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Oct 23, 2021 - 12:57:38 PM
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Players Union Member

DC5

USA

21177 posts since 6/30/2015

This is rule number one in any gun safety class. All guns are loaded until you yourself have proved it is not loaded, and even then it should be treated like it is loaded. Never point a gun in an unsafe direction, and never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to destroy whatever the muzzle is pointed at. This has been drilled into me since I was a child. I was brought up with guns, and I've attended several gun safety classes. When I was in elementary school the police came to the school once a year to teach about gun safety, and about blasting caps. I was never allowed to point even a toy gun at anyone - with the single exception of a water gun.

Anyone who is going to handle guns should be mandated to take, and pass, a firearms safety class. This is especially true of actors, particularly those who are anti-gun. Of course IMNSHO, anyone who is anti gun should not profit by using them theatrically. People who have been around guns know that blanks are not harmless. People who have been trained in firearm safety do not pull triggers unless they themselves have made sure that the gun is unloaded. Anyone that picks up a gun and pulls the trigger is responsible for anything that happens following the trigger pull.

Many tragedies can be avoided with firearms safety classes. These should be mandated in school, and absolutely mandated before anyone is allowed to even touch a firearm. Now another tragedy because someone did not follow rule number 1.

Oct 23, 2021 - 2:00:02 PM

Owen

Canada

9799 posts since 6/5/2011

My firearms safety course [a.k.a. my common sense] has served me very well.   wink   As always, YMMV.

Oct 23, 2021 - 2:24:31 PM
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Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

26513 posts since 8/3/2003

I agree with you 100%. I've been around guns since I was a kid. My mother instilled gun safety in my head early. Back then there were no gun safety courses and no license to carry regulations.

I took a gun safety course a few years ago and had no problem passing the written and the shooting test. Common sense pretty much tells you what to do.

I have guns in my house (no children or grandchildren around) and they are loaded and on safety and in their cases, but ready to use should the need arise.

If you don't know how to handle a firearm, you should not even touch one until you know the safety rules and have had enough practice to be able to handle the gun easily and safety.

Oct 23, 2021 - 2:31:13 PM
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oly

USA

1464 posts since 5/27/2006

Way to many people have been killed by "unloaded guns"

Oct 23, 2021 - 2:57:41 PM
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58462 posts since 12/14/2005

Ever hear of a safety organization called OSHA?
Ever hear of how CAREFUL you should be when playing chess?

Well, if anybody asks you if all guns should be treated AS IF they are LOADED, say this answer, as fast as you can, three to six times:

"OSHA Chess!"  "OSHA Chess!"  "OSHA Chess!"  cheeky

Oct 23, 2021 - 4:41:33 PM

Bill Rogers (Moderator)

USA

25392 posts since 6/25/2005

I’m not a gun person, but I’ve known that rule since I was a kid. On the rare occasions I’m around guns, I follow it without fail.

Oct 23, 2021 - 5:20:30 PM

2426 posts since 7/20/2004

As far as I'm concerned there's no such thing as an unloaded gun, unless I have physically cleared it and even then, I treat it as if it were loaded. I've told my wife and grown son, in case of my sudden demise, to treat every gun in the house as if it were loaded, as most of them are, at least the short ones.

Oct 23, 2021 - 6:06:40 PM

15352 posts since 12/2/2005

quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo

 

Common sense pretty much tells you what to do.


Well, unless it's been replaced by popular opinion. All too common these days.

Oct 23, 2021 - 8:02:45 PM

Brian T

Canada

18845 posts since 6/5/2008

We had trained and sanctioned, certified Range Officers. Essential for registered matches and so on.

"SLIDES BACK! ACTIONS OPEN! PUT YOUR GUN ON THE BENCH AND STEP BACK!"

"GO FORWARD TO LOAD CLIPS AND CYLINDERS!"

I think the Armorer for the movie could have used a little more control over the firearms.
I would own the keys to the box.

Oct 23, 2021 - 10:44:52 PM

rcc56

USA

3841 posts since 2/20/2016

From 2016 to 2019, the US averaged about 15,000 shooting deaths and 30,000 shooting injuries per year. That works out to about 41 fatalities per day, and 82 injuries per day. Suicides are not included in these numbers.  About 700 casualties per year were children between 0 to 11 years old, and  casualties among those between 12 and 17 years old ranged from just under 2900 to about 3250.  Mass shooting casualties varied between 336 to 417 per year.

The number of unintentional shootings during that period varied between 1691 and 2232, or 4.6 to 6.1 per day.  Defensive shootings ranged from about 1600 to 2100.

2020 was a bad year with 19,468 fatalities and 39,505 injuries, or 53 deaths and 108 injuries per day. 2325 were unintentional, and 1478 were defensive.  Mass shooting casualties totaled 611.

The numbers for 2021 are already above those for 2016 to 2019, but will be a bit lower than those for 2020.

 

The incident on the film set was horribly sad, but it seems like a drop in the bucket compared the daily number of intentional shootings.

In the US, it is necessary to procure and maintain a license to drive a motor vehicle legally, and register the vehicle in the state where the owner resides. Licenses and registrations must be renewed at regular intervals. In some states, proof of insurance must be furnished to register a vehicle. I have no argument with these policies.

Edited by - rcc56 on 10/23/2021 23:08:30

Oct 23, 2021 - 10:45:03 PM
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4008 posts since 4/22/2018
Online Now

I assume you are talking about the film set shooting Dave? I must admit that now it turns out it was a real gun I can’t comprehend how anyone could point it at another person and pull the trigger without personally checking what state it was in first - irrespective of who had told you it was safe beforehand.

Oct 23, 2021 - 11:13:53 PM

Paul R

Canada

15143 posts since 1/28/2010

I was told to never point a gun at anyone, period. I said this to the Mrs. this past evening. She said she was told that, too. Why do some people not seem to know this? I was given a .22 when I was a kid - but they removed the firing pin. That was fine with me.

Oct 24, 2021 - 12:46:34 AM
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1253 posts since 1/25/2017

Alec Baldwin should serve time.

Oct 24, 2021 - 1:59:02 AM

figmo59

USA

34440 posts since 3/5/2008

This is a case where...someone is..

Too smart fer thier own....good...

Oct 24, 2021 - 4:59:18 AM
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Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

26513 posts since 8/3/2003

quote:
Originally posted by SimonSlick

Alec Baldwin should serve time.


I think we should wait for the facts to come out before condemning him.  Who loaded the gun?  Who told him it was blanks?  Was it done intentionally or accidentally.  Yes, he should have double checked to be sure  there were blanks in the gun and what was he doing pointing it at her anyway?  Too many unanswered questions for me to make a decision whether he's guilty or it was just a horrible accident.

Oct 24, 2021 - 5:25:37 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

21177 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by rcc56


In the US, it is necessary to procure and maintain a license to drive a motor vehicle legally, and register the vehicle in the state where the owner resides. Licenses and registrations must be renewed at regular intervals. In some states, proof of insurance must be furnished to register a vehicle. I have no argument with these policies.


Only if you are driving in on public roads.  I require no license or registration to drive vehicles on my own property, though the town does limit how many unregistered vehicles I can have on my property.  None of the cars driving around the race track next door are registered. 

I'm (now) in favor of licensing after passing a safety course and background check.  I am, and always will be, firmly opposed to gun registration of any kind.  No one has ever shown that registration reduces crime, accidents or death.  Safety classes do.  The only reason that I've come around on licensing is that there are people who are absolutely prohibited from even touching a firearm.  The only way a seller can really know is if the person is licensed.  Licensing, however, should be easily obtainable, and not prohibitively priced - and like a drivers license, once issued, is good in every state, city and town.

Oct 24, 2021 - 5:40:09 AM
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Players Union Member

DC5

USA

21177 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
quote:
Originally posted by SimonSlick

Alec Baldwin should serve time.


I think we should wait for the facts to come out before condemning him.  Who loaded the gun?  Who told him it was blanks?  Was it done intentionally or accidentally.  Yes, he should have double checked to be sure  there were blanks in the gun and what was he doing pointing it at her anyway?  Too many unanswered questions for me to make a decision whether he's guilty or it was just a horrible accident.


None of that is relevant.  Baldwin should never have pointed the gun in an unsafe direction, and he should have made sure the gun was not loaded.  The responsibility lies with him.  Same is if you gave me a gun and told me it was unloaded and I didn't check and shot someone.  It's my fault.  So we can call it unintentional homicide, but homicide it is.  People believe that blanks are not dangerous.  They are. Back in 1984 the actor Jon-Erik Hexum shot himself in the head and killed himself while playing Russian Roulette with a prop gun and a single blank cartridge.  Brandon Lee, the son of Bruce Lee, was shot in the spine when a prop gun was loaded with an actual cartridge, not a blank.  Each of these incidents would have been avoided if the actors took proper gun safety classes and checked their props.  Stunt actors are responsible for checking their own riggings and not just trusting the set up people.  Same should be true of any dangerous props used on sets.  Actors have been stabbed, hung, and slit their own throats with props, simply because they did not take enough care.  I've used guns in stage productions.  Even with non-firing weapons I would never point one at another actor.  I would always point slightly upstage.  The audience could not tell.  If using a blank gun with actual blanks, not caps, I would aim further upstage as the wadding and powder can travel a reasonable distance.  If other actors also handled guns in the play I always made sure that they knew safe gun handling.  Even toy guns are not toys. If Baldwin understood proper gun safety procedures this would never have happened. 

Oct 24, 2021 - 6:54:01 AM

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

26513 posts since 8/3/2003

quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
quote:
Originally posted by SimonSlick

Alec Baldwin should serve time.


I think we should wait for the facts to come out before condemning him.  Who loaded the gun?  Who told him it was blanks?  Was it done intentionally or accidentally.  Yes, he should have double checked to be sure  there were blanks in the gun and what was he doing pointing it at her anyway?  Too many unanswered questions for me to make a decision whether he's guilty or it was just a horrible accident.


None of that is relevant.  Baldwin should never have pointed the gun in an unsafe direction, and he should have made sure the gun was not loaded.  The responsibility lies with him.  Same is if you gave me a gun and told me it was unloaded and I didn't check and shot someone.  It's my fault.  So we can call it unintentional homicide, but homicide it is.  People believe that blanks are not dangerous.  They are. Back in 1984 the actor Jon-Erik Hexum shot himself in the head and killed himself while playing Russian Roulette with a prop gun and a single blank cartridge.  Brandon Lee, the son of Bruce Lee, was shot in the spine when a prop gun was loaded with an actual cartridge, not a blank.  Each of these incidents would have been avoided if the actors took proper gun safety classes and checked their props.  Stunt actors are responsible for checking their own riggings and not just trusting the set up people.  Same should be true of any dangerous props used on sets.  Actors have been stabbed, hung, and slit their own throats with props, simply because they did not take enough care.  I've used guns in stage productions.  Even with non-firing weapons I would never point one at another actor.  I would always point slightly upstage.  The audience could not tell.  If using a blank gun with actual blanks, not caps, I would aim further upstage as the wadding and powder can travel a reasonable distance.  If other actors also handled guns in the play I always made sure that they knew safe gun handling.  Even toy guns are not toys. If Baldwin understood proper gun safety procedures this would never have happened. 


It seems too easy to put the blame on just one person and not look at what might be the actual facts.  We don't know the facts, don't know who loaded the gun, don't know if he checked the gun and didn't know/couldn't tell the difference between live and blank rounds.  Don't have any idea if they were on a deadline, and rushing through or what,  etc.  Again, until I get more facts, I'll withhold judgment.

I do agree, however, that anyone who handles a firearm should have gun safety training and know how to load, shoot, unload, clean, etc. 

Oct 24, 2021 - 7:07:43 AM
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Players Union Member

DC5

USA

21177 posts since 6/30/2015

Sherry, with all due respect ^^ We do know the prop master who loaded the gun, and we do know that Baldwin fired it. He has already admitted to this. We also know that Baldwin acted in an unsafe manner, because if he acted safely, no one would have been injured, or killed. I'm not saying there isn't shared blame, the prop master certainly should have showed how the gun was loaded before handing it to Baldwin, and Baldwin should have again checked it himself - but even then he should not have put his finger on the trigger until he was ready to fire the gun as he was supposed to. Training would have resolved this. Baldwin, being a staunch enemy of the NRA and private gun ownership, I'm sure has never taken an NRA safety course. This last statement is conjecture on my part, but come on. If a person hands me a gun, the first thing they do is open the cylinder, or drop the magazine and clear the chamber before handing it to me. Then as soon as I receive the gun I open the cylinder or drop the magazine and clear the chamber before I do anything else. If the gun is loaded, I do the same checking that the correct ammunition is in the gun and whether or not the chamber is clear. This is what trained people do, and what all actors should do. Once the gun is in your hands, it is your responsibility. Anti-gun Hollywood, however, will make sure that none of the blame goes to Baldwin, just like they got behind the "innocence" of Roman Polanski.

Oct 24, 2021 - 7:47:49 AM

Owen

Canada

9799 posts since 6/5/2011

Dave: "... would have been avoided if the actors took proper gun safety classes and checked their props. "

Do we need both ^^, or just the latter? Wouldn't it have been avoided if he had checked for himself..... even if he hadn't taken a proper gun safety course?   I dunno whether any jurisdictions have the provision for a person to challenge an exam. 

Oct 24, 2021 - 8:14:11 AM

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

26513 posts since 8/3/2003

quote:
Originally posted by DC5

Sherry, with all due respect ^^ We do know the prop master who loaded the gun, and we do know that Baldwin fired it. He has already admitted to this. We also know that Baldwin acted in an unsafe manner, because if he acted safely, no one would have been injured, or killed. I'm not saying there isn't shared blame, the prop master certainly should have showed how the gun was loaded before handing it to Baldwin, and Baldwin should have again checked it himself - but even then he should not have put his finger on the trigger until he was ready to fire the gun as he was supposed to. Training would have resolved this. Baldwin, being a staunch enemy of the NRA and private gun ownership, I'm sure has never taken an NRA safety course. This last statement is conjecture on my part, but come on. If a person hands me a gun, the first thing they do is open the cylinder, or drop the magazine and clear the chamber before handing it to me. Then as soon as I receive the gun I open the cylinder or drop the magazine and clear the chamber before I do anything else. If the gun is loaded, I do the same checking that the correct ammunition is in the gun and whether or not the chamber is clear. This is what trained people do, and what all actors should do. Once the gun is in your hands, it is your responsibility. Anti-gun Hollywood, however, will make sure that none of the blame goes to Baldwin, just like they got behind the "innocence" of Roman Polanski.


We really agree on most everything here except I don't rush to judgment before I have ALL the facts.  All you said above about the prop master and Baldwin are true, however, in daily life stuff happens, people get rushed, people trust other people,  and things happen.    I agree, no gun should be pointed at a person or animal unless you're ready to aim and fire.   I agree, he should have checked the gun himself, but maybe he didn't know how.  That's his fault, agreed, but evidently he'd trusted and counted on others to be sure everything was safe and secure.  

As far as unloading a gun before handing it to someone, I've never done that.  I HAVE told them it's loaded and ready to go or I have told them it's unloaded and safe.  Usually, that's enough.   Most people I know will take the loaded gun, make sure it's on safety and don't check  any further  if they've been told its loaded.    Maybe just different parts of the country do things differently?  Neither is wrong. 

Oct 24, 2021 - 8:15:08 AM
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figmo59

USA

34440 posts since 3/5/2008

youtu.be/FP-4KtmfK3M

Before y'all jump to conclusions...

Oct 24, 2021 - 8:31:22 AM
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figmo59

USA

34440 posts since 3/5/2008

Mebee folks have xray eyes...

I do not....

N...in the movies...
Face it it is common place to point firearms..
At other people..(actors)..
N fire them...
It is kinda a...
Job ..requirement...

Edited by - figmo59 on 10/24/2021 08:35:28

Oct 24, 2021 - 8:33:10 AM
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figmo59

USA

34440 posts since 3/5/2008

After all the Movies are not Real Life..
Till it is....

Oct 24, 2021 - 10:52:37 AM

Brian T

Canada

18845 posts since 6/5/2008

The armorer is supposed to be totally in charge of these things. That's why there's a role for them to play on an action movie set. I think there ought to be some measure of liability that goes along with that. Needs to be a gun safe and the armorer holds the only keys.

There most certainly is in the field of commercial pyrotechnics which is entirely separate and apart from any pyrotechnician's work on stage or for screen. I held upper level cards for both as a wiring specialist. You can bet that your first accident is also your last for employment. Sure enough, any big crew always has stories to tell of other gigs they did. Every year, somebody dies doing exactly what they should not have done.

In order for some character to have an opposing POV, Baldwin had to point the gun straight at the camera. And, some AD was standing right behind the cinematographer.

RIP, kid

Oct 24, 2021 - 11:30:59 AM
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Players Union Member

DC5

USA

21177 posts since 6/30/2015

I will grant the following, which we do not know. If the prop master handed Baldwin a gun that was ready for the scene, AND the director wanted the gun fired directly at the camera - we've all seen this in films and on TV, then it is likely that there was a mis-fire - because the gun was not properly set up by the prop master or there was major equipment failure. In this case Baldwin would have little, and possibly no responsibility. He will, unfortunately, still live with this for the rest of his life, and I do not wish that on anyone. Does not change my original position that all actors handling firearms should be required to take a firearms safety course, and so should all directors who direct such pictures. As the video that Fig linked to, we don't know if this was a double barrel shotgun, which could have injured both crew members.

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