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Jun 29, 2022 - 2:15:44 AM

m06

England

11272 posts since 10/5/2006

I’m curious to read folks describe their understanding of the concept, purpose and consequence of shame.

And whether you consider that concept and purpose relevant to the way you live your life?

Jun 29, 2022 - 2:24:03 AM
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4729 posts since 12/6/2009

eh?

Jun 29, 2022 - 2:39:37 AM
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m06

England

11272 posts since 10/5/2006

quote:
Originally posted by overhere

eh?


Healthy shame is a perception through which we are enabled to learn humility and what are appropriate boundaries.

Without at least a basic sense of healthy shame we are incapable of understanding and managing the effect of our behaviour on others.

Edited by - m06 on 06/29/2022 02:42:59

Jun 29, 2022 - 3:04:17 AM

STUD

USA

36094 posts since 3/5/2008

Who decides what healthy shame is..?

Jun 29, 2022 - 5:36 AM
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KCJones

USA

1761 posts since 8/30/2012

Mike you can be entertaining sometimes but I've gotta say you need to find a good pub where you can have discussions like this.

Jun 29, 2022 - 5:58:09 AM
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m06

England

11272 posts since 10/5/2006

quote:
Originally posted by KCJones

Mike you can be entertaining sometimes but I've gotta say you need to find a good pub where you can have discussions like this.


Great timing. I'll be in the pub pictured below this evening for our local OT session night and you're very welcome to join us. Officially named The Black Horse* but it's known locally as 'the kicker', just ask and anyone around here will point you in the right direction.  I'll put a pint on the bar for you...wink

 

* - before it was a pub it was the village lock-up where they used to incarcerate miscreants and vagabonds. Not sure if that's a historic connection to our OT session?


 

Edited by - m06 on 06/29/2022 06:05:25

Jun 29, 2022 - 6:11:44 AM
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KCJones

USA

1761 posts since 8/30/2012

Oh man, if only. I would absolutely love to join you. I love our taverns, but your pubs are unmatched.

Jun 29, 2022 - 6:14:46 AM

Owen

Canada

11408 posts since 6/5/2011

I "wonder" about many things, but when it comes to philosophizing, I generally don't get too deeply engaged/embroiled.  It probably doesn't explain much, but I see shame as a bit of balance for pride.... i.e. a factor in maintaining an even keel.

The most apparent/widespread purpose/consequence in recent times seems to me to be to create/maintain division within society.... one person/group elevating [cough, hack, cough, splutter] itself by putting another person/group down ... "I'm right and you're an idiot" to one degree or another. 

.... and now I'm now pretty much "philosophized out" on the subject. sad

Jun 29, 2022 - 6:51:41 AM

m06

England

11272 posts since 10/5/2006

Owen, I don’t think my OP is a philosophy question. Or particularly deep or complicated.

Shame is a human emotional response. But actual occurrence seems to be getting rarer. I’m starting to wonder if there are private clinics short-circuiting that part of people’s brains on request like some sort of neuro-vasectomy procedure? Patients who've had this psychological snip then get to behave appallingly while shooting emotional blanks. A complete inability to identify or acknowledge wrongdoing and the brazen shamelessness to claim bad is good. indecision
 

Edited by - m06 on 06/29/2022 07:04:45

Jun 29, 2022 - 7:32:07 AM
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2442 posts since 2/4/2013

Some people have no shame. generally these people are the ones who don't understand the concept. They are unable to see anything they do in negative terms or see the negative effect it has on others. They go around oblivious to such ideas. To understand such things is healthy shame. Unhealthy shame is when you feel shame when there is no fault in anything you have done.

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Jun 29, 2022 - 7:35:23 AM
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kww

USA

1751 posts since 6/21/2008
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quote:
Originally posted by m06

I’m curious to read folks describe their understanding of the concept, purpose and consequence of shame.

And whether you consider that concept and purpose relevant to the way you live your life?


I feel shame whenever my behaviour falls short of what I consider to be my minimum standards. I would hope that isn't an unusual response.

Edited by - kww on 06/29/2022 07:41:37

Jun 29, 2022 - 8:27:39 AM

76448 posts since 5/9/2007

Shame is a kissing cousin of regret.

Jun 29, 2022 - 8:51:34 AM
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m06

England

11272 posts since 10/5/2006

If I was kissing my cousin I would feel shame. Eventually.

Edited by - m06 on 06/29/2022 08:52:46

Jun 29, 2022 - 11:19:07 AM

Owen

Canada

11408 posts since 6/5/2011

Now Mike, about this ^^ cousin of yours: ...  male?  ... female? ... other?   

IF my circumstances were different [i.e. not the married old(er) man that I am] would I be likely to feel shame from kissing your cousin?  cheeky

Jun 29, 2022 - 11:24:48 AM

kww

USA

1751 posts since 6/21/2008
Online Now

Cousins do much more than kiss. Studies show that breeding between third cousins generates more children that live longer.

Scientific American: When Incest is Best: Kissing Cousins Have More Kin

Jun 29, 2022 - 11:40 AM

chuckv97

Canada

65190 posts since 10/5/2013

Some people have no conscience, or it’s buried deep under anger and hatred, so they feel no shame.
Others have felt shame for years because they were born being attracted to the same sex.
Still others became mired in shame because they were sexually abused as youngsters.

Jun 29, 2022 - 12:39:49 PM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

12363 posts since 2/22/2007

Merriam Webster---"Synonyms: Noun
contriteness, contrition, guilt, penitence, regret, remorse, remorsefulness, repentance, rue, self-reproach

Synonyms: Verb
abase, chasten, cheapen, debase, degrade, demean, discredit, disgrace, dishonor, foul, humble, humiliate, lower, sink, smirch, take down"

As a noun it appears that shame is what is felt by the individual, and as a verb the shame is directed at others.

So, should those who degrade, demean, and discredit others feel any contrition, guilt, or self reproach?

Jun 29, 2022 - 1:56:06 PM
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76448 posts since 5/9/2007

Some people feel that they are never wrong or ever wrong anyone else.
They should be ashamed of themselves!

Jun 29, 2022 - 4:00:07 PM
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RV6

USA

1465 posts since 2/3/2012

quote:
Originally posted by m06

I’m curious to read folks describe their understanding of the concept, purpose and consequence of shame.

And whether you consider that concept and purpose relevant to the way you live your life?


Yeah, I'd say that the aspect of shame pretty well shaped my life and most anyone else born around 1947 in the Midwest USA where I grew up.   I was raised to always tell the truth, be honest in all of your dealings (personal or business), do your best, keep your word, don't lie, cheat, steal or hurt people.    I grew up being raised by parents who instilled the value of being a good citizen and I would never do anything that would shame them or me.   My folks are long gone and I'm 75years old.   I would still never do anything that would shame myself or my folks.   My two daughter's were raised the same way and are wonderful examples of outstanding human beings and we couldn't be prouder about how they turned out.

I would have preferred a "whipping" from my dad rather than have him say, "Bob, I've never been so disappointed in you as I am now for what you did".   (My dad didn't whip but he had a very thick, oak yardstick that my butt met several times when I was a kid.  Not the cheap, pine sticks of today.  After a few wacks, I got "my mind right".   He'd probably be jailed now.)

Jun 29, 2022 - 4:00:30 PM

4729 posts since 12/6/2009

like I always say.....eh?

Jun 29, 2022 - 4:38:18 PM

donc

Canada

6983 posts since 2/9/2010

When I went to school shame was an easy way out for the incompetent teacher. If they could not get through to everyone they would resort to inflicting shame on those who didn't quickly get it. Shame is painful just like physical pain.
It is not deserved by someone who has unintentionally responded with a wrong answer. That feeling of shame was to induce a young person to instantly know algebra , chemistry, or some other low priority item. I can't say that I've ever seen those exact results where shame produces significant learning. Inflicting shame for no valid reason is a form of abuse in my underachieving opinion. People who inflict shame unfortunately show up in other work place situations. Today we call it bullying or workplace abuse.

Jun 29, 2022 - 5:00:57 PM

Owen

Canada

11408 posts since 6/5/2011

Fair enough Don, but who gets to decide what is/isn't a "valid" reason?  I think I've seen more than a lifetime's normal allotment of INvalid reasons during the past couple of years or so... an a-w-f-u-l  l-o-t of it based on what seems to me to be, "depends who's ox is being gored," and, "I'm right and you're an idiot."

Edited by - Owen on 06/29/2022 17:02:02

Jun 29, 2022 - 5:05:44 PM

csrat

USA

1152 posts since 9/14/2008

quote:
Originally posted by m06
quote:
Originally posted by KCJones

Mike you can be entertaining sometimes but I've gotta say you need to find a good pub where you can have discussions like this.


Great timing. I'll be in the pub pictured below this evening for our local OT session night and you're very welcome to join us. Officially named The Black Horse* but it's known locally as 'the kicker', just ask and anyone around here will point you in the right direction.  I'll put a pint on the bar for you...wink

 

* - before it was a pub it was the village lock-up where they used to incarcerate miscreants and vagabonds. Not sure if that's a historic connection to our OT session?


That is a great picture. I'd be happy to go someplace like that and tip a few.

As to what Bill-e said, someone can try to shame you, but if you feel you've not done anything shameful, that won't work. People trying to shame others are often trying to influence how others think about you, or if done privately, manipulate you.

Feeling ashamed  means you believe you've done something wrong. That can happen even if no one else knows of it. I think shame is a part of our personal compass that gets set relatively early in life. There's an obscure, Latin phrase that says, loosely, "The grape gets it's mottling/markings from looking at other grapes." This is a good question you've posted. I believe an attempt to do it true justice in a forum like this is nearly impossible, but here's my brief touch on the subject. I think shame's purpose is to prevent us from violating cultural conventions, maybe a better term, the social contract.  

Some don't feel shame because their brain doesn't function typically. Psychopaths don't feel shame because that's not a function they possess. Many people adopt a frequently sold idea that no one should feel shame, because right and wrong are human constructs. Then others go with another notion that no one has the right to shame another person, even if the accused acknowledges the concept of right and wrong. That's the one that stymies me.

Jun 29, 2022 - 6:52:13 PM
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donc

Canada

6983 posts since 2/9/2010

I recall a couple of childhood situations where the teacher should have chosen a career far away from other people. On one occasion we were in a grade 5 gym class. The teacher lined up about 6 of the heaviest kids and told us that without physical activity we could all end up looking like "these" guys. In another situation [same class] we had a student teacher. He must have been away they day they lectured them about children with learning disabilities. Stuart was an older boy who had been detained twice by that year. He had a nervous condition like C.P. whereby he would continually make a slight bowing motion when he stood still. The young wannabe teacher spoke up and said " What's the matter with you" ? At that moment the regular teacher took him aside and engaged in a very quick lesson. Bullying is something fairly new to the adult workplace vocabulary. Most adults have learned to accept quiet criticism especially if we are new to a job. We make mistakes. We get corrected and eventually the mistakes become fewer and fewer. That's how civil adults in a civil environment conduct themselves.

Jun 30, 2022 - 4:33:38 AM
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STUD

USA

36094 posts since 3/5/2008

Sometimes shame or the lack of shame comes from point of view ...

Shame may be used just to try to make people ...comply..

Edited by - STUD on 06/30/2022 04:36:12

Jun 30, 2022 - 8:57:09 AM
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m06

England

11272 posts since 10/5/2006

quote:
Originally posted by donc

When I went to school shame was an easy way out for the incompetent teacher. If they could not get through to everyone they would resort to inflicting shame on those who didn't quickly get it. Shame is painful just like physical pain.
It is not deserved by someone who has unintentionally responded with a wrong answer. That feeling of shame was to induce a young person to instantly know algebra , chemistry, or some other low priority item. I can't say that I've ever seen those exact results where shame produces significant learning. Inflicting shame for no valid reason is a form of abuse in my underachieving opinion. People who inflict shame unfortunately show up in other work place situations. Today we call it bullying or workplace abuse.


I had some great teachers at school but also one or two just like you describe. They used humiliation as a way of controlling their class. Even as a 12 year old I sensed it was wrong even though I couldn't explain exactly what it was they were doing. Now with the benefit of adult experience I can see it for what it was. Why they ever went into teaching as a career is a mystery. I got caned across both hands for standing up to one of these humiliator-incompetent teachers. The teacher attempted to humiliate me; I felt no shame whatsoever for standing up to him. 

Humiliation is different than shame. We feel the sting of shame when we know we have behaved badly. But we can be humiliated when we have done nothing wrong.

Edited by - m06 on 06/30/2022 08:59:09

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