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Aug 1, 2021 - 2:04:23 PM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

11600 posts since 2/22/2007

We are not going to discuss what I dangle here.

Aug 1, 2021 - 2:06:41 PM

1316 posts since 9/6/2019
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quote:
Originally posted by South Jersey Mike
quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

They define "anti-vaxxer" as those opposed to vaccines AND------AND---those who oppose laws requiring vaccination. So someone who supports vaccines, takes vaccines, encourages others to take vaccines is STILL an "anti-vaxxer" because they do not ALSO support laws mandating vaccines.


I'm not sure that's an accurate interpretation of the definition at the link. First, it doesn't say "AND."  It says "OR":  "a person who opposes vaccination or laws that mandate vaccination"

I agree i'ts ambiguous.  I certainly think a person who believes in and supports voluntary vaccination -- and may have even been vaccinated -- cannot be fairly called an anti-vaxxer if all they object to is legally mandated vaccination.

It's not clear to me that Merriam-Webster is saying they should be.

On the other hand -- It's also not clear to me there are many people who believe in vaccination, support vaccination, and have been vaccinated but who also happen to oppose government mandated vaccination. Or phrased the other way: How many people who oppose government-mandated vaccination otherwise believe in and support vaccination?

For what it's worth, mandated vaccination is Constitutional, according the US Supreme Court in Jacobson v Massachusetts, a 1905 case involving mandatory smallpox vaccination. In the majority opinion, Chief Justice Harlan wrote: "the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand."  As far as I know, this is still the law of the land.


You say it's not clear that there are people who support vaccination but reject government mandates, but from what I have seen right here on BHO that represents the majority. Very few are actually favoring mandated vaccination. My objection, as it applies to the covid vaccine, is I see mandates for an unapproved vaccine as a manndate to subject to medical experimentation. I got the vaccination as did everyone in my family other than my son, but I don't agree with mandating it while it is still under an EUA. 


I wouldn't use the BHO as a representation of the majority. It's a bunch of old white dudes who play the banjo. We're a niche' sample group at best :) 


This isn't the only circle I run in and the same attitude is prevalent elsewhere. I only know a couple people who are adamantly against the vaccine and everyone else got it as soon as it was available but none of them think it should be mandated. And since you brought up the whole "old white dude" thing, black folks, as a whole, aren't flocking to the voluntary vaccinations and none that I know are in favor of mandates either. 

Aug 1, 2021 - 2:11:41 PM

12303 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by South Jersey Mike
quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy
You say it's not clear that there are people who support vaccination but reject government mandates, but from what I have seen right here on BHO that represents the majority. Very few are actually favoring mandated vaccination. My objection, as it applies to the covid vaccine, is I see mandates for an unapproved vaccine as a manndate to subject to medical experimentation. I got the vaccination as did everyone in my family other than my son, but I don't agree with mandating it while it is still under an EUA. 

I wouldn't use the BHO as a representation of the majority. It's a bunch of old white dudes who play the banjo. We're a niche' sample group at best :) 


Thanks. I was going to suggest as much. Plus, the self-selecting, not randomly solicited, comments of members here can't be taken as representative of Hangout membership in general let alone the population as a whole.

But, OK. For what it's worth I'll acknowledge some small number people in fact may fully believe in and support COVID vaccination while not supporting government-mandated vaccination.

Aug 1, 2021 - 2:35:28 PM

12303 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy
This isn't the only circle I run in and the same attitude is prevalent elsewhere. I only know a couple people who are adamantly against the vaccine and everyone else got it as soon as it was available but none of them think it should be mandated. 

The other circles you run in are no more representative of the population as a whole than the Hangout.

Why do I say this? Because a survey on this very question was taken last week and the results reported yesterday. The survery by Morning Consult found that more than 75% of respondents who have been vaccinated said they support mandates.   

Across the survey as a whole, "some three in five U.S. adults support vaccination requirements for employees, residents or customers by employers; businesses; schools; and local, state and federal governments" according an article about the survey on MarketWatch.

Only 1/3 of the unvaccinated agree the government should mandate vaccination. 38% of Republicans oppose mandated COVID vaccination.

Aug 1, 2021 - 3:54:20 PM

1316 posts since 9/6/2019
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy
This isn't the only circle I run in and the same attitude is prevalent elsewhere. I only know a couple people who are adamantly against the vaccine and everyone else got it as soon as it was available but none of them think it should be mandated. 

The other circles you run in are no more representative of the population as a whole than the Hangout.

Why do I say this? Because a survey on this very question was taken last week and the results reported yesterday. The survery by Morning Consult found that more than 75% of respondents who have been vaccinated said they support mandates.   

Across the survey as a whole, "some three in five U.S. adults support vaccination requirements for employees, residents or customers by employers; businesses; schools; and local, state and federal governments" according an article about the survey on MarketWatch.

Only 1/3 of the unvaccinated agree the government should mandate vaccination. 38% of Republicans oppose mandated COVID vaccination.


Overall less than 60% support mandates and the margin of error isn't stated so potentially closer to 50% say they support mandates. Also, a poll of 2000 people, while a good indicator of what people are thinking, doesn't represent the population as a whole either. Just look at all of the polls in the past couple presidential elections. Put it to a vote and see what people want. As I said, my objection is mandating an unapproved vaccine. If it gets approval fair play. 

Aug 1, 2021 - 4:05:58 PM

3243 posts since 10/17/2009

Actions matter more than words?

From an epidimiolgy standpoint, vaccines definition seems apt when comes to dealing with infectious diseaes. That it's human to human infectous... vaccine campaign isn't just to protect the individual, but costs to rest of society, and main goal is to prevent the spread (including reduce mutation/variants).

It's a bit like fire supression... like how burn bans are mandated. It's not just about the individual and their property (that they aren't worried about their burning); but that it costs to society to deal with their individual fire; and importantly that can easily spread to others. To claim that you individually agree with taking fire prevention and supression measures for yourself... but then don't think neighbors need to?

----------

As far as words... what do they mean "mandate"? AFAIK it simply allows others to restrict, refuse unvaccinated individual to participation; but includes individual choice to refuse.; choose self-imposed limitations.

Edited by - banjoak on 08/01/2021 16:19:09

Aug 1, 2021 - 5:40:26 PM

58300 posts since 12/14/2005

In the event of a dangling particle, simply do what the Blue Bear family does.

Aug 1, 2021 - 6:39:44 PM

12303 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy
Overall less than 60% support mandates and the margin of error isn't stated so potentially closer to 50% say they support mandates. 

The margin of error is not going to be 16.7% (1/6 of 60) which is what it would take to reduce a result of 60% to 50%

quote:
Originally posted by Banjonewguy
Also, a poll of 2000 people, while a good indicator of what people are thinking, doesn't represent the population as a whole either. Just look at all of the polls in the past couple presidential elections. 

The science and math of polling says 2,000 randomly selected people can in fact be representative of the nation as a whole. And while it is undeniably true that the polls the past two presidential cycles failed to accurately measure Trump's support, that's not a failing of sample size but of sample composition. This could be an ongoing problem for pollsters.

But, again, the amount of error in the presidential polls is nowhere near the amount of error you're suggesting here.

I understand that you'll change your position on a mandate when the vaccines are FDA approved. I also understand there's no empirical data that says a majority feels the same way.

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