously nice sound sometimes, looks like Steve said it can work for G7... Give it a try! The musical context is important as for when to throw things in.

I, myself, am not an expert on Gravel Yard and will have to throw an F in next time it comes up in a jam and see how I like it ;]

Edited by - Banjfoot on 06/30/2022 08:50:23

Jun 30, 2022 - 10:04:29 AM

76408 posts since 5/9/2007

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Baker

Steve,
I just don't get all this analysis over a simple break like Jason's....What am I missing?...Jack


I saw it as a simpler "Can F be used instead of a G" type of thing.

I'm only talking about what things sound like.I wouldn't know how to analyze it.Bill Keith showed how to use a Dm on top of a G which is very similar to an F.

Jun 30, 2022 - 10:27:54 AM

7848 posts since 8/30/2004

Ok

Jun 30, 2022 - 10:30:38 AM

USAF PJ

USA

303 posts since 9/19/2014

Thanks for the feedback. Ken, versions online start w/ an F chord/lick. Steve, you are correct, I was hoping to keep it simple. I was learning the tune from the Tef file given on BHO and watching online and breaking it down. Then I get to a jam and it is played in open G. Thus my question, could I open up the song w/ an F lick?

Jun 30, 2022 - 1:15:27 PM
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13436 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by USAF PJ

Thanks for the feedback. Ken, versions online start w/ an F chord/lick.  . . . Then I get to a jam and it is played in open G. Thus my question, could I open up the song w/ an F lick?


What I think is happening is it's starting on a bluesy lick as pick-up notes (partial measure) before the first downbeat of the actual melody line (either the first line of a sung verse or first line of an instrumental solo).

As a bluesy lick, it's either over a G with a flat 7 note (F) in it. Or it could be as you describe, an actual F chord, also flat 7.  I don't hear that happening. But even if it is, it's just a musical choice that provides an interesting way to lead into the starting line of the song on a G chord -- either open or capoed. I'm talking "virtual." You're playing "as if" in G.

I don't hear the first line of melody being sung or played over an F chord -- or the flat 7 for whatever key anyone's playing. I do hear it as sort of bluesy and modal. And this goe back to my original post. You can play licks that have F and C notes against a G chord in a bluesy/modal context. Stay away from the B note and choose B-flat instead.

If you're talking about the actual first measure melody starting on F, you're going to have to point me to a tab and recording where that's happening because I simply don't hear it that way. And I don't know what your "F lick" actually consists of.

Jun 30, 2022 - 3:07:37 PM
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7848 posts since 8/30/2004

Ha! good luck Ken. BHO is way over/past my head now...too much going on and it takes all of my time up if I let it...Jack

Jun 30, 2022 - 3:41:12 PM

USAF PJ

USA

303 posts since 9/19/2014

Thanks Ken, I definitely may be wrong but I am going to get back w/ what I think I saw both on tab and video.

youtube.com/watch?v=LXucxIddD0A
 

Edited by - USAF PJ on 06/30/2022 15:41:31

Jun 30, 2022 - 6:05:55 PM
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2001 posts since 2/10/2003

quote:
Originally posted by USAF PJ

Thanks Ken, I definitely may be wrong but I am going to get back w/ what I think I saw both on tab and video.

youtube.com/watch?v=LXucxIddD0A
 


That version has no F chord or F lick for that matter. Standard I, IV and V chords. how he is playing it is in G and uses G, C, D chords. 

Jun 30, 2022 - 6:13:07 PM

2001 posts since 2/10/2003

While we are on Gravel Yard. Are the lyrics:

Making little rocks outa bigger rocks

Or

Making big rocks into little rocks

I believe I have heard it sung both ways.

Jun 30, 2022 - 6:36:54 PM
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13436 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by USAF PJ

I definitely may be wrong but I am going to get back w/ what I think I saw both on tab and video.
youtube.com/watch?v=LXucxIddD0A


Yes, you're definitely wrong. cheeky

Not only is that not an F chord or F lick, it's exactly what I (and I others) have been saying. It's a G blues lick. Or modal sounding lick. That's where the F note - flatted 7 - comes from. He's making lots of use of flatted 3rd (B flat) and flatted 7 notes.

Here's an easy way to explore these sounds: Plant your index finger on 2nd string 1st fret. You will not lift it all. You do not want to play the 2nd string open. The only other notes you will play are 4th, 3rd and 1st strings open and 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st at 3rd fret. You can hammer open strings to 3rd fret, hammer 2nd string 1st fret to 3rd fret, or pull-off any 3rd fret note to any allowed note. Now, start rolling. Any roll. Any pattern. Mix it up. But play only the allowed notes described above.

Enjoy the cool bluesy sound. When you find sequences that appeal to you, try to repeat them and memorize them.

Bluesy playing isn't limited to these notes, of course. But this is a good way to discover the sounds. There's plenty of time for more advanced and complex licks.

Bonus: This is also an easy way to play against a B-flat chord in G tuning without a capo. Actually, since these notes are the B-flat pentatonic scale, you could use this exercise to play an entire solo to many songs in B-flat.

Final point, related to this discussion as a whole: A note being played at any one time does not necessarily identify or even point to the chord being played. Corollary to this: The three or four notes of the current chord are not the only notes that a lead or backup instrument can be playing at any one time. Melodies also are not limited to the notes of the current chord.

Jul 1, 2022 - 6:02:14 AM

7848 posts since 8/30/2004

It's just a lick. 20 more threads?....Way over my head anymore. I just don't get it with these long posts about nothing... Why do people need so much attention? Post good tabs instead--this is bizarre to me over a simple little lick....J

Edited by - Jack Baker on 07/01/2022 06:03:36

Jul 1, 2022 - 6:25:32 AM

7848 posts since 8/30/2004

Play with this fun song by Earl instead. Don't analyze it to death, just play the dang thing...Jack  p.s. This is not from a youtube. It didn't exist when I tabbed this one...

Coal Miner Blues

Edited by - Jack Baker on 07/01/2022 06:27:44

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