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Do you consider the pandemic to be temporary or permanent?

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Aug 4, 2021 - 8:02:30 AM
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1307 posts since 9/6/2019

None, just like you never studied under one either, yet you feel free to spout your opinions regarding how the vaccine will save the world and eradicate COVID when it is being proven every day that people can still be infected despite being vaccinated. Actually, if you look back at many of the past pandemics of influenza, no vaccine was responsible for stopping them. But, since you suddenly require full confirmation from medical experts, here are a couple who say the same thing I just did:

medicalxpress.com/news/2021-02...ears.html

statnews.com/2021/05/19/how-th...e-future/

Oddly enough, I haven't seen you ask a single person who agrees with your non-MD medical opinions what doctors they studied under. I wonder why?

Aug 4, 2021 - 8:13:47 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

20388 posts since 6/30/2015
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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy Lindblom

I don’t see it to be any more or less dangerous than a flu but I realize it is different. 


Then you are not paying attention.  It is more contagious, more deadly, and has more long term affects.  The flu kills 20,000 to 40,000 people a year in the U.S.  Covid has so far killed 630,000 people in a year and a half.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-vs-flu/art-20490339

Aug 4, 2021 - 8:42:59 AM
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74963 posts since 5/9/2007

I don't need to study under a doctor to know what works and what doesn't.I just need to pay attention to what's going on and the results of decisions made.
Places that have low percentages of vaccinated people are filling up the hospitals needlessly.

All the understanding one needs is to see the rise in serious cases.
What other analyzing needs to be done?
The solution is simply get a shot.The arguments against doing so go on and on and on to try and spin things in ways that have nothing to do with reality or saving the most lives of our dear brothers and sisters of earth.

Aug 4, 2021 - 8:54:02 AM
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DC5

USA

20388 posts since 6/30/2015
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quote:
Originally posted by steve davis

I don't need to study under a doctor to know what works and what doesn't.I just need to pay attention to what's going on and the results of decisions made.
Places that have low percentages of vaccinated people are filling up the hospitals needlessly.

All the understanding one needs is to see the rise in serious cases.
What other analyzing needs to be done?
The solution is simply get a shot.The arguments against doing so go on and on and on to try and spin things in ways that have nothing to do with reality or saving the most lives of our dear brothers and sisters of earth.


So you don't need to study under a doctor, but you require others to?  My documented background with viruses, and evolution is much greater than yours, so I would say that I am better equipped to observe what is happening, and what works and what doesn't.  As stated, 75% of the new Delta cases in Massachusetts have been fully vaccinated, and they can spread the disease.  Why do you chose to ignore this information?  Getting the shot will help, it will not eliminate the virus, or the disease.  The people who don't get the shot, but do get infected and survive, will also build up a level of immunity.  Those that die will no longer be able to spread the disease.  The great majority of people will never get sick at all.  Already we are seeing that even though infections and hospitalizations are increasing, the death rate is slowing down by several magnitudes.  A year ago April we were losing in excess of 3,000 people a day In the U.S.   Now it is fewer than 100.  The vaccination is helping with the lower death rates, along with altered variants of the virus itself. 

Aug 4, 2021 - 9:00:54 AM

1307 posts since 9/6/2019

quote:
Originally posted by steve davis

I don't need to study under a doctor to know what works and what doesn't.I just need to pay attention to what's going on and the results of decisions made.
Places that have low percentages of vaccinated people are filling up the hospitals needlessly.

All the understanding one needs is to see the rise in serious cases.
What other analyzing needs to be done?
The solution is simply get a shot.The arguments against doing so go on and on and on to try and spin things in ways that have nothing to do with reality or saving the most lives of our dear brothers and sisters of earth.


No, but you demand the credentials of anyone who corrects "what you know" when you are wrong. You are correct, places with low percentages of vaccinated people are getting a lot of hospitalizations. But places with high percentages of vaccinated people are also seeing high numbers of cases among fully vaccinated people which kind of disproves what you say about the vaccine making the pandemic go away. There are also people who are fully vaccinated who are going to the hospital and dying, which is exactly what I said. You act as though no one who is vaccinated is dying or going to the hospital even after it has been pointed out several times that, while not in great numbers, you are wrong and they are. But you continue on that path saying that all we have to do is get the shot and this will all go away. So I want to know who you studied under to make that claim even though people who have studied that very thing say differently.

I'm not arguing against getting the shot, which would be silly since I'm vaccinated, nor am I trying to spin anything. I just pointed out that the shot isn't going to stop this anymore than a shot stops the flu every year. That is reality. Maybe not your reality but the reality of the experts, including Dr Fauci who you praise as being the one guy everyone should listen to, who are saying this is going to be endemic for at least several years. I thought you were a "follow the science" person? Well, the science and those who get paid to study it are all saying that the virus is still going to spread. So are you "follow the science" or "only follow the parts of the science that you agree with"?

Aug 4, 2021 - 9:02:34 AM

12480 posts since 1/15/2005
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis

As long as enough people can suck it up and get shots we'll be fine.
Nobody wants anyone else to die from Covid do they?


75% of the new Delta cases in Massachusetts are with vaccinated people, not unvaccinated.  Just gettin everyone the shot is not going to be enough, and we will never get everyone to take the shot.


Boy, talk about a bummer.  Unfortunately, statistics like that are sure not going to help convince people they need to take the vaccine.  Fortunate (I think) that the number hospitalized that have had the vaccine are way below that ..... although I have heard some alarming figures from the UK.

Edited by - BanjoLink on 08/04/2021 09:07:59

Aug 4, 2021 - 9:03:54 AM

Owen

Canada

9567 posts since 6/5/2011
Online Now

 "The great majority of people will never get sick at all."   

Thank you, thank you, thank you..... though I'd be inclined to put it: The GREAT majority.... etc. 

And that ^^ doesn't diminish the over-all seriousness, or the seriousness to those that get infected or their families .... just puts things in a more realistic light..... hopefully counter a wee bit of the fear-mongering.

Aug 4, 2021 - 9:04:42 AM

12480 posts since 1/15/2005
Online Now

The world is pretty simple for residents of Port Clyde, Maine. Too bad that most of us that do not live there have to deal with more complicated things!

Aug 4, 2021 - 10:13:31 AM

74963 posts since 5/9/2007

quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis

I don't need to study under a doctor to know what works and what doesn't.I just need to pay attention to what's going on and the results of decisions made.
Places that have low percentages of vaccinated people are filling up the hospitals needlessly.

All the understanding one needs is to see the rise in serious cases.
What other analyzing needs to be done?
The solution is simply get a shot.The arguments against doing so go on and on and on to try and spin things in ways that have nothing to do with reality or saving the most lives of our dear brothers and sisters of earth.


So you don't need to study under a doctor, but you require others to?  My documented background with viruses, and evolution is much greater than yours, so I would say that I am better equipped to observe what is happening, and what works and what doesn't.  As stated, 75% of the new Delta cases in Massachusetts have been fully vaccinated, and they can spread the disease.  Why do you chose to ignore this information?  Getting the shot will help, it will not eliminate the virus, or the disease.  The people who don't get the shot, but do get infected and survive, will also build up a level of immunity.  Those that die will no longer be able to spread the disease.  The great majority of people will never get sick at all.  Already we are seeing that even though infections and hospitalizations are increasing, the death rate is slowing down by several magnitudes.  A year ago April we were losing in excess of 3,000 people a day In the U.S.   Now it is fewer than 100.  The vaccination is helping with the lower death rates, along with altered variants of the virus itself. 


I don't "require" anything.I challenge those that think they are above what the world's best scientists and doctors have told us to do.

Who in the world thinks they have some kind of knowledge to challenge the best minds in the world.

The efficacy of the vaccine is out front for everyone to see.Millions of shots given to date and excellent survival numbers.

Anything else is science fiction and hardly worth debating such a weak argument based only in politics and fairy tales.I do require people that I pay attention to having a basic level of common sense.

Aug 4, 2021 - 10:40:21 AM
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dawgdoc

USA

9132 posts since 8/25/2004

quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy

None, just like you never studied under one either, yet you feel free to spout your opinions regarding how the vaccine will save the world and eradicate COVID when it is being proven every day that people can still be infected despite being vaccinated. Actually, if you look back at many of the past pandemics of influenza, no vaccine was responsible for stopping them. But, since you suddenly require full confirmation from medical experts, here are a couple who say the same thing I just did:

medicalxpress.com/news/2021-02...ears.html

statnews.com/2021/05/19/how-th...e-future/

Oddly enough, I haven't seen you ask a single person who agrees with your non-MD medical opinions what doctors they studied under. I wonder why?


Well, not to pull rank, but I HAVE studied under epidemiologists and bioethicists and have a paper currently under peer review on a history on pandemics especially on how the US has dealt with it since 1901.  To claim vaccines haven't been responsible for stopping a pandemic is simply patently untrue.  The second article you cite focuses only on the flu and the author seems to find it a direct corollary of COVID.  The author completely skipped over polio and ignored smallpox (which is odd because she's studied polio).  The point is, the article is about the flu. 

To say there was no vaccine in back then is sorta true.  Nobody understood vaccines, so they went to extraordinary measures.  As late as the late 1800, there's records of cutting open pustules of folks who survived and injecting it in others (I haven't found any data whether it actually worked, but the seed of idea was in place). 

I still contend, though, that the largest argument for masking/vaccination should be based on an ethical argument of global human health.  On the other hand, one could make a larger argument that Malthus was right....

Aug 4, 2021 - 10:53:36 AM

dawgdoc

USA

9132 posts since 8/25/2004

quote:
Originally posted by Timothy Lindblom

I don’t see it to be any more or less dangerous than a flu but I realize it is different. 


its VERY different.  I just got off the phone with a doc friend of mine on a completely unrelated issue and he simply said 'I'm really exhausted from this two week surge in my clinic'.   His rural hospital went from zero beds in ICU with covid to 13 in a week.

His last comment to me was 'have you EVER seen anything in medicine this politically polarizing'. 

Schools are starting up in two weeks give or take.  I have three courses starting up involving advanced anatomy and physiology (one specifically focusing on COVID).  I have two versions of each course ready.  One is for in class and one is for remote learning.  At this point, we just don't know what to expect.  

Aug 4, 2021 - 11:19:32 AM
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donc

Canada

6731 posts since 2/9/2010

This explains


 

Aug 4, 2021 - 11:23:28 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

20388 posts since 6/30/2015
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis

I don't need to study under a doctor to know what works and what doesn't.I just need to pay attention to what's going on and the results of decisions made.
Places that have low percentages of vaccinated people are filling up the hospitals needlessly.

All the understanding one needs is to see the rise in serious cases.
What other analyzing needs to be done?
The solution is simply get a shot.The arguments against doing so go on and on and on to try and spin things in ways that have nothing to do with reality or saving the most lives of our dear brothers and sisters of earth.


So you don't need to study under a doctor, but you require others to?  My documented background with viruses, and evolution is much greater than yours, so I would say that I am better equipped to observe what is happening, and what works and what doesn't.  As stated, 75% of the new Delta cases in Massachusetts have been fully vaccinated, and they can spread the disease.  Why do you chose to ignore this information?  Getting the shot will help, it will not eliminate the virus, or the disease.  The people who don't get the shot, but do get infected and survive, will also build up a level of immunity.  Those that die will no longer be able to spread the disease.  The great majority of people will never get sick at all.  Already we are seeing that even though infections and hospitalizations are increasing, the death rate is slowing down by several magnitudes.  A year ago April we were losing in excess of 3,000 people a day In the U.S.   Now it is fewer than 100.  The vaccination is helping with the lower death rates, along with altered variants of the virus itself. 


I don't "require" anything.I challenge those that think they are above what the world's best scientists and doctors have told us to do.

Who in the world thinks they have some kind of knowledge to challenge the best minds in the world.

The efficacy of the vaccine is out front for everyone to see.Millions of shots given to date and excellent survival numbers.

Anything else is science fiction and hardly worth debating such a weak argument based only in politics and fairy tales.I do require people that I pay attention to having a basic level of common sense.


You specifically asked what epidemiologist did someone study under.  That is asking for credential, of which you have provided none for yourself. 

I, and others who have responded to you are not challenging the best minds in the world, in fact, I am in total agreement with them.

The vaccine is not now, and never has been 100% effective.  And now it is being shown that it is not that effective against the Delta variant.  This is from the experts, not from me, or anyone else.  Vaccinated people are getting sick, going to hospitals, and dying.  This is verifiable fact.  It is in smaller numbers than unvaccinated, but it is still happening.  The laws of evolution will not allow this virus to be eliminated.  It will be here for many many years, if not for the rest of human existence.  It will, in all likelihood, evolve into a less deadly form, as that would be it's greatest strength to survive.  This is the simple science of evolution that any introductory biology class would teach you.

This is all available to you, if you pay attention.  But to save you some time, here is a link to the CDC report regarding the outbreak in Massachusetts.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm?s_cid=mm7031e2_w

Here's an article about vaccinated people getting sick, hospitalized, and dying.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/06/26/cdc-4115-fully-vaccinated-have-been-hospitalized-or-died-with-breakthrough-covid-19-infections/?sh=44563b3f6993

So I turn it right back on you.  "Anything else is science fiction and hardly worth debating such a weak argument based only in politics and fairy tales.I do require people that I pay attention to having a basic level of common sense."  Common sense, and scientific data say that the vaccine is not the be all and end all that you claim.  It is you that is living in a fairy land if you cannot see this. 

Aug 4, 2021 - 11:26:29 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

20388 posts since 6/30/2015
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by dawgdoc
On the other hand, one could make a larger argument that Malthus was right....

I'm beginning to agree with this more and more.

Aug 4, 2021 - 1:34:49 PM
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conic

England

914 posts since 2/15/2014

its permanent if you take the mark of the beast, satan will be waiting to greet you

Aug 4, 2021 - 1:52:56 PM

1307 posts since 9/6/2019

quote:
Originally posted by dawgdoc
quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy

None, just like you never studied under one either, yet you feel free to spout your opinions regarding how the vaccine will save the world and eradicate COVID when it is being proven every day that people can still be infected despite being vaccinated. Actually, if you look back at many of the past pandemics of influenza, no vaccine was responsible for stopping them. But, since you suddenly require full confirmation from medical experts, here are a couple who say the same thing I just did:

medicalxpress.com/news/2021-02...ears.html

statnews.com/2021/05/19/how-th...e-future/

Oddly enough, I haven't seen you ask a single person who agrees with your non-MD medical opinions what doctors they studied under. I wonder why?


Well, not to pull rank, but I HAVE studied under epidemiologists and bioethicists and have a paper currently under peer review on a history on pandemics especially on how the US has dealt with it since 1901.  To claim vaccines haven't been responsible for stopping a pandemic is simply patently untrue.  The second article you cite focuses only on the flu and the author seems to find it a direct corollary of COVID.  The author completely skipped over polio and ignored smallpox (which is odd because she's studied polio).  The point is, the article is about the flu. 

To say there was no vaccine in back then is sorta true.  Nobody understood vaccines, so they went to extraordinary measures.  As late as the late 1800, there's records of cutting open pustules of folks who survived and injecting it in others (I haven't found any data whether it actually worked, but the seed of idea was in place). 

I still contend, though, that the largest argument for masking/vaccination should be based on an ethical argument of global human health.  On the other hand, one could make a larger argument that Malthus was right....


If it's patently untrue then your argument is with those quoted in the article. And the reasons behind the ability to stop polio and smallpox were already discussed by dave, primarily the fact that they didn't spread as fast.

And for the third time, and hopefully the last, I never once argued against vaccines or wearing masks. I'm vaccinated and I wear a mask when required. I also never said they weren't helping, I said that people were still going to get infected and that people are still going to die which is already a proven fact. The only thing I have said against the vaccine is that I don't agree with mandating an experimental drug. Do medical ethics support forced participation in medical experimentation?

Since COVID spreads in the exact same manner as the flu, only more, it is reasonable to compare the likelihood of it becoming endemic like the flu. Steve is trying to say that vaccines will make the pandemic go away when even the scientists he says we aren't qualified to disagree with say the opposite. I'm not arguing against the scientists, I'm agreeing with them.

Aug 4, 2021 - 2:06:36 PM
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6824 posts since 7/24/2013

quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis

As long as enough people can suck it up and get shots we'll be fine.
Nobody wants anyone else to die from Covid do they?


75% of the new Delta cases in Massachusetts are with vaccinated people, not unvaccinated.  Just gettin everyone the shot is not going to be enough, and we will never get everyone to take the shot.


It's like no one had to take a statistics class. If we ignore briefly the fact that literally 99% of all Covid hospitalizations are among the unvaccinated and just look at that statistics we have to look at them honestly. If 100% of Massachusetts was vaccinated then 100% of all cases would be among the vaccinated. (Sounds like a scary number) With the number of vaccinated people in the community that the 75% number came from (Provincetown), having  a 70% vaccination rate, the statistical chances of getting Covid are much lower even though 75% of the new cases there were among the vaccinated. It scares me that Florida is willing to pull school funding for schools that require masks when our country doesn't even understand how basic denominators work in math.

Edited by - South Jersey Mike on 08/04/2021 14:09:09

Aug 4, 2021 - 2:17:37 PM
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1572 posts since 1/28/2013

quote:
Originally posted by conic

its permanent if you take the mark of the beast, satan will be waiting to greet you


No one will able to buy or sell except those that have taken the Mark of the Beast, or the number which is it's name.

Aug 4, 2021 - 2:21:43 PM

1572 posts since 1/28/2013

quote:
Originally posted by South Jersey Mike
quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis

As long as enough people can suck it up and get shots we'll be fine.
Nobody wants anyone else to die from Covid do they?


75% of the new Delta cases in Massachusetts are with vaccinated people, not unvaccinated.  Just gettin everyone the shot is not going to be enough, and we will never get everyone to take the shot.


It's like no one had to take a statistics class. If we ignore briefly the fact that literally 99% of all Covid hospitalizations are among the unvaccinated and just look at that statistics we have to look at them honestly. If 100% of Massachusetts was vaccinated then 100% of all cases would be among the vaccinated. (Sounds like a scary number) With the number of vaccinated people in the community that the 75% number came from (Provincetown), having  a 70% vaccination rate, the statistical chances of getting Covid are much lower even though 75% of the new cases there were among the vaccinated. It scares me that Florida is willing to pull school funding for schools that require masks when our country doesn't even understand how basic denominators work in math.


It's like saying, 75% of Patients who are admitted to a Cardiac Unit have a history of Heart Attacks.The number means nothing, and they can't even prove the deaths from the virus were actually caused by the virus.

Aug 4, 2021 - 2:23:35 PM

chuckv97

Canada

59541 posts since 10/5/2013
Online Now

I like the no. 666,,, has a nice ring to it. 

Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/04/2021 14:24:22

Aug 4, 2021 - 2:24:23 PM

1572 posts since 1/28/2013

quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy
quote:
Originally posted by dawgdoc
quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy

None, just like you never studied under one either, yet you feel free to spout your opinions regarding how the vaccine will save the world and eradicate COVID when it is being proven every day that people can still be infected despite being vaccinated. Actually, if you look back at many of the past pandemics of influenza, no vaccine was responsible for stopping them. But, since you suddenly require full confirmation from medical experts, here are a couple who say the same thing I just did:

medicalxpress.com/news/2021-02...ears.html

statnews.com/2021/05/19/how-th...e-future/

Oddly enough, I haven't seen you ask a single person who agrees with your non-MD medical opinions what doctors they studied under. I wonder why?


Well, not to pull rank, but I HAVE studied under epidemiologists and bioethicists and have a paper currently under peer review on a history on pandemics especially on how the US has dealt with it since 1901.  To claim vaccines haven't been responsible for stopping a pandemic is simply patently untrue.  The second article you cite focuses only on the flu and the author seems to find it a direct corollary of COVID.  The author completely skipped over polio and ignored smallpox (which is odd because she's studied polio).  The point is, the article is about the flu. 

To say there was no vaccine in back then is sorta true.  Nobody understood vaccines, so they went to extraordinary measures.  As late as the late 1800, there's records of cutting open pustules of folks who survived and injecting it in others (I haven't found any data whether it actually worked, but the seed of idea was in place). 

I still contend, though, that the largest argument for masking/vaccination should be based on an ethical argument of global human health.  On the other hand, one could make a larger argument that Malthus was right....


If it's patently untrue then your argument is with those quoted in the article. And the reasons behind the ability to stop polio and smallpox were already discussed by dave, primarily the fact that they didn't spread as fast.

And for the third time, and hopefully the last, I never once argued against vaccines or wearing masks. I'm vaccinated and I wear a mask when required. I also never said they weren't helping, I said that people were still going to get infected and that people are still going to die which is already a proven fact. The only thing I have said against the vaccine is that I don't agree with mandating an experimental drug. Do medical ethics support forced participation in medical experimentation?

Since COVID spreads in the exact same manner as the flu, only more, it is reasonable to compare the likelihood of it becoming endemic like the flu. Steve is trying to say that vaccines will make the pandemic go away when even the scientists he says we aren't qualified to disagree with say the opposite. I'm not arguing against the scientists, I'm agreeing with them.


Doctor who was part of the team developing a novel covid vaccine platform tells Laura a mistake was made (msn.com)  They knew this months ago but ignored it. The virus spike proteins will later start attacking the cells of your organs. It also goes directly into Womens ovaries.

Aug 4, 2021 - 2:33:15 PM

3819 posts since 4/29/2012

quote:
Originally posted by jan dupree
....The virus spike proteins will later start attacking the cells of your organs. It also goes directly into Womens ovaries.

Thanks for the info (though I haven't bothered researching its truth as most of yor previous medical advice has been garbage). Luckily I am fully vaccinated so will only be exposed to the minuscule, harmless and short term amounts of virus spike protein used to provoke an immune reaction rather than the massive amounts produced by a Covid infection. Whew - Dodged a bullet there.  

Aug 4, 2021 - 2:52:36 PM

conic

England

914 posts since 2/15/2014

says the medical expert

Aug 4, 2021 - 3:19:01 PM
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banjoy

USA

9850 posts since 7/1/2006

Well, since this thread went off the rails a while back, what the heck...

666 Fifth Avenue
New York, NY 10019

What more ya need to know?

Aug 4, 2021 - 3:24:58 PM
like this

10488 posts since 8/22/2006

Oh my gawd the anti christ has his own address who knew.

Ehh not so worried by that but when that number shows up on a right hand or forehead of folks then I’ll start to worry. Or when someone’s head spins 360 degrees and projectile vomit pea soup. Houston we have a problem!!

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