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Sep 20, 2021 - 4:58:16 AM
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7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Here's one by Tony I fooled with a little...Nice tune....Jack

I Will

Edited by - Jack Baker on 10/13/2021 15:15:20

Sep 20, 2021 - 8:12:31 AM
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Players Union Member

corcoran

Canada

452 posts since 8/3/2004

This is beautiful, Jack.

Sep 21, 2021 - 10:56:43 AM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Thanks Michael,
It was a great tune to work with. Allison Krauss really sings it beautifully...Jack

Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/21/2021 10:57:10

Sep 21, 2021 - 5:45:30 PM

3982 posts since 5/1/2003

I learned my own version of this tune,very similar to Tony’s.
After that I wrote a half dozen tunes in double C tuning. It was a lot of fun.

Sep 21, 2021 - 7:21:43 PM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Hi Rod,
I didn't see the need for double C for this tune. dropped C was just fine I thought when I tabbed it...Jack     p.s. to be honest, I got tired of seeing almost every clawhammer tune or fingerpicking banjo tune in double C when often, it's not needed....J

Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/21/2021 19:23:33

Sep 22, 2021 - 12:16:13 PM
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7247 posts since 11/4/2005

Jack wrote: “p.s. to be honest, I got tired of seeing almost every clawhammer tune or fingerpicking banjo tune in double C when often, it's not needed...”

This discussion, and the tab Jack posted, motivated me to go back and listen to the recording of Allison Krauss, with Tony Furtado on banjo. What a beautiful performance. No matter what your taste in banjo picking, you have to love this. Here’s the YouTube link:

Allison Krauss singing Paul McCartney’s I Will, with Tony Furtado on banjo

This is some wonderfully elegant banjo playing. Furtado tabbed it himself in his first book of banjo tabs, in Double C tuning. Rick Van Patten has tabbed it out in Double C, and appears to me to have stayed close to Furtado’s first break on the recording. You can find that in the tab archives, if you want to see how that works out.

At the risk of looking like I am just being argumentative, I think that it’s important, in particular for newer pickers, to hear a different point of view. It may often be true that to play a particular tune Double C tuning is not needed, strictly speaking. Just the same, having that open tonic note can make a lot of song and tune melodies easier to obtain, particularly for clawhammer players, who are locked into the pattern of their signature stroke. But that open tonic note also allows for some sounds that wouldn’t be possible in standard C, playing figures in the mid and upper regions of the neck while still having that mid-range tonic note ringing clear, often in tandem with a low C drone on the 4th string. More generally, the open tonic is likely to continue ringing longer after it has been sounded than the fretted note, which stops as soon as you lift your finger. To some extent, the note will also very gently ring in sympathy throughout the tune, even when it has not been directly picked. These traits give the tuning an ethereal ambiance, ghostly but not haunting.

Old time clawhammer players have been using Double C almost forever, but for years it was virtually unknown among bluegrass three finger pickers. One of the first pioneers was former Bluegrass Boy Tony Ellis, who blew a lot of us away with his tune Dixie Banner, which was the title cut on his first album on the Rounder Record label, released in 1987. In 2005, Jim Mills made an even bigger impression with his Hide Head Blues, the title track of his Sugar Hill album. One of Ellis’s biggest fans was comedian and banjo picker extraordinaire Steve Martin. Martin wrote and recorded his own Double C tune, The Crow, for his 2009 album The Crow: New Songs for the Five String Banjo.  When Martin picks that open C, over and over, listen to how crisp and long it rings.  You could probably play all three of these tunes in standard C, but I don't think they would have that same magic.  But some hear it, and some don't, and you may not.

- Don B.

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 09/22/2021 12:18:52

Sep 22, 2021 - 12:26:58 PM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Ha!
Looks like you're a double C fan Don...It's all good. I just did the tab differently. I've never seen Tony's book but I'm glad he has one. It will make a lot of BHOers really happy...Jack p.s. you gotta admit that drop C also works. You possess a very critical ear but most humans do not...pps. even my banjo students are complaining about everything mostly in double C...HA

Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/22/2021 12:29:48

Sep 22, 2021 - 9:01:52 PM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

I agree Don,
Allison's and Tony's version of this great tune is very very beautiful. I just checked the archives and didn't see it there so I guess it was posted in a thread featuring Tony's wonderful version of this tune. Allison brings magic to everything She ever does...Thanks for the great link, I'd forgotten just how great Tony Furtado's  arrangement was...Jack   p.s. I still teach tons of clawhammer tunes in double C--Don't want to get run off BHO...:-)  pps. I must admit that I prefer Jim Mills playing over Jens' great playing...

Originally posted by Don Borchelt

Jack wrote: “p.s. to be honest, I got tired of seeing almost every clawhammer tune or fingerpicking banjo tune in double C when often, it's not needed...”
 

Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/22/2021 21:08:03

Sep 23, 2021 - 6:18:20 AM

7247 posts since 11/4/2005

Sep 23, 2021 - 9:21:39 PM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Hi Don,
I'm not quite sure I get the point of posting your short blurb of what appears to be Rick Van Patten's attempted version of I Will. The tab I posted was much more complete and therefore I thought might be more useful to use and learn from. I did take liberties with it of course to present a more compete rendering of Tony's beautiful arrangement with some of my own ideas as I always have done with my tabs on BHO. I almost always get my ideas from recordings and perhaps a few videos on You Tube...

If the point of your posting the link to the tab was to show the double C tuning version well cool but not that much to work with...Just my opinion of course. If my tabs are no longer all that important on BHO that's totally cool with me as I'm kept very busy with Zoom and online teaching. But surely you could give us a little more red meat.....stay safe Don...Jack

Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/23/2021 21:24:33

Sep 24, 2021 - 4:15:38 AM
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7247 posts since 11/4/2005

Jack wrote above: "Allison's and Tony's great version of this great tune is very very beautiful. I just checked the archives and didn't see it there so I guess it was posted in a thread featuring Tony's wonderful version of this tune. "

I posted it, Jack, because you said you couldn't find it in the archives.  Rick's tab is take on what Tony is doing.  I thought you wanted to see it.

Ideallly, BHO discussions should be about broadening the members' overall understanding of the possibilities of the banjo, not solely to promote one's personal talent.  It's not a zero sum game, we can do both.

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 09/24/2021 04:28:45

Sep 24, 2021 - 5:22:08 AM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Don,
A morning Homily is really not needed. I of all people know how and why to contribute material here on BHO. Rick's tab is hardly a representation of Tony's great arrangement. I simply expanded and completed the full arrangement. But thanks for your wonderful contribution to the BHO. BTW I didn't ask for Rick's abbreviated tab...J

Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/24/2021 05:25:53

Sep 24, 2021 - 9:26:31 PM

banjo_nz

New Zealand

41 posts since 3/10/2006

Jack,
I downloaded the .tef but it looks a bit wonky. Shows the 5th string tuned to G# and then played at fret -1?

I realise you have a capo on the first fret but maybe it would be better to have it all (including the stave) in C rather than C# with just a comment to say capo-1

 

PS - it sounds fabulous - just a little hard to follow

Edited by - banjo_nz on 09/24/2021 21:27:36

Sep 24, 2021 - 11:21:22 PM
Players Union Member

janolov

Sweden

41209 posts since 3/7/2006

quote:
Originally posted by banjo_nz

Jack,
I downloaded the .tef but it looks a bit wonky. Shows the 5th string tuned to G# and then played at fret -1?

I realise you have a capo on the first fret but maybe it would be better to have it all (including the stave) in C rather than C# with just a comment to say capo-1

 

PS - it sounds fabulous - just a little hard to follow


I think you have an old version of TablEdit. I have had the same problem with some other tab before I downloaded the latest version. 

Sep 25, 2021 - 2:52:33 AM

banjo_nz

New Zealand

41 posts since 3/10/2006

I updated to latest version of TablEdit and that fixes the g# 5th string. However I'm still seeing the stave in C# - actually in C but with every note raised a 1/2 step compared to what the tab is showing.

Sep 25, 2021 - 5:34:33 AM
Players Union Member

janolov

Sweden

41209 posts since 3/7/2006

Jack's tab shows the banjo tuned to G# instead of G, or all strings capoed to 1st fret (the fifth capoed or spiked at 6 fret). I haven't analysed if the original recording was in G or G# but Earl Scruggs often tuned his banjo to G#, so I guess a lot of other Bluegrass players also do so.

Sep 25, 2021 - 6:05:31 AM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

I'm not getting the big deal here. I just arranged the song with dropped C tuning and capoed up 1 fret for fun and put the song in C#...It's my interpretation of Tony's song that's all. If it's too weird to play well that's ok....there is nothing complicated going on here. I've taught it to several students without any problem at all. I think people on BHO analyze songs far too much....Jack   p.s. the problem is as it often is, people are still just beginning banjo and are playing a song far over their heads....J

Originally posted by banjo_nz

 

Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/25/2021 06:12:02

Sep 25, 2021 - 6:08:57 AM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Jan,
I arranged and played this song in dropped C and capoed up to C# that all, not G anything tuning...I tink people who are not very advanced are taking on this song without the ability to play it...far too much analysis going on here...people either like the arrangement or not and that is totally fine with me...J
Originally posted by janolov

Jack's tab shows the banjo tuned to G# instead of G, or all strings capoed to 1st fret (the fifth capoed or spiked at 6 fret). I haven't analysed if the original recording was in G or G# but Earl Scruggs often tuned his banjo to G#, so I guess a lot of other Bluegrass players also do so.


Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/25/2021 06:10:01

Sep 25, 2021 - 6:55:07 AM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Hi Bryan,
Just play the song as is and don't worry about the stave so much...just pretend the capo isn't there at all. You'll have a much easier time of it...good luck...Jack
 
Originally posted by banjo_nz

I updated to latest version of TablEdit and that fixes the g# 5th string. However I'm still seeing the stave in C# - actually in C but with every note raised a 1/2 step compared to what the tab is showing.


Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/25/2021 06:55:51

Sep 25, 2021 - 7:46:05 AM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Tune your banjo to dropped C and don't look back, just play the dang thing...jack

Originally posted by Jack Baker
Hi Bryan,
Just play the song as is and don't worry about the stave so much...just pretend the capo isn't there at all. You'll have a much easier time of it...good luck...Jack
 
Originally posted by banjo_nz

I updated to latest version of TablEdit and that fixes the g# 5th string. However I'm still seeing the stave in C# - actually in C but with every note raised a 1/2 step compared to what the tab is showing.


 


Sep 25, 2021 - 1:19:45 PM

7104 posts since 8/30/2004

Thanks Michael,
People are having fits over this one and I just don't know why...Jack

Originally posted by corcoran

This is beautiful, Jack.


Sep 25, 2021 - 6:55:14 PM

7247 posts since 11/4/2005

janalov wrote: "Jack's tab shows the banjo tuned to G# instead of G, or all strings capoed to 1st fret (the fifth capoed or spiked at 6 fret). I haven't analysed if the original recording was in G or G# but Earl Scruggs often tuned his banjo to G#, so I guess a lot of other Bluegrass players also do so."

Jan, I assume you meant to write C#, and not G#, which is the actual pitch of the key it is performed in on Furtado's record. I wondered about that; was it because Furtado likes to tune a semi-tone sharp, like the Foggy Mountain Boys in their Mercury years, or was it to suit Allison Krauss's comfortable vocal range? I did do a little research, and sure enough the song was recorded in the same 1991 recording sessions in Nashville that produced the other tunes on Furtado's banjo album, Within Reach. Krauss would later include it on an album of her own released in 1995; I Will was the only cut on her album recorded at the earlier session for Furtado's banjo album. I checked five of the other cuts on Furtado's album, and they were all pitched in G, C or D, so he doesn't tune high routinely. So it must have been pitched in C# to accommodate Krauss's vocal range. Still, he might have tuned up rather than capo; playing with the capo on the first fret can be pretty confusing. Though maybe not for Tony Furtado; what a monster on the banjo.

By the way, the Beatles sang I Will in F.

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 09/25/2021 18:56:49

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