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Dotted note timing/syncopation - TablEdit

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May 22, 2022 - 3:24:40 AM
406 posts since 5/21/2020

Hi Guy's

I seem to recall that there was a feature in the old version of TablEdit that allowed you to manipulate the timing/syncopation of notes. It's been a while since I used this feature and can't recall how I was able to do this. I've looked through the TablEdit query section but I don't see anything that jumps out at me which explains this.

Basically what I am looking to do is start the measure off with 2 quarter notes. The second half of the measure starts with a dotted 1/8th note, a quarter note and ending on a dotted 1/8th note. 4/4 timing.

May 22, 2022 - 5:39:46 AM

banjoy

USA

10288 posts since 7/1/2006

quote:
Originally posted by FenderFred


Basically what I am looking to do is start the measure off with 2 quarter notes. The second half of the measure starts with a dotted 1/8th note, a quarter note and ending on a dotted 1/8th note. 4/4 timing.


Maybe you can clarify ... there is some confusion in the way this question is phrased ... a measure of two quarter notes is 2/4 time. In 4/4 time sig there are 4 quarter notes. By definition.

As to how to accomplish that in older version of TablEdit, can you post a screen shot of the control panels and pallets that are available to you in the version you're using?

May 22, 2022 - 6:04:10 AM

banjoy

USA

10288 posts since 7/1/2006

quote:
Originally posted by banjoy
quote:
Originally posted by FenderFred


Basically what I am looking to do is start the measure off with 2 quarter notes. The second half of the measure starts with a dotted 1/8th note, a quarter note and ending on a dotted 1/8th note. 4/4 timing.


Maybe you can clarify ... there is some confusion in the way this question is phrased ... a measure of two quarter notes is 2/4 time. In 4/4 time sig there are 4 quarter notes. By definition.

As to how to accomplish that in older version of TablEdit, can you post a screen shot of the control panels and pallets that are available to you in the version you're using?


Sorry I see now what you're saying about the measure you're describing in 4/4. My bad. My 2nd cup of coffee cleared that up for me :)

Anyway, the screenshots would be helpful, TablEdit has changed their pallets over the versions. The current version has a couple of ways to accomplish dotted notes.

May 22, 2022 - 6:22:19 AM
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RB3

USA

1304 posts since 4/12/2004

If I read the original post correctly, the measure consists of: 1/4 + 1/4 + Dotted 1/8 + 1/4 + Dotted 1/8. That's equivalent to: 1/4 + 1/4 + 3/16 + 1/4 + 3/16 = 1 1/8. The sum of all the notes in a 4/4 measure, expressed as fractions, must equal 1, so it appears that the measure has exceeded its time limit.

May 22, 2022 - 7:58:25 AM

7670 posts since 8/30/2004

Fred,

Why has this become so complicated? You can easily change from 2/4 to 4/4 in Tabledit. Like Frank says screen shot your measures. You seem to be confused about basic timing theory which can easily be corrected by posting a screen shot as Frank suggests or am I missing something?...J

Edited by - Jack Baker on 05/22/2022 08:04:05

May 22, 2022 - 8:19:25 AM

406 posts since 5/21/2020

quote:
Originally posted by RB3

If I read the original post correctly, the measure consists of: 1/4 + 1/4 + Dotted 1/8 + 1/4 + Dotted 1/8. That's equivalent to: 1/4 + 1/4 + 3/16 + 1/4 + 3/16 = 1 1/8. The sum of all the notes in a 4/4 measure, expressed as fractions, must equal 1, so it appears that the measure has exceeded its time limit.


Well spotted Wayne. Yes that 1/4 note in the second half of the measure should be an 8th note. 

So it should read 1/4 + 1/4 +1/8thdotted + 1/8th  + 1/8thdotted makes 4/4 measure.

There was a feature on the old version of TablEdit that allowed you to shift note positions to allow syncopation.     

May 22, 2022 - 8:23:33 AM

406 posts since 5/21/2020

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Baker

Fred,

Why has this become so complicated? You can easily change from 2/4 to 4/4 in Tabledit. Like Frank says screen shot your measures. You seem to be confused about basic timing theory which can easily be corrected by posting a screen shot as Frank suggests or am I missing something?...J


Jack, I am not sure where the 2/4 comes in I am writing the TAB in 4/4 I want to add a syncopated lick to one measure.

May 22, 2022 - 8:45:47 AM

7670 posts since 8/30/2004

I would have to see your tab to help...

May 22, 2022 - 9:22:38 AM

RB3

USA

1304 posts since 4/12/2004

The definition for syncopation that I prefer, is from the Cambridge dictionary: a type of musical rhythm in which strong notes are not on the beat.  Based upon that definition, syncopation would be achieved in the measure if the 1/8 note or the last dotted 1/8 note is accented.  Neither of the those notes coincide with a beat.  The two 1/4 notes and the first dotted 1/8 note each coincide with the first three beats respectively, so accenting any of them would not result in syncopation.

Edited by - RB3 on 05/22/2022 09:28:54

May 22, 2022 - 9:55:17 AM

7670 posts since 8/30/2004

I think seeing the tab would teach fed better than definitions from a dictionary personally. Fred try to post a picture or something then i think i can help you in better context...

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May 22, 2022 - 11:04:27 AM

7670 posts since 8/30/2004

Just the picture of the tab/measures is all I need...Jack

Edited by - Jack Baker on 05/22/2022 11:04:49

May 22, 2022 - 1:12:50 PM

13319 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by RB3

The definition for syncopation that I prefer, is from the Cambridge dictionary: a type of musical rhythm in which strong notes are not on the beat


A simpler definition is notes in unexpected places.

May 23, 2022 - 1:46:22 AM

406 posts since 5/21/2020

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Baker

Just the picture of the tab/measures is all I need...Jack


Hi Jack Baker

Here is the measure written in 2/4

I am trying to replicate this lick in 4/4 

Edited by - FenderFred on 05/23/2022 01:53:56

May 23, 2022 - 2:15:40 AM

406 posts since 5/21/2020

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Baker

Just the picture of the tab/measures is all I need...Jack


Here is a larger image Jack Baker

May 23, 2022 - 5:47:26 AM

7670 posts since 8/30/2004

This is correct Fred in 2/4...Look in my Ground Speed in measures 18 and 19 in 4/4 time...My tab is in the tab archives...Jack

 

Edited by - Jack Baker on 05/23/2022 05:57:43

May 23, 2022 - 6:38:18 AM
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RB3

USA

1304 posts since 4/12/2004

For 4/4 time signature, all you have to do is change each 1/8 note to a 1/4 note and each 1/16 note to an 1/8 note. One difference in 4/4 is that you won't have the flag (horizontal line) connecting the last three notes, because the 1/4 note in that group of three does not have a flag.


Edited by - RB3 on 05/23/2022 06:41:50

May 23, 2022 - 7:03:20 AM

406 posts since 5/21/2020

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Baker

This is correct Fred in 2/4...Look in my Ground Speed in measures 18 and 19 in 4/4 time...My tab is in the tab archives...Jack

 


Thanks Jack, I see how you got round the problem. Not quite the way I had in mind. 

May 23, 2022 - 7:05:59 AM

406 posts since 5/21/2020

quote:
Originally posted by RB3

For 4/4 time signature, all you have to do is change each 1/8 note to a 1/4 note and each 1/16 note to an 1/8 note. One difference in 4/4 is that you won't have the flag (horizontal line) connecting the last three notes, because the 1/4 note in that group of three does not have a flag.

 

 


Thanks Wayne this is similar to how Jack did it minus the tied note.

May 23, 2022 - 7:27:20 AM

13319 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by FenderFred

Hi Guy's

I seem to recall that there was a feature in the old version of TablEdit that allowed you to manipulate the timing/syncopation of notes. 


Just put the syncopated notes where you need them to be, which apparently is off the counted beat.

If you're in 4/4, go to the menu bar and select View > Scale to 1/16 notes.  Then use the left or right arrow keys to move the insertion point one sixteenth note at a time to put it where you want the note to be. TablEdit will automatically insert rests to keep the total time duration of the measure correct. The rests will disappear as you fill out the measure with notes.

May 23, 2022 - 7:36:21 AM
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Players Union Member

janolov

Sweden

41638 posts since 3/7/2006

Where are the dotted notes you were talking about. There is no dotted notes in neither the 1/4 version nor the 4/4 version?

When you are writing a tab, there are two important things to think about to get the right rhythm, syncopations and dotting:

1. You must place the note on the right time. You can regard the tab as a time line. In 4/4 the default setting  in TablEdit includes 16 positions per measure. A quarter note is 4 positions long, a 1/8 note is two positions long. 

2. You must adjust the length of each note (quantize notes). Sometimes it is easier to use Ties (Jack Baker used ties, at least in some old version of Ground Speed that I have downloaded).

3. It helps to be a good mathematician when writing tabs, at least to be good at counting 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 and dots

Edited by - janolov on 05/23/2022 07:36:50

May 23, 2022 - 7:38:49 AM

7670 posts since 8/30/2004

Fred,
I'm not sure what you're looking for but this is how it's done. Everyone has shown you how to do it. You may have to go to Matthieu to solve your problem. I tabledit 2/4 the 1/8th note gets the whole beat and in 4/4 the quarter note gets the whole beat. It is not more difficult than that and if you don't agree then by all means go to the originator of the program, Matthieu...Jack

Originally posted by FenderFred
quote:
Originally posted by Jack Baker

This is correct Fred in 2/4...Look in my Ground Speed in measures 18 and 19 in 4/4 time...My tab is in the tab archives...Jack

 


Thanks Jack, I see how you got round the problem. Not quite the way I had in mind. 


Edited by - Jack Baker on 05/23/2022 07:44:00

May 23, 2022 - 7:51:42 AM

7670 posts since 8/30/2004

"In Tabledit'
Originally posted by Jack Baker
Fred,
I'm not sure what you're looking for but this is how it's done. Everyone has shown you how to do it. You may have to go to Matthieu to solve your problem. I tabledit 2/4 the 1/8th note gets the whole beat and in 4/4 the quarter note gets the whole beat. It is not more difficult than that and if you don't agree then by all means go to the originator of the program, Matthieu...Jack

Originally posted by FenderFred
quote:
Originally posted by Jack Baker

This is correct Fred in 2/4...Look in my Ground Speed in measures 18 and 19 in 4/4 time...My tab is in the tab archives...Jack

 


Thanks Jack, I see how you got round the problem. Not quite the way I had in mind. 


 


May 23, 2022 - 1:32:17 PM

406 posts since 5/21/2020

Ok Guy's just forget that I asked the question. None of this is helpful

May 23, 2022 - 3:25:46 PM
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7670 posts since 8/30/2004

Fred,
Exactly what are you asking? Your question has to make sense before anybody can help you--it's almost  that timing is just not for you....J

Edited by - Jack Baker on 05/23/2022 15:36:01

May 23, 2022 - 4:46:02 PM

13319 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by FenderFred

Ok Guy's just forget that I asked the question. None of this is helpful


Not true. Janolov explained exactly how TablEdit works. Whether your notes are dotted to change their duration or you want notes to sound on a certain count off the beat, you have to put them on the right place. Whether or not TablEdit ever had the manipulation tool you're remembering, notes always had to be  aligned with the tick mark on the timeline that makes that happen.

By the way, your proposed measure of 2 quarters and 3 dotted eighths adds up to 17/16 so you're still a tad over.

May 23, 2022 - 4:56:20 PM

7670 posts since 8/30/2004

Ken,
Fred is looking for something that doesn't exist and I think he knows it...This topic has been over for sometime now...jack

Edited by - Jack Baker on 05/23/2022 16:57:11

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