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Jun 24, 2022 - 11:19:06 AM
45 posts since 3/5/2007

I have a 1910 Supertone Sears catalogue banjo that needs a new neck. I have the neck but I need to install a dowel stick into it. My plan is to use the original stick but to do that I need to remove the stick from the old neck. I’m guessing that the makers probably used hide glue in that era but I suppose they might have used some other glue.

I could really use some advice on how to make the old glue let go so that I can use the old dowel stick on the new neck. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Or should I just make a new dowel stick?

Jun 24, 2022 - 11:42:09 AM

47 posts since 8/13/2021

I would use the one you have to make a duplicate, then with measurements and photo reference, you have a replacement should removal not be successful. Try to introduce some steam to soften the glue, and remove slow (increments) to judge by feel how it is responding. Patience, and good luck.. kb

Jun 24, 2022 - 11:54:07 AM

47 posts since 8/13/2021

Just completed this one last week. Flea-market project..!


 

Jun 24, 2022 - 11:58:52 AM

4437 posts since 10/13/2005

If the old neck is shot why not take a chain saw to it and extricate the dowel? Well, you get the idea... banjered

Jun 24, 2022 - 12:49:37 PM

5507 posts since 5/9/2007
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Steam will help protect the dowel from splintering.

Jun 24, 2022 - 12:55:13 PM
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mbanza

USA

2496 posts since 9/16/2007

I have done this with un-salvageable necks: Cut the neck off about where the tip of the heel is, make certain all metal has been removed, put it in your microwave (if it will fit) for about 15 seconds and it should come out easily.

Jun 24, 2022 - 1:13:41 PM

4437 posts since 10/13/2005

Wow! What a great idea! NUKE IT! Chainsaws are old hat. banjered

Jun 24, 2022 - 1:47:15 PM

talespinner

Canada

45 posts since 3/5/2007

Thanks for all the suggestions. I especially like the one about the chainsaw.

Jun 24, 2022 - 1:59:47 PM

talespinner

Canada

45 posts since 3/5/2007

I got this as a kind of a novelty. Someone drilled a new hole in the rim to relocate the dowel stick. I don’t think it helped much because it hasn’t ever been a good player since I’ve had it. I got a new neck years ago for a project that never made it beyond the planning stage, so I figure if I put the two things together I might get a fairly nice little player. I looked at the Sears catalogue for 1910 and this was near their top of the line — and it was still a fair bit below 10 dollars. Nice little spun over rim and I put on a set of matching hooks I got from Bob Flesher. You wouldn’t believe the assortment of hooks it had when I got it.

Jun 24, 2022 - 3:07:26 PM

Bill H

USA

1935 posts since 11/7/2010

A few years ago someone posted a method to remove dowel sticks safely and easily with steam. You could probably find it in the archives. It was done with a basketball air needle inserted into a small hole drilled up beside the dowel. the needle is connected to a plastic tube attached to a steamer--rigged up out of a kettle or something similar.

You might accomplish something similar by placing the neck and dowel in a 175 degree oven, or in a car parked in the sun for several hours. Hyde glue should soften enough to twist the dowel out.

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Jun 24, 2022 - 4:58:02 PM

182 posts since 5/27/2008

I use a Mr Coffee expresso to make steam. As said above, basketball pump needle is long enough for this operation. If you think you may want to save the old neck drill up beside the dowel or you can remove the heel cap ( if it has one) and drill up from the bottom and steel from that angle .

Jun 24, 2022 - 8:05:01 PM

9795 posts since 8/28/2013

quote:
Originally posted by notty pine

I use a Mr Coffee expresso to make steam. As said above, basketball pump needle is long enough for this operation. If you think you may want to save the old neck drill up beside the dowel or you can remove the heel cap ( if it has one) and drill up from the bottom and steel from that angle .


I have also used an expresso machine bought at a thrift store for a couple bucks. It leaks a bit, but still gets enough steam through the needle. Another old trick is to use vinegar.I  find that that is not as effective as steam. I also can't stand the smell. I haven't tried a chainsaw, although I have been temped to try dynamite.  

The biggest problem will probably not be extracting the old dowel, but aligning it in its new neck. That has to be done perfectly, or action difficulties can occur.

One more thing: make sure all old glue residue has been removed from the dowel stick tenon before attempting installation in the new neck.

Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 06/24/2022 20:10:45

Jun 25, 2022 - 6:37:07 AM
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Players Union Member

Helix

USA

15728 posts since 8/30/2006

This was discussed about 12 years ago, an Elder came forward, you know, a person older than us.

Please no steam
No new holes in the heel.
Very difficult to get enough heat in there and keep it there.
No heat gun.

Just a 5% solution of Apple cider vinegar, wrap a rag around the dowel stick and gently pour warm vinegar on the rag and let it set overnight. The glue pickles and the dowel should twist right out.  Vinegar is an acid, so that's why the weaker solution.  Don't pickle your finish.

IF I want to lift a fingerboard, I use a steam iron on low heat without steam, frets transfer heat very well.
I have the Wagner wallpaper steamer with the trigger, we use it all over the house.  Like Arizona, it's a dry steam. 
I remember BEEGEE said he uses hot vinegar.  I don't know what strength

A laminated neck wants to stay together, weak points are the hand stop or ferrule, the 5th peg hole and the heel.
I have a little Vega 17 fret neck from the '20s; the dowel was removed clean as a whistle.

Patience.

What George said about dowel alignment. I made a new 5-string neck for a Lange Challenger, the double flatbar archtop with the adjustable aperture resonator on bayonet mounts. I made a new dowel stick from Jatoba, a two piece. I have used Jatoba for a truss rod.
He wanted the d'Angelico New Yorker headstock with a tunneled 5th.
Dowel alignment uses two angles, read up on this.  We don't care what it smells like.

Otherwise, I appreciate your historical interest.
Here's a picture of the Lange 5-string conversion.


Edited by - Helix on 06/25/2022 06:49:35

Jun 25, 2022 - 4:52:40 PM
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9795 posts since 8/28/2013

I have never had success using vinegar to break down old glue. It does help me to puke, though. Being acidic, I doubt if it's any more benign than other methods I see no reason why using steam is harmful if used carefully, and the hole need for the ball inflator nozzle is so small it won't hurt structure and can be plugged or hidden quite easily. I also see no reason why heat would be a no-no, when the person who says so uses heat to remove fretboards.

I have done this dowel stick removal more than once. I've done it by drilling inot the neck heel as close as possible to the actual seam, but have also done it by removing a fret and drilling down through the slot (we're not talking about insertion of a sewer pipe here). That fret can be replaced (if its been removed carefully) and guess what, no more hole!

Jun 25, 2022 - 4:53:49 PM
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9795 posts since 8/28/2013

Cue a Helix reaction--he seems to hate nearly everything I say.

Jun 25, 2022 - 5:19:29 PM

PaulRF

Australia

3347 posts since 2/1/2012

quote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

Cue a Helix reaction--he seems to hate nearly everything I say.


Yes. You and Ken are on his hit list. ??

Jun 26, 2022 - 3:10:28 AM
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47 posts since 8/13/2021

I think most replies to fixes or repairs are based on opinion, on what method(s) work; e methods we found have worked in our shops, or have proven a "fix", for a repair we have encountered along the way. Many, being from varied levels of experience, availability to tools, tooling practices, and as mentioned.. time under your belt actually doing instrument repair.. as opposed to the hobby interest group.
IMO, there is room, and a need, for ideas and expression to give an interest group "life" and viability. kb

Jun 26, 2022 - 10:19:21 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

15728 posts since 8/30/2006

Jun 26, 2022 - 3:44:37 PM
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14741 posts since 6/29/2005

quote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

Cue a Helix reaction--he seems to hate nearly everything I say.


Welcome to the club!

Jun 26, 2022 - 4:21:45 PM

9795 posts since 8/28/2013

I was welcomed informally quite a while back. Right now, I have reached a point in my life where I rather enjoy pushing certain people's buttons. I am used to being demeaned and don't get too upset, while some people seem a bit sensitive, as if their integrity is being attacked. It can be amusing to see those people flinch.

I will never figure a person, though, who has enough ability that he/she could just rest on their talents, rather than to jump at the tiniest provocation.

Jun 27, 2022 - 1:47:56 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

15728 posts since 8/30/2006

Let's talk about banjos please.

You guys are free to contact me off forum, but that never happens.  You just killed a good thread. 

People have the right to good advice.

I respect the Elder that came forward after all the needle valve and drilling and replacing frets.  This has been covered before, but when you insist on tangling, then other ideas get stomped in front of unsuspecting and novice tinkerers and potentially good mechanics.  

We are free to discuss and disagree.

Go play banjo. 

Edited by - Helix on 06/27/2022 01:55:47

Jun 27, 2022 - 1:55:58 AM

PaulRF

Australia

3347 posts since 2/1/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Helix

Let's talk about banjos please.

You guys are free to contact me off forum, but that never happens.  

 


I don't get you Larry. Every time when members respond to your snide remarks you always come back with "I want to talk about banjos".  If that statement was true then why do you keep baiting them.  

Paul 

Jun 27, 2022 - 2:14:14 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

15728 posts since 8/30/2006

No tangling, you are under observation. Pudding?

Jun 27, 2022 - 3:28:32 AM

PaulRF

Australia

3347 posts since 2/1/2012

Under observation. Really, from who?


 

Jun 27, 2022 - 7:09:12 PM
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14 posts since 5/19/2019

I'm mostly a lurker and to be honest, I can't for the life of me understand why Helix hasn't been banned yet. Usually about the only thing I can even understand about his posts is that he's being hostile.
Multiple good posters have been scared off by his attacks and negativity, and who knows how many never got involved because there's hardly a thread that gets started that he doesn't crap all over with his condescending word salad.
He must donate a lot of money to BHO, it's the only explanation for why he's still allowed to post.

Jun 27, 2022 - 7:21:42 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

15728 posts since 8/30/2006

This has been going on for years before you became an observer

I’ll try to be more positive

but isn't this just about removing a dowel

Edited by - Helix on 06/27/2022 19:22:59

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