One thing you can experiment with first is how much the bridge would have to be set back to get the 3rd string in perfect tune at the 12th fret.  This will tell you how much of a slant would be needed.  Might be a lot more than anticipated.

I used to slant the bridge -- yet the 3rd string was still somewhat sharp.  But now realize that the entire banjo (my particular Prucha banjo) sounds better with a straight bridge, at least the way I play it..  The 4th string is in tune up the neck instead of being noticeably flat, and I fret the 5th string a lot, usually on the higher frets, and that's in tune also with a straight bridge.

Experiment a bit, see what gives you the best overall sound.

Yes you do need a compensated bridge.I comp the second and 3rd string usually but just 3rd will work.I can send you a couple to try if you like. Need your height, weight preferred. Send me an email and I will give you my phone number we can discuss, Harold

Bridge position, and slant, can vary with the banjo and with the tuning. That's my experience, anyway. For sure try a compensated bridge; they commonly set the 3rd string longer. A generic one will show you if it's something that helps. If so, you can order one specifically made for your banjo. I don't remember the names of the BHO members who will build you a custom compensated bridge, sorry.

I once did as Alex suggested and found that the 0,016" plain third string needed a full 1/4 inch compensation to be in tune at fret 12. The solution I settled on was a 0.018" wound third string. Played in tune with better tone, to my ear, than an unwound string.

With one of Silvio's bridges on that kind of neck it's highly unlikely that you need a compensated bridge.

Follow this routine Jeff, it's required knowledge for any banjo player and it'll tell you exactly where you are and/or should be. Pay particular attention to where I mention some strings are more forgiving than others:

https://banjobridge.com/br-06.htm

Bart, retired bridgemaker.

If you are using  straight bridge, you ought to slant it.  With stretched strings, the stiffer they are, the more compensation (lengthening) is needed to get the harmonic partial note to match the fretted note.

Unwound plain steel ones, gauge for gauge are stiffer than wound ones, which is why compensated bridges have that backward blip at the third string—because the third string is the stiffest one.

Nylon strings don't need any compensation because they are not very stiff, so the saddles on classical guitars are straight.on steel string guitars they always slant to the bass.  With bluegrass flatpicking, the slant doesn't have to be so great, but with fingerpicking, the intonation is more critical and you need  6 degrees.  If you play a lot of chords, key-specific note tweaking is helpful.

I would imagine that banjos, with straight bridges, especially if you are fingerpicking and playing up the neck ought to be tilted between 4 and 6 degrees depending on the differences in string gauges between the 1st and 3rd.

Also short scales, ever more popular today, need more compensation, and the whole bridge has to be moved down farther. Using heavier strings to compensate for the slackness the short scale compounds the problem.

If you fret the 5th string, then you need a crazily compensated setup.

Many thanks all! Have some things to try!

My compensated bridge design works fine on plectrum banjos,too.

I can vouch for Bart's method of establishing what compensating bridge is best for a particular banjo. I had a Lyon & Healy banjo that I was having particular trouble with in terms of the intonation. It was mounted with gut strings, and I had tried a few compensating bridges unsuccessfully before reading the method outlined on Bart's link. I made a bridge that compensated for the poor intonation, and it was completely different from what I would have imagined. I learned that there are a lot of factors that influence compensation. String size, as has been mentioned, is a big one, as the stiffness of the string heavily influences intonation. Here is the resulting bridge that corrected the intonation on this particular banjo.

My compensated design works on all 5 string and plectrum banjos that have no significant build issues.
Most banjos don't have specific problems with their build.

What works best for me is to slant the bridge. The first three strings are fretted much more often than the fourth and fifth (especially when playing Scruggs-style) and thus more notes overall will be in tune.

Try a generic compensated bridge. Sounds pretty straight forward.

It's wonderful to see so many people chiming in on this topic.

Once upon a time I used my method, as per link above, to measure the required offsets for the individual strings on a whole bunch of banjos that I owned, or borrowed for the occasion. As well, from the many offset numbers that folks would email me over the years after they followed the routine I linked to, it became totally clear that not one banjo behaves like another as clearly was shown by the offset numbers people used to send to me after going thru this routine.

It should not come as a surprise that banjos often disregard logic, or even the laws of physics, being the weird critters they are.

Because of the results of the many, many tests I did, I decided, very much to the dismay of my retail dealers, to discontinue my generically compensated bridges (I think it was back in 2006) as it was all too clear that averaged generically compensated bridges didn't have a hope in hope in heck to solve people's intonation problems and there was no way I could sign off my name on a "here's-hoping" product.

Angling/slanting your bridge? > check the link I posted above: you don't have to worry about the number of the degrees, your own ears will guide you to perfection.

Rives: I'm tickled to see that your bridge did the trick for you. And, well, why shouldn't it - there are millions of electric guitar players with moveable saddles who are all too pleased about being able to play in proper tune and that's what my wacky method is/was based on. By the way, on the picture you posted it looks like, in your specific case, that you needed to shorten the 2nd string's length >  in the 20+ years that I futzed around with bridges, I only remember 2 people who asked me to do just that so you're the 3rd fellow ever who needed to shorten their 2nd string 

I've always wondered, how can one possibly recommend a generically compensated bridge, without even asking which strings, and by how much, their intonation offsets need to be corrected? Again, once you actually take the time to measure up a bunch of banjo and you'll experience it for yourself that banjos are hugely unique and generically comped bridges cannot hope to possibly cut it.

[rant > off]

Just in case: please remember I'm retired now so, for my personal sanity's sake, I no longer answer bridge-question emails. Oh, here's that link again: https://banjobridge.com/br-06.htm - again, it's required knowledge for anyone playing a banjos of whatever kind.

Bart, He mentioned the third was the only one that seemed sharp. Generic compensated bridges always have the 3rd lengthened most. Not a certain fix, but an easy first thing to try. That's how I could recommend it.

What Bart says is thoroughly correct.

Intonation on banjos (and guitars for that matter) is string gauge specific.

Not so long ago, it was common to use a wound third string on banjos, which makes the third string less of a problem, and would make a generic compensated bridge useless, so would using the 11-11-15-23-11 set used by Bill Keith.

The thing with banjos is they have a fast decay, little sustain, and rapid-fire notes, and to quote Pete Seeger "there's a galaxy of notes with a melody in there somewhere", so it's hard to pick out a slightly "off "note in that milky way.  Electric guitars, on the other hand have an endless sustain, so they MUST have individually adjustable string bearings on their bridges.

If you had a banjo playing style that was slow, with long notes and a lot of full chords, string stiffness inharmonicity would be more noticeable, and banjo bridges would have to be different.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce Berry Banjos

Bart, He mentioned the third was the only one that seemed sharp. Generic compensated bridges always have the 3rd lengthened most. Not a certain fix, but an easy first thing to try. That's how I could recommend it.

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Yes, the original poster did say his 3rd string needed lengthening. He also did say that his 4th string sounded properly in tune.

Here's the thing though: without measuring by how much needs to be lengthened then you're at the mercy of someone else's guess. Over the years I've experienced that the offset measurements for the 3rd string ranged from 0.5 to 7 mm.

Keep in mind, generic compensated bridges also lengthen the 2nd and 4th string. When these 2 strings sound accurately in tune as-is, then by being made longer, now you have purposely introduced intonation issues for these 2 strings. Oops...

"An easy first thing to try." Yes, that it is. What do you think the chances for success are though...? Then again, a budget bridge like that plus shipping would be what, $20 or so, the economy sure would appreciate that...

I'm not retired from bridge making.

Fair enough. I suppose it's the difference between addressing a problem and still accepting some compromise, and achieving perfect intonation. Which seems to have been your focus. But if it comes down to a straight bridge having the third way out, or a generic compensated/moon bridge with compromises, it might be worth 20 bucks.

My point being, Even if better isn't perfect, it's still better..

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce Berry Banjos

My point being, Even if better isn't perfect, it's still better..

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For any bridge maker worth their salt, making a properly intonating bridge is easily doable. Re-read RMCDOW's post: perfection can easily be obtained by anyone making a bridge according to the method I wrote up in the link I mentioned.

The days of having to settle for an intonation compromises ended over 20 years ago when I started making them using this method. Yeah, I know, it's a lot of extra work compared to cranking out generic comps.

Then again, what do I know, I'm just a banjoey...

When i have this problem i simply fudge a little more on the bass side, meaning i make those strings a little longer to help the 3rd string out and then comprimise when tuning the 4th string. I do a lot of up the neck playing and the 4th isnt as critical to have exactly right since i dont use it much up there.

There are other solutions than just yours,Bart.

If you need an instrument with perfect intonation, then a banjo is probably not your best choice. Check out the thousands of banjo recordings, starting in the 1890's with Vess Ossman, Fred Van Eps and others and coming down through the recordings of Earl Scruggs, J.D. Crowe and others. None of these people worried about perfect intonation, compensated bridges, etc. They set their bridges as close as possible and concentrated on their playing, not the instrument. Spending an inordinate amount of time worrying about perfect intonation will not help near as much as spending the same amount of time practicing. As the old adage goes: "How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice!"

It's impossible to achieve perfect intonation with other than stepped frets.
My beautiful comper is still a compromise,but much closer than any straight bridge.
The difference shows up in not needing to retune when quickly throwing on a capo or playing direct harmonies with fiddles,guitars,mandolins and pianos.

What my bridge does for all 5 string and plectrum banjos is give them the 12th fret fretted and harmonic notes both at "0" on a tuner.
This improves all fretted notes with many fretting at or near 0.The sound is very sweet in the balance of the chords.

I offer free trials of my bridges.

There is not an instrument made that will ever have perfect intonation, and stringed instruments are probably among the worst. One get get close but there will always be some oddities because strings are stiff and don't completely follow the rules of physics. The can also be the effects of imperfect bridges and nuts which cause imprfect termination of the string's speaking length. Frets can be slightly off, and even playing technique will affect intonation (finger pressure or a slight sideways pull will make the string go sharp, and the minute one has everything adequately tuned everything begins to go out.

A compensated bridge can certainly help. but forget about perfection. Tune as best you can. and play.