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Aug 27, 2021 - 5:20:40 AM

phb

Germany

2978 posts since 11/8/2010

I have been having an earworm for a couple of days and it is only a single banjo lick played at the end of a line. I don't have a recording which I could slow down to figure it out, only this memory of something that I must have listened to recently. I don't think it is an invention of mine, it's probably a well-known lick. I tried to figure it out on the banjo just from the sound in my head but that has proven rather difficult. It seems to sound something like this but it is not quite it:

---------------------------------------0-----------------------------------------
---1-p-0----------------------------------------------------------0------------
--------------2--------------------------------------3-p-2---------------0----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------0---------------------------------------------------------

Boldface marks notes played on the beat. Any ideas? 

Aug 27, 2021 - 6:39:58 AM

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

26392 posts since 8/3/2003

IF the lick is only one bar long and in 4/4 time , then it would be counted as this: 1e & 2 & 3e & 4.

So the beat notes would be the 1po0 then the open 5th, then the the 3p-2 and then the open 3rd string.

This may not be correct as I'd need to hear the lick to be sure of my timing, but just looking at the notes, that's what I get.

Aug 27, 2021 - 7:37:16 AM
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phb

Germany

2978 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo

IF the lick is only one bar long and in 4/4 time , then it would be counted as this: 1e & 2 & 3e & 4.

I think the lick starts on the 2nd quarter note of the measure and the open G string is then the 1 of the next measure.

Aug 27, 2021 - 8:35:18 AM

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

26392 posts since 8/3/2003

I'd just have to hear the lick to be able to know the beat is and how it sounds.

Aug 27, 2021 - 9:30:22 AM

phb

Germany

2978 posts since 11/8/2010

Going through everything I listened to on Sunday while driving back from the "Banjoree", I eventually found it. It seems to be a small snippet from a longer passage (not really a break):

 

Flatt & Scruggs - Don't This Road Look Rough and Rocky
 

The part that stuck with me starts at about 2:04/05 with those fast pull-offs and ends at around 2:07/08. I'll see if I have time to transcribe the whole thing some time soon.

Edited by - phb on 08/27/2021 09:32:32

Aug 27, 2021 - 7:26:04 PM
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12268 posts since 6/2/2008

I don't havebanjo in hand to confirm this, but it sounds like a standard D to G (V to I) lick with the first section working out of the D chord shape. I definitely play the final section starting on the high G note on the count of 2. 

Aug 28, 2021 - 9:08:19 AM
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808 posts since 10/4/2018

It sounds to me like a typical D lick where the pull off is from the 4th fret, 3rd string to the 2nd fret, 3rd string and ending with a g lick.

2   -  e    &         1  &   2- e &  - a    1
----------------0-|---------0----------0-|------------
-p----3----------|------------0---p-----|------------
4-2--------------|0-------------3-2-----|0----------
------------4-----|------------------------|------------
-------------------|----0------------------|------------

Edited by - Good Buddy on 08/28/2021 09:15:23

Aug 28, 2021 - 10:41:23 AM

808 posts since 10/4/2018

I forgot, you have to capo to the first fret to be in tune with F&S.

Aug 28, 2021 - 11:07:24 AM

193 posts since 5/21/2020

quote:
Originally posted by phb

I have been having an earworm for a couple of days and it is only a single banjo lick played at the end of a line. I don't have a recording which I could slow down to figure it out, only this memory of something that I must have listened to recently. I don't think it is an invention of mine, it's probably a well-known lick. I tried to figure it out on the banjo just from the sound in my head but that has proven rather difficult. It seems to sound something like this but it is not quite it:

---------------------------------------0-----------------------------------------
---1-p-0----------------------------------------------------------0------------
--------------2--------------------------------------3-p-2---------------0----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------0---------------------------------------------------------

Boldface marks notes played on the beat. Any ideas? 

 


Hi Philip

I am sure I have come across this C Lick before. Looks a lot like something Banjo Ben might play

I tried to upload a PDF .TEF File and a Midi File but I have no Idea how to do this

Aug 28, 2021 - 7:12:23 PM

12268 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Good Buddy

It sounds to me like a typical D lick where the pull off is from the 4th fret, 3rd string to the 2nd fret, 3rd string and ending with a g lick.

2   -  e    &         1  &   2- e &  - a    1
----------------0-|---------0----------0-|------------
-p----3----------|------------0---p-----|------------
4-2--------------|0-------------3-2-----|0----------
------------4-----|------------------------|------------
-------------------|----0------------------|------------


Banjo still not in hand, but this looks like what I'm hearing. It can start a little earlier on an open 4th. I see you're counting it in 2/4 with sixteenths and eighths instead of 4/4 eights and quarters.

Aug 30, 2021 - 12:10:44 AM

phb

Germany

2978 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by Good Buddy

It sounds to me like a typical D lick where the pull off is from the 4th fret, 3rd string to the 2nd fret, 3rd string and ending with a g lick.

2   -  e    &         1  &   2- e &  - a    1
----------------0-|---------0----------0-|------------
-p----3----------|------------0---p-----|------------
4-2--------------|0-------------3-2-----|0----------
------------4-----|------------------------|------------
-------------------|----0------------------|------------


Yes, that must be it. I can hear the F# note and the standard lick that follows clearly now. Something before the D-shape part you tabbed still confuses me and just listening to the section again and again still doesn't make my ear identify the pull-off as a full-note pull-off but that's certainly just my ear and the speed at which this happens.

Thanks for your help everyone!

Aug 30, 2021 - 12:19:29 PM
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12268 posts since 6/2/2008

This is what I hear. Just worked it out in headphones.

Don't know why I can't make it appear any larger in the message window.


Edited by - Old Hickory on 08/30/2021 12:26:41

Aug 30, 2021 - 2:45:49 PM
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12268 posts since 6/2/2008

Note that in the second measure, I didn't hear a 4-2 pull off on third string or a simultaneous D note (2nd string, 3rd fret). To my ear, the notes at 4th and 2nd fret on 3rd are individually sounded. Today, we may play this type of thing in single-string style, alternating thumb and index. Tony Trischka teaches that Earl did moves like this by double-thumbing or double-indexing.

Something else I don't clearly hear, but put in it here anyway, is the open 2nd string as the last note of the 3rd measure.

Aug 30, 2021 - 7:05:18 PM
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808 posts since 10/4/2018

This is how I hear the whole phrase. In 2/2 timing, the first note would be a quarter note rest followed by three quarter notes. The second measure is all 8th notes, the third measure is all 8th notes except the pull-off which are two 16th notes, the 4th measure is two quarter notes followed by two 8th notes, the pull off are two 16th notes then there's an 8th note, and the last measure is incomplete and as far as I want to go.


1 & 2 & ..1 &a 2 e & a....1 e & a 2 - e & a 1 & 2- e  & - a  1
------------|----4-------------|0------0----------0|------0---------0|------------
------------|---3--------------|-----------p--3-----|---------0---p---|------------
------------|--------------2---|--2------4-2-------|0----------3-2---|0----------
--5--4--2-|0-----0--4-----0|-----0----------4---|-------------------|------------
------------|-------------------|---------------------|----0--------------|------------

Edited by - Good Buddy on 08/30/2021 19:10:23

Aug 30, 2021 - 7:39:08 PM
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808 posts since 10/4/2018

Sorry, the second measure has a quarter note followed by 8th notes...I hate the way it looks, so here's a (hopefully) clearer rendering.


Edited by - Good Buddy on 08/30/2021 19:40:11

Aug 31, 2021 - 2:31:26 AM

phb

Germany

2978 posts since 11/8/2010

Wow, thanks again! The "confusing" part right before the rather normal D-shape lick (2nd half of the measure) and the last standard lick with those many notes on the 4th string is sure interesting.

Aug 31, 2021 - 8:42:55 AM
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12268 posts since 6/2/2008

Listening in headphones, I hear a faint second banjo in the background. I don't know if there really was a second banjo playing at the same time or if this recording had an early version of multi-tracking, but it's in there.

For what it's worth, to my ear if I play my transcription along with the record it sounds right with no missing or extra notes (except for maybe the open 2nd string at the 3-2 pull-off mentioned earlier). But I admit this one was tougher than I expected and I could be hearing it wrong.

In any event, this discussion shows there are multiple ways to play more or less the same thing.

I'm certain that whatever Earl was playing, it was out of the D chord shape. So I expect the D note against the D chord to be 2nd string 3rd fret and not 1st string open. The open string D note would be part of the ending G chord lick.

At least that's what I think.

Sep 1, 2021 - 12:23:21 AM

phb

Germany

2978 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory

Listening in headphones, I hear a faint second banjo in the background. I don't know if there really was a second banjo playing at the same time or if this recording had an early version of multi-tracking, but it's in there.

I never hear more than one banjo playing at the same time but the banjo sometimes is very faint. If this was recorded in a single-microphone live setup, Earl was probably holding the banjo sideways and away from the microphone for the singing parts which made his banjo almost unhearable.

 

For what it's worth, to my ear if I play my transcription along with the record it sounds right with no missing or extra notes (except for maybe the open 2nd string at the 3-2 pull-off mentioned earlier). But I admit this one was tougher than I expected and I could be hearing it wrong.

In any event, this discussion shows there are multiple ways to play more or less the same thing.

And it is also a good demonstration why it is important to transcribe stuff. Over time one builds some experience with a player's style and what that player probably played which is, of course, very helpful for learning the style. And then sometimes you have to revise some of that when you hit on something unusual. When I tabbed out what I thought I remembered I found that it looked rather unusual with a pull-off from 2nd string C and probably a dragged right hand index but then I didn't know it was something I remembered from Earl's playing.

 

I'm certain that whatever Earl was playing, it was out of the D chord shape. So I expect the D note against the D chord to be 2nd string 3rd fret and not 1st string open. The open string D note would be part of the ending G chord lick.

At least that's what I think.


I would also think that 3rd fret 2nd string is more likely that closely to a 4-2 pull-off on the 3rd string than an open 1st string.

Sep 1, 2021 - 12:52:05 PM

12268 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by phb
I never hear more than one banjo playing at the same time but the banjo sometimes is very faint. If this was recorded in a single-microphone live setup, Earl was probably holding the banjo sideways and away from the microphone for the singing parts which made his banjo almost unhearable.

Two reasons I thought it was two banjos was (1)  I didn't think playing off-mic would be that much softer and (2) I thought I heard extremely quiet notes playing in between his louder notes, such as the 4th string notes at 2:02 and 2:03.

But now I'm coming around to thinking you're right. (1) It was probably a very directional mic and Earl probably could play off-mic and softer but then turn to play loudly with solid force in the space of 1 count.  (2)  I think the additional notes I'm hearing are mandolin.

You're right: In parts of the song, Earl is playing so softly you can barely hear him.

Sep 2, 2021 - 12:52:58 AM
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phb

Germany

2978 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
It was probably a very directional mic

That was the part I thought but didn't know how to express in writing. A very directional mic.

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