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Do you consider the pandemic to be temporary or permanent?

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Aug 2, 2021 - 10:58:03 AM
11505 posts since 2/22/2007

I am thinking that this might be one of the factors determining our various responses. Some are frustrated that so many of their neighbors refuse to undertake temporary inconveniences to eliminate this threat once and for all.
Others believe that there is no "once and for all", that this is now a permanent fixture of our lives and are refusing to accept this new normal of masking, distancing, and government by endless emergency executive orders.

So how does your view of the duration of the pandemic affect your view of appropriate behavior due to the pandemic? Does your willingness to mask, etc. have any limit?

Aug 2, 2021 - 11:00:50 AM
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6824 posts since 7/24/2013

The disease will be permanent. The pandemic, with reasonable people, will not. I imagine a flu type situation.

Aug 2, 2021 - 11:08:59 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

19976 posts since 6/30/2015

I agree with Mike. The disease will be with us forever, but hopefully in a less fatal adaptation.

Aug 2, 2021 - 11:17:02 AM
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Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

26327 posts since 8/3/2003

I think it will end up like other diseases: a vaccine will take care of most of the cases of it, just like the flu vaccine does now. Some people will take boosters (if it's found that they are necessary, and they probably will be) and others will not take the shot just like people now don't take the flu shot.

At this point, with a vaccine that works on the majority of people (and like any vaccine, some people will have a reaction to it), there's no reason we should have to mask for the rest of our lives or social distance. And, without getting into politics, there's no reason the government should have to come in and rescue those who don't get the vaccine and get sick.

Aug 2, 2021 - 11:24:03 AM

Bill Rogers (Moderator)

USA

25143 posts since 6/25/2005

I’m in line with Sherry: Pandemic will end; the illness will always be with us, as will an annually tweaked vaccine. Masks? Who knows? If the contagion level maintains, mask usage will likely be permanent.

Aug 2, 2021 - 11:38:59 AM

1193 posts since 12/2/2013

Sherry, are you saying what I think you're saying, ( there's no reason the government should have to come in and rescue those who don't get the vaccine and get sick) that those who opt out of vaccines deserve what happens next?

Aug 2, 2021 - 11:44:26 AM

2152 posts since 2/12/2009

It will stay forever, new viruses are appearing on our radar all the time. I have often been called a crackpot but, I think along with global warming we are beginning to see how our world will end. Might be a hundred years or several hundred years but , life as we know it is slipping away , Earths next master race could well be viruses, there I have said it now !

Aug 2, 2021 - 11:54:17 AM
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donc

Canada

6703 posts since 2/9/2010

If there is such a thing as herd immunity we will eventually get there. Without vaccines and other precautions there will be millions of additional deaths before we reach the 80% of our own or the world's population. The Swine flu of 1921 was similar to Covid-19. It took 4 years for it to run its course. By 1925 the world was able to get back to normal again. We really don't want another 3 1/2 years of this.

Edited by - donc on 08/02/2021 11:57:05

Aug 2, 2021 - 12:04:39 PM
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Brian T

Canada

18569 posts since 6/5/2008
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I think it is both nasty and chronic, I'm afraid.
If your business expects me to wear a mask, I'll wear a mask.
If you advise that a mask is optional, I won't wear one, knowing that I am clean and Vaxx.

I'm tired of all the bleating, spittle and regurgitation of uneducated news opinions, NOT science.
I'm done with the testimonials of drama, it diminishes your brain capacity, not mine.

Aug 2, 2021 - 12:28:04 PM
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12414 posts since 1/15/2005

I agree with most of the replies. I think we will see more masks during the "whatever" season .... flu, covid, colds, etc., much like we do in Asian countries. Hopefully, those citizens who contract whatever viruses will be the ones wearing the masks to keep from spreading. I think we will see more social distancing, especially in lines at fast food restaurants and check-out lines at businesses. Also, more hand washing. Hopefully, everyone will be more aware when they have a sniffle or some other malady and either stay home or don a mask. I think at least the half of the population that understand the necessity of vaccine shots will do this.

Aug 2, 2021 - 12:32:12 PM

1938 posts since 2/4/2013

The prelude.

Aug 2, 2021 - 12:55:30 PM

rcc56

USA

3704 posts since 2/20/2016

Considering the current atmosphere, it's likely it will be with us for quite a while.
If attitudes change, it might be over sooner.

One thing that many people do not seem to understand is that nature is stronger than man.

Aug 2, 2021 - 2:40:35 PM

3805 posts since 4/29/2012

Any reason why it shouldn't follow the trajectory of the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic ? This had 4 successive waves over 2 years and then disappeared. Like most of us here (including the self-appointed experts) I'm not a virologist or epidemiologist so I don't know.

Aug 2, 2021 - 2:46:48 PM

banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

11505 posts since 2/22/2007

Well, nobody knows what it will do or what is going to happen. The question is, is your attitude and personal response to this pandemic dependent upon your best guess as to how long this will continue?
In other words, is your willingness to comply based upon the idea that this will soon pass, or are you willing to live the rest of your life masked, in lockdown, with government by continuing emergency decree, or is there a point at which you say "enough"?

Aug 2, 2021 - 3:09:08 PM
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2430 posts since 3/29/2008
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewD

Any reason why it shouldn't follow the trajectory of the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic ? This had 4 successive waves over 2 years and then disappeared. Like most of us here (including the self-appointed experts) I'm not a virologist or epidemiologist so I don't know.


The Spanish Flu never really disappeared - it just faded into the background and eventually became one of the normal flus that kill some number of people each year. The spanish flu virus H1N1 (I believe) was the same basic virus as Swine Flu about a decade ago.

I reckon the same will happen with COVID. It'll just fade into the background and take some number of lives each year, but go out of fashion. It'll eventually become the Crocs of the virus world.

Edited by - Edthebanjo on 08/02/2021 15:13:22

Aug 2, 2021 - 3:16:46 PM
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rcc56

USA

3704 posts since 2/20/2016

My decisions are based upon what I believe is best for my well-being and the well-being of others that I might come into contact with. At this point, any guesses about how long this will continue are not coloring my decisions.

I have continued to wear a mask in the grocery store. I might return to limiting my public circulation any day now.

I'm not going to argue with anyone over this thing anymore. Let the chips fall where they may.

There is no lockdown here at this time, nor has there been any for a long time. And there are no "continuing emergency government decrees," except for one that was issued on Friday requiring masks in city-owned buildings.  And I have no problem with that.

Edited by - rcc56 on 08/02/2021 15:21:08

Aug 2, 2021 - 3:33:36 PM

banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

11505 posts since 2/22/2007

Bob, one example of an emergency decree was the CDC issuing a moratorium on evictions. They did not have the legal authority to do that, but they did that anyway (and we all may wind up paying for that "free rent"). Also the restrictions on travel, and quarantines when crossing state lines, the shutting down some stores while allowing their competitors to remain open, etc. This was a command ordering of our economy rarely seen before outside of wartime, with questionable legal authority to do that, which varies state by state.

Aug 2, 2021 - 3:50:52 PM
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rcc56

USA

3704 posts since 2/20/2016

quote:
Originally posted by rcc56


I'm not going to argue with anyone over this thing anymore. Let the chips fall where they may.
 


Aug 2, 2021 - 4:00:44 PM

3234 posts since 10/17/2009

Does the pandemic consider you to be temproary or permanent?

Aug 2, 2021 - 4:10:51 PM
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dawgdoc

USA

9130 posts since 8/25/2004

The last true case of small pox was I think 1949.  Oh, it still exists in mutated form, but it's not a death sentence.  Why?  Vaccine mandates.

One of the problems with this is it didn't hit kids badly like polio.  The first vaccine simply caused a huge percentage of polio.  But once the 'cutter incident' was solved,  it all but disappeared.  Vaccine mandates.  History is hard to learn from.

Then came that idiot who claimed MMR vaccine caused autism.  Not only was his license yanked, it was found he had two huge conflicts of interest.  But that caused irreparable harm.  Vaccine mandates.

we are not fiscally going to get out of this for awhile, but the solution for shortening the impact is staring us in our faces, but past history, selfish pride, and politics suggests this going to be a long haul.

Aug 2, 2021 - 7:18:51 PM

Enfield1858

England

128 posts since 8/1/2020

I think it's worth remembering that, at one time, the plain old common cold was a "new and deadly virus" - as all viruses were, to start with.  That might sound unbelievable, but consider this; in 1961, a previously dormant volcano erupted on the tiny island of Tristan da Cunha.  As Tristan is a British Overseas Territory (though governed by a Council of the Islanders), the British government offered the islanders a passage to England and accommodation. Problems arose because Tristan's nearest source of supplies was South Africa - over 1700 miles away.  That meant that by the time ships reached Tristan, any bugs picked up by the crew in South Africa had long since died off - so none of the Islanders had ever come into contact with germs or viruses which are familiar to us.  Within days of them arriving in England, young, fit and healthy Islanders were being rushed to hospital, going into intensive care units, and being put on oxygen support - because they had caught the common cold!  Many of them middle aged and older, even though in fine physical condition, died of colds - the sort which to us just means a few days in bed, at worst.

Judging from that, I've no doubt that when the common cold (which is also a corona virus) first reached us in the dim and distant past, it hit us just as hard as it did the Islanders from Tristan - yet now, to most people, the common cold is just a nuisance.  In time, as we build herd immunity to Covid 19 in the same way we have for colds and flu, it will only be a threat to those with serious underlying health issues - just as flu and pneumonia are now.

Every winter in Britain, well over 10,000 people a year die of flu; in the winter of 2014-2015, the death toll topped 20,000 - yet how many people demanded that everyone wear face masks, stayed 2 metres away from other people, and that trade, industry and education should be shut down when winter flu hit us then?  Nobody, to my knowledge.  According to NHS statistics, over ten times as many people are dying in Britain of flu and pneumonia now as are dying of Covid-19. They're keeping very quiet about how many people are dying of cancer after their treatment, scans and operations were all summarily cancelled in March last year, by the NHS, with the government's blessing, to "prevent hospitals being overwhelmed by Covid cases!"  And those treatments stayed cancelled - even when it became obvious that there was no danger of hospitals being overwhelmed.

Yet, to read the scare stories, you'd think that Covid 19 was killing more than every other disease put together.  Like colds, flu, and taxes - Covid is here to stay. And it won't wipe out humanity, any more than did the common cold.

Jack

Aug 3, 2021 - 4:45:07 AM
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Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

26327 posts since 8/3/2003

quote:
Originally posted by flyingsquirrelinlay

Sherry, are you saying what I think you're saying, ( there's no reason the government should have to come in and rescue those who don't get the vaccine and get sick) that those who opt out of vaccines deserve what happens next?


Don't try to put words in my mouth.  I'm not saying they deserve what happens to them, those are your words, not mine.

I think people should be able to make decisions on their own life for themselves.  If they decide to not take the vaccine, then the gov't should not have the authority to force them to take the vaccine.  If they get the disease then it's up to them to take care of what happens to them, not the gov't.   

Aug 3, 2021 - 5:14 AM

4327 posts since 12/6/2009

When and if the government will get out of the health care business and give it back to the experts....all will return to intelligent salvation.

Aug 3, 2021 - 5:20:37 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

19976 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by Enfield1858

Every winter in Britain, well over 10,000 people a year die of flu; in the winter of 2014-2015, the death toll topped 20,000 - yet how many people demanded that everyone wear face masks, stayed 2 metres away from other people, and that trade, industry and education should be shut down when winter flu hit us then?  Nobody, to my knowledge.  According to NHS statistics, over ten times as many people are dying in Britain of flu and pneumonia now as are dying of Covid-19. They're keeping very quiet about how many people are dying of cancer after their treatment, scans and operations were all summarily cancelled in March last year, by the NHS, with the government's blessing, to "prevent hospitals being overwhelmed by Covid cases!"  And those treatments stayed cancelled - even when it became obvious that there was no danger of hospitals being overwhelmed.

Yet, to read the scare stories, you'd think that Covid 19 was killing more than every other disease put together.  Like colds, flu, and taxes - Covid is here to stay. And it won't wipe out humanity, any more than did the common cold.

Jack


Can you provide a link to this claim?  Since the start of the pandemic the UK has lost 129,743, that is substantially higher than the  20,000 who died of influenza in 2014-15.  So it makes no sense that 10 times as many people are dying now from flu and pneumonia than C-19.  The maths just don't work out. 

Aug 3, 2021 - 8:58:18 AM
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Enfield1858

England

128 posts since 8/1/2020

@DC5 - "Can you provide a link to this claim?"

No problem - an extract from the article reads as follows, showing that it's actually over 13 times as many:
"The latest weekly data on deaths from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) show that there were 84 deaths mentioning Covid in the week ending June 11. There were 1,163 involving flu and pneumonia."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/22/flu-pneumonia-deaths-now-ten-times-higher-covid/

The government-claimed total death toll due to Covid is utterly unreliable in two ways; firstly, because it was made far worse than it needed to have been in March - May last year because the government, their advisers, Public Health England and the NHS bosses ignored the data available from the outbreak on the cruise liner 'Diamond Princess'.  This ship, cruising in the Far East, had an outbreak of Covid 19 on board, and was put into quarantine.

At that time no vaccine was available; a high proportion of the passengers were elderly, and a cruise liner is about as good an environment for a virus to run wild as you could find anywhere, numerous repeat tests were carried out on those on board and the data was carefully collected and analysed from the numbers who didn't get infected / did get infected but were asymptomatic / became moderately ill / seriously ill / or died.  What did that data show?  That Covid 19 only posed a serious threat to those who were elderly and / or had serious underlying health issues - in other words, the same group who are also vulnerable to ordinary flu.

So what did the government and NHS bosses decide to do?  They listened to the scare stories from the team at Imperial College, London, led by Neil Ferguson, who have a 20 year track record of their predictions of the infections and deaths from viruses proving spectacularly wrong - not just by a large percentage, but by several orders of magnitude - on such pandemics as SARS in humans and foot and mouth in livestock.  On that basis, they decided that hospitals were in danger of being overwhelmed by Covid cases, so they chose to turf THOUSANDS of frail elderly people out of NHS hospitals and into care homes for the elderly, WITHOUT testing them first to check if they were infected with Covid - so sending those carriers into places filled with people who are elderly and many of whom have serious underlying health issues!  Can you imagine any better way to boost the death toll from Covid? But it didn't stop there.  Public Health England ( a government-funded body) was asked to ensure that all care home staff, and medics who make routine calls to elderly people in their own homes, were provided with PPE to prevent them spreading the infection.  Manufacturers of such equipment went into overdrive, expecting big orders from PHE . . . and waited . . . and waited . . . and then started sending e-mails to PHE, saying that they had huge quantities of PPE in stock for immediate shipment, and all they needed was an order.  This went on for 2 to 3 weeks, with no orders placed, and - right in the middle of this fiasco - all PHE staff were given the normal four days off work for the Easter weekend!

And all that time, care home staff were spreading Covid throughout the care homes and amongst their elderly clients still living at home, and the death toll amongst that group soared.  Is it any wonder there was a massive spike in deaths through the spring and early summer last year?

As for hospitals being 'overwhelmed by Covid patients', that never happened.  Last year, I heard of just one hospital (not a very big one) which ran out of beds, and the ambulance service just diverted patients to another local hospital. The government also commissioned nine emergency hospitals - the Nightingale Hospitals - which were built in a matter of 10 days by private contractors and Army engineers. They had a combined capacity of thousands - but only two of them were ever used (for a couple of months), and they counted their total number of patients in dozens. The other seven never opened at all - as nurses in ordinary NHS hospitals were reporting hardly seeing any patients at all:
https://dailysceptic.org/2020/10/10/latest-news-exclusive/

An extract from that interview with an NHS nurse, with over 20 years experience, and currently working in an 800+ bed NHS hospital:

Q. Did you see any Covid patients under 20 years old?  "No."
Q. Did you see any Covid patients under 50 years old?  "No."
Q. What was the general age range of the Covid patients?  "Over 70."
Q. Were their symptoms any different to other serious respiratory viruses that you had seen and treated in the past?  "The Covid patients presented no differently to any other respiratory illness, which most Covid patients already had a history of anyway. Previous to Covid we would see patients with the same symptoms in conditions like exacerbation of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, community acquired pneumonia, hospital acquired pneumonia, some types of heart failure, sepsis and general frailty."

Just to ram that point home, the Office of National Statistics (government body) said that the total number of people in England and Wales who were under the age of 60, with no serious underlying health issues, who died of Covid in the whole of 2020 amounted to 388 - and that's out of a population (England and Wales) of nearly 60 million people.

You want more?  An article was written by Dr John Lee, a pathologist, about the way that deaths were being officially recorded as 'Covid deaths' which rendered the official numbers meaningless. Unfortunately, it was published in the 'Spectator' magazine (paywall) - though if you wish, you can subscribe free for a month, and cancel before the end of the months and pay nothing:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-way-covid-deaths-are-being-counted-is-a-national-scandal

Alternatively, if you PM me, I'll happily e-mail you a transcript of the whole article - but here's an extract:
" . . nowhere are autopsy studies more important than in the study of new diseases and new treatments. The best example of this in recent years was acquired immune deficiency syndrome, or AIDS. When AIDS first appeared in the early 1980s no one knew what it was, how it affected victims, how to treat it, or what effects potential treatments had. Knowledge about all of these aspects was substantially acquired by study of tissue samples taken during life, and by autopsy examinations, with study of samples acquired after death. There was much uncertainty and worry at the time about how the disease was spread, and possible contagion to healthcare workers and to the general population. But work continued, and the results were of immense help in understanding the disease and developing treatments.
Normally, two doctors are needed to certify a death, one of whom has been treating the patient or who knows them and has seen them recently. That has changed. For Covid-19 only, the certification can be made by a single doctor, and there is no requirement for them to have examined, or even met, the patient. A video-link consultation in the four weeks prior to death is now felt to be sufficient for death to be attributed to Covid-19. For deaths in care homes the situation is even more extraordinary. Care home providers, most of whom are not medically trained, may make a statement to the effect that a patient has died of Covid-19. In the words of the Office for National Statistics, this ‘may or may not correspond to a medical diagnosis or test result, or be reflected in the death certification’. From 29th March the numbers of ‘Covid deaths’ have included all cases where Covid-19 was simply mentioned on the death certificate - irrespective of positive testing and whether or not it may have been incidental to, or directly responsible for, death. From 29th April the numbers include the care home cases simply considered likely to be Covid-19.
So at a time when accurate death statistics are more important than ever, the rules have been changed in ways that make them less reliable than ever. In what proportion of Covid-19 ‘mentions’ was the disease actually present? And in how many cases, if actually present, was Covid-19 responsible for death? Despite what you may have understood from the daily briefings, the shocking truth is that we just don’t know."

If you find that hard to believe, check this government website;  I quote:
"Total number of deaths since the start of the pandemic of people who had had a positive test result for COVID-19 and died within 28 days of the first positive test."
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

So, if you have a dodgy heart, terminal cancer, and a failing liver, but test positive for Covid infection within 28 days of dying, your death is officially recorded as "a Covid death."  Hell, if you die in a road accident within 28 days of testing positive, that still counts as a 'Covid death' according to the government's own definition!

Finally, if you look at this government website, listing annual deaths in England and Wales, from all causes, over the last 30 years (compiled by the Office of National Statistics), you'll see that the figure only drops below 500,000 during the period 2009-2012 (and 2012 was only just).  From 2015 to 2019, it ranges from roughly 525,000 to 540,000.  In 2020, it was 608,000 - and when you allow for the massive spike in deaths in care homes early last year, that statistic - plus the article by Dr John Lee - puts the government's claimed 'death toll from Covid' in considerable doubt.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsintheukfrom1990to2020

But believe what you want - I'm done.

With best regards,
Jack

Aug 3, 2021 - 9:10:54 AM

Buddur

USA

3064 posts since 10/23/2004

Permanent.

...the new normal.

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