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Jun 24, 2021 - 4:35:31 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

A backpack device exists that uses 1 Tbsp. of water @ 2000 PSi from a gallon reservoir to use going down a hallway of a burning building. You shoot your way in to rescue and shoot your way out. Not for the timid. But it works.

I think we could scale that up to the use of a digital concept like many small bursts up against burning flames instead of the analog method of dumping retardant.

the airplanes take too long to turn around, even those skimming from lakes.

But artillery from the ground with compressed air catapults and rapid deployment would be very effective in steering a fire, while waiting for the jbombers to refuel.

The Russians defeated the Germans at the Battle of Bagration by overlapping 155mm blasts that stopped a column of mechanized infantry that was one mile wide and ten miles long, just the size of a forest fire.

We have military veterans with experience whom I would love to employ using upside down blasts of precious water to kill forest fires.

We could fight at night and on the run. Vessels can be pre-positioned on the ridges, just like the USFS does with water bags and short handled broad axes.

I know many banjo players want some trees to make great banjos from. Keep the trees safe.

Let's hear some ideas.

Edited by - Helix on 06/24/2021 04:38:39

Jun 24, 2021 - 5:00:46 AM

phb

Germany

2925 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by Helix

A backpack device exists that uses 1 Tbsp. of water @ 2000 PSi from a gallon reservoir to use going down a hallway of a burning building. You shoot your way in to rescue and shoot your way out. Not for the timid. But it works.


How did they test it to make sure it works? I recently had to train as a workplace fire alarm assistant (or whatever a fitting English description may be) and learned that the problem with going down a hallway of a burning building really is that you inhale very hot gases that will almost instantly fry your alveoles which inevitably leads to suffocation (even if you were put into an oxygen tent immediately afterwards). I doubt that a tablespoon of water or the whole gallon would reduce temperatures enough to avoid this.

Jun 24, 2021 - 8:09:12 AM

133 posts since 4/14/2021

We had some extremely severe fires in my neighborhood last year. The Creek fire was one of the worst in California history. Right in my "backyard" so to speak. 375,000 acres, thousands of structures, 15 lives lost

The problem with fighting fires in this particular area is access. Water cannons, trucks, even personnel are impossible to get into these remote areas. No roads, thick brush, very steep inclines. The ONLY way is to attack it from the air.

This particular fire had no known (at least publicly known) origin. If "They" know, "They" ain't talkin'!

Years of drought, forest mismanagement, and bark beetle (non-native invasive species) infestation all contributed to the perfect storm.

By mismanagement, I mean it is because of people who live up in that area. Natural fires caused by lightening (common in the summer) are not allowed to burn out as it would in nature. In years past, excess fuel was harvested by timber companies. This no longer happens. So dead trees, brush, and other fuels accumulate.

Drought is just a part of California weather patterns. Yes we do have climate change which contributes, but not the only cause.

Bark beetle infestation attacks trees weakened by drought. Kills the trees, which dry out and bring an explosive element.

It was ugly. The fire was sweeping through so fast, that some people barely got out with their lives.

On the other hand, some species of trees here need fire for seed propagation. The Giant Sequoia being one of them. Hopefully in 20 or 30 years, the scars will no longer be visible.

It's a good idear Helix. Whether it could be made to work in remote wilderness is a great question!

Jun 24, 2021 - 10:00 AM

10446 posts since 8/22/2006

You want to cut down on the beetle infestation well I have a solution and it does not require any chemicals. By using battery power with solar panels to recharge the batteries during the day as the power source. Keep this in mind when I present my idea. I have seen this work at my home.

Set up fluorescent lights.Banks of these lights in the highly infested areas. Have you seen the bugs that are drawn to the lights? I have and it’s amazing the beetles that are drawn to them. Seperate out the good bugs from the beetles using college kids or volunteers. Or pay them a wage. Oh you would use screens under the lights to capture the insects. I've done this at home. We live in the middle of towering pines and the first year I tried this and was amazed at the small pine beetles that were attracted to my light.

Edited by - 5B-Ranch on 06/24/2021 10:03:00

Jun 24, 2021 - 11:36:37 AM

4115 posts since 11/29/2005

I think you need a (at least partially) closed environment to use the steam conversion concept. We used it quite successfully on chimney fires when I was a FF/EMT in the Sierra Nevada range. A cup of water, open the fire-box door, throw the water in, close the door and Whoom! the water flashes to steam, sucking most of the heat out of the fire, and the flames extinguish. At that point, you begin making sure the fire is OUT.

Not sure how that concept would work in the open, though, since the expansion of might not go the direction needed.

Jun 24, 2021 - 12:39:41 PM

Brian T

Canada

18549 posts since 6/5/2008
Online Now

The Martin Mars was impressive but a nearly useless bit of wildfire fighting equipment. Very slow in the sky and needed lakes above a common size for filling. Very slow turn around times and a horror for mechanical maintenance. The smaller planes are far faster, can access far more lakes for rapid response and turn around times. Retardant serves to direct fire away from structures AND provides fertilizer for subsequent recovery.

I have seen the evidence from a wildfire, raced up a hill side so hot and so fast that it swept past the chicken coop BUT it melted the glass windows. That's impressive to me.

A toxic chemical fire plastics, paints, etc) in a building hallway won't be fun to fight. It takes a hose of fan spray to deflect some fire heat for the fire fighters. The back spray is boiling hot.

If there's little or no impact on people or property, most wild fires here are left to play out. Maybe directed or guided a little with back-burns and retardant. Wild fire is a normal part of nature. Serotinous pine cones cannot open without fire heat.

Things here are going to dry up in a hurry. Next 7-10 days will be 30C+ (60-6=54+32=86F). My place is usually very wet, a rainy season. So any prolonged dry spell will fry our countryside..

We have 18,000,000 hectares of dead standing beetle killed pine. You cannot attract the beetles unless they are doing an annual dispersal flight. Otherwise, they are tunneling in the bark to produce egg-laying galleries. The best pheromone trap ever invented is the Lindgren Trap.

Jun 24, 2021 - 1:07:14 PM
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WesB

USA

388 posts since 12/17/2014
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Speaking from a couple of years experience in the industry back in the '60s, water tankers do not put out the fires, nor are they expected to. They are intended (whether using water or slurry) to retard the progress so that boots on the ground can stop the fire. The flash steam method would certainly merit investigation. The only drawback I can think of would be the tendency for the sudden pressure pulse to possibly scatter burning matter further into nearby flammable material.

Another method that has been tested extensively in the west, but hasn't seen much use is Fireline Explosives. This was a large diameter (think almost fire hose size) detonating cord. The explosive core was surrounded by flame-reducing salts and, when detonated, would clear a fairly decent fire break. The problem was that you needed to thoroughly clear the area before using it and this isn't always possible. (There may have been other drawbacks that were encountered. I haven't been following the technology.)

Jun 24, 2021 - 2:43:22 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

Thanks for your responses.

Philipp Boerker: Firefighters wear an oxygen mask with another bottle on their backs, they think of these things ahead of time. Do more research. No fool goes into a building like that, but firefighters will always try to save people. New tools require new thought.

For those who think terrain is the issue, think again, I mentioned pre-positioning on the ridges. I know of Captains and Commanders who want to do this, politicians can also help. Everybody is very serious about this.

Now we discuss the implosive part. The water needs to be in a spray form and delivered in a one gallon vessel like a paper bomb, yes it might ignite, but rice paper has little ash. 3/4 gallon of water pressurized to the correct limit for the vessel will cover 400 sq. ft. with one shot.
The spray is released by a timed and variable fuse making a cone of descending radius which means several can go off at once and cause turbulence to collapse onto a cooler surface, or they can be shot to specific coordinates, rinse and repeat if needed.
a Larger 2 Gallon vessel can be used to cover 800 sq. ft.

Then people could be better protected while catapults and aircraft are in communication. Flare-ups can be better controlled and managed.

The flames rise vertically.
Direct Attack from the ground will give a 43 degree angle of attack,
Direct Attack from the air means the aircraft don't dump their brigade bucket all at once, but they shoot out the side, so they don't get into turbulence above the fire, but fire from the side, again at a 43 degree angle used by archers in battle.


Brian T:A toxic chemical fire plastics, paints, etc) in a building hallway won't be fun to fight. It takes a hose of fan spray to deflect some fire heat for the fire fighters. The back spray is boiling hot.

If there's little or no impact on people or property, most wild fires here are left to play out. Maybe directed or guided a little with back-burns and retardant. Wild fire is a normal part of nature. Serotinous pine cones cannot open without fire heat.

The backpack is not for fighting fires, just for rescue, it works, 

IN British Columbia , I understand there are as many as a hundred fires at any given time during the season.

We don't want to waste resources fighting the wrong fire, and or all of them,  Care is needed introducing variuos material into the environment

Yes, everybody knows about opening pine cones with heat.

Now you can manage the fires better with better tools that don't put pilots nor firefighters in harm's way.

Pulaski saved 17 men.  We lost 19 up in Yarnell, AZ.   Definitely a tragedy for those families who are experiencing real problems with  bureaucracy because some of those men were not full-time.

the Battle of Bagration with overlapping blasts is a fine example of how this could be done.  

You people who live in California should know the only two shops for the entire west coast for the Forest Service are in California.

Arizona just put $100 million into the future of our beautiful timber stands. the White Mountain Apache Community has the finest Ponderosa Pine stand in the world.

Thank you for responding, think, we can help. 


 

Jun 25, 2021 - 5:47:11 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

This photo was taken outside Pratt Kansas in 2012.

The smoke is from the fire in SE Arizona that year, it was visible from Albuquerque, like a static A-bomb, mushroom cloud and all.

Jun 25, 2021 - 5:50:14 AM
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figmo59

USA

34200 posts since 3/5/2008
Online Now

Just add...water...

Jun 25, 2021 - 5:26:35 PM

Brian T

Canada

18549 posts since 6/5/2008
Online Now

We are on a climb here in BC. A few new in the last 48 and 30+ new wildfires this week.
Helicopters with buckets are doing a fine job in impossible terrain with no lakes at all.

Jun 26, 2021 - 6:38:09 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

vessels and equipment are pre-staged on the ridges.

Easy to evacuate and easy to fight more than one at a time during darkness and light with less wear and tear on people.

BC has a certain budget for this kind of thing.
Just add water and get brains?

"Sometimes you just gotta let her burn."

No way.

Lightning and arson can be fought with real solutions.

Prescribed burns can be better managed.

the spy movie would be when the burn got out of hand over at White Sands and they lost some hard drives. Duuuude. True Story.

the People of BC have yet to more fully engage the steward-like approach

Jun 28, 2021 - 3:28:10 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

Thanks for the replies, keep thinking

Jun 29, 2021 - 7:18:53 AM
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11043 posts since 6/17/2003

This was bantered around a few years ago, and it still won't work. Physics doesn't change.

Jun 29, 2021 - 9:30:44 AM

Brian T

Canada

18549 posts since 6/5/2008
Online Now

Nobody in BC believes that the forest needs to be gardened.
Nobody would ever squander the resources for money, people and time to do that.
Of course, you realize that less than 3% of BC is flat, suitable for agriculture.
That's bigger than the UK, New Zealand and Japan altogether.
This summer's planting is 300,000,000 trees.

About 35(?) new wild fires last week. Helicopters with buckets are the most efficient.

Jun 29, 2021 - 9:43:47 AM

410 posts since 5/22/2021

Being a beginner forest-ecologist, I have studied this for a while. I hope I can contribute a bit to this forum.

I believe, in the case of California, that an efficient way to end the wildfires is to (dont be surprised): let the forests burn, unfortunately.

Because after over 100 years of fire-suppression by the National Park Service and U.S Federal Foresters (and the Canadian Federal Government), along with some effects of climate change; dead wood and natural debris have accumulated so much on the forest floor that once a fire starts, it can ravage an entire forest (and, in the case of last year, over 5 million acres). Putting these fires out with water from helicopters and trucks just is not a feasible solution, as it just TEMPORARILY stops the forest from burning (it may start fire again in the next few years, as has been the case for the past 25 years in some parts of California).

In its natural state, untouched by hands of man (think of the 1500s and before), the west-coast forests would naturally burn lightly every few years or so. However, these fires would not be anything like the fires we had last year; they would be mainly weak, and burn up the natural wood debris and fuel that fell on the forest floor (which, in turn, would prevent HUGE forest fires from popping up and destroying the entire forest and land areas).

Anyway, as I said, I do think that letting the forests burn until the woody debris is cleared is one of the few options for us to ensure we get the forest back to its healthy shape efficiently. Another way, though maybe not as efficient, is for the Fed Gov to clean up most of the woody debris over millions of acres of land, so wildfires would not have as much fuel to devour entire tracts (But they should leave some debris).

Anyhow, just my thoughts...

Jun 29, 2021 - 2:41:08 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

gottasmilealot This was bantered around a few years ago, and it still won't work. Physics doesn't change.

If the backpack pressurized spray doesn't work, then why does it., Go play some more banjo

OK, gottasmilealot, now we've heard your considered  thoughtful thread kill, your opinion is so noted.

 

 

BeeEnvironment:  Thank you for coming forward and thanks for taking the time to read correctly.

You are absolutely correct about accumulated debris.

In Lake Tahoe they have 6 feet of debris, tha'ts 72+".

And yes, environmentalists tried to conserve rather than rape the land (Crown Zellerbach stumps forever.)

We all made a few mistakes.  

The infernos we will see in the future could hurt us really bad.

At the Troon fire, the captain told me they knew they were in trouble when they began to dump retardant on them.

We lost 19 people at once in Yarnell, it takes 3 minutes to deploy the personal shelter which has saved 500 people, but they only had no time, zero to deploy.  Pulaski had nothing but a cardboard book of matches to light the back fire with.

The Forest Service shop in Missoula is working on various options.  Fireproof foam is one being explored. 

And you are also correct about which resources to use where.  The Klamath Indians burned the Willamette Valley every year as they came North to the Columbia.  The fire is good, provides nutrients, kills snakes in the grass. opens pine cones.

 

Yes, the forest has evolved with us and us with it.

When we over populate, we get famine and disease.

The Tillamook Burn:  https://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/tillamook_burn/#.YNuTkuhKiUk   1933  , 4 fires in 6 years.

Some of it has not yet grown back because the soil was just burnt away.

 

I am suggesting and proposing we develop tools of the future for the young who follow us.  We want trees to build banjos with.

One of my customers is a firefighter in Alaska, quarantined and had to wait for weeks to see his new banjo

BeeEnvironment:  thanks for contributing, my concept isn't for all fires, but we need new thinking in difficult terrain, military quality fire control, nighttime operations and 300 mph prairie fires with people in the way

No bambi buckets of brine from a skycrane because that is all we have. 

We will mark the Yarnell 19's passing this week.

Edited by - Helix on 06/29/2021 14:59:28

Jun 30, 2021 - 2:13:47 PM
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Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

Today is the 8th Anniversary of the loss of 19 Firefighters, The Granite Mountain Hotshots who perished in a forest fire in Yarnell Arizona.
Rest in loving peace and memory.


Jun 30, 2021 - 5:23:21 PM

Brian T

Canada

18549 posts since 6/5/2008
Online Now

The natural fire cycle in our circumpolar boreal forest = Taiga is every 70-100 years.
Hundreds if not thousands of soil pits and carbon layer dating.
Ever since regen after the most recent ice age.

PacNW coastal forests are not a part of that.
Oddly, there are patches which have not burned in more than 4,000 years.
Examples of inland temperate zone rain forests.
As an example, you can visit Chun T'oh Whudujut, 90 km west of my place. Elevated walkway, wheelchair accessible many, many benches to sit on. The region has a stupid anglo name which I refuse to use.

Jul 1, 2021 - 3:16:41 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

I am suggesting and proposing we develop tools of the future for the young who follow us. We want trees to build banjos with.

Jul 11, 2021 - 1:26:48 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

BeeEnvironment: Anyway, as I said, I do think that letting the forests burn until the woody debris is cleared is one of the few options for us to ensure we get the forest back to its healthy shape efficiently. Another way, though maybe not as efficient, is for the Fed Gov to clean up most of the woody debris over millions of acres of land, so wildfires would not have as much fuel to devour entire tracts (But they should leave some debris).

Anyhow, just my thoughts...


We have inmates fighting fires right now, so clean up and trail maintenance is easy, maybe you could start by contacting the Forest Service in Washington. Then find out which politicians hold the money.

I don't share your opinion about letting them burn.  

Reduction of 72" of Debris in Lake Tahoe will prevent losing everything.

Jul 11, 2021 - 3:09:47 PM

410 posts since 5/22/2021

quote:
Originally posted by Helix

BeeEnvironment: Anyway, as I said, I do think that letting the forests burn until the woody debris is cleared is one of the few options for us to ensure we get the forest back to its healthy shape efficiently. Another way, though maybe not as efficient, is for the Fed Gov to clean up most of the woody debris over millions of acres of land, so wildfires would not have as much fuel to devour entire tracts (But they should leave some debris).

Anyhow, just my thoughts...


We have inmates fighting fires right now, so clean up and trail maintenance is easy, maybe you could start by contacting the Forest Service in Washington. Then find out which politicians hold the money.

I don't share your opinion about letting them burn.  

Reduction of 72" of Debris in Lake Tahoe will prevent losing everything.

 


You make good points. I believe more Fed Gov funds should be directed to the forest service, so they can, in turn hire good, honest, men to help clear the natural wood debris. I totally dont want the forests to burn, but unless the state/gov systems of Canada and USA start to give more resources for CLEARING WOODY DEBRIS (Not on FIGHTING wildfires), in forest lands where debris has accumulated too much, letting the forest burn might be the last and only option, unfortunately. Its a bad scenario, but it would at least almost "reset" a system that has gone too far on the unbalanced scale.

While I usually dont support forced prison labor, in the case of being with nature (which, I think, helps the inmates mentally/emotionally in one way or another), I do support this type of convict labor.

I think we all have to contact our congress people to push the gov to give more resources fro clearing woody debris along the west coast of Canada and USA.

Jul 11, 2021 - 5:07:41 PM
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figmo59

USA

34200 posts since 3/5/2008
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Pave the Planet...
Paint it green....

Jul 11, 2021 - 7:49:22 PM

Brian T

Canada

18549 posts since 6/5/2008
Online Now

Not working out.
1. The boaters REFUSE to allow the water bombers space on lakes to fill up.
2. Drone pilots are flying in the flight paths of the fire fighting aircraft.
$100k fine and 10 years in the shade if you get caught.

Because of the hazards, everybody stands down and let 'er burn.

Jul 12, 2021 - 5:28:50 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

14482 posts since 8/30/2006

the inmates working the fires is NOT forced inmate labor, it's voluntary and they earn time off their sentence.

The Forest Service has great summer jobs for trail maintenance, the funding can be increased.

the concept of having skimmers still uses the bucket brigade mentality.

Remember when somebody wrote this has been "bantered about"?? mixing metaphors doesn't help, "bandied about".

We have had enough of the analog approach. British Columbia can get 125 fires going any given year.

I am introducing a digital concept that goes and actively attacks the flames directly.
the fires can be attacked from cannon or catapult on the ground while the bombers have to go fill up, so there is a constant pressure on the fire.

Don't doubt I have contacted everybody who needs to know. Missoula and Washington, D.C.
My next step is to enlist the support of certain Western Senators who have a political stake in this.

think how well the pressurized backpack works.

I've had people brag about the bambi bucket accuracy.

they use helicopters to light prescribed burns with little ping pong balls.

I was here in 2004 when two forest fires joined up to make a fire storm. the new Calif. charcoal county don't just want to let them burn. The steel in those burnt cars wasn't even on the market in 2010. It's new tech. and we lag behind.

We have surplus AC 130's and people who know how to fly them and shoot out the side out of harm's way.

We just lost another two firefighters in Arizona this week. Wisconsin is on fire.

Please try to stay away from hedgehog mentality.

Contact your congressmen, senators and governors.

Look what happened when Australia caught fire, nobody lives there, no resources and the environmental damage is a lot like the Tillamook Burn, sterilizing.

The budget cycle has already been set for next year. The wheels grind slowly.  the shops in Missoula are working on foam, the innovators got ahead of the government.  The disposable diapers don't burn, so somebody has marketed a barrel you hook up to your hose, 

You foam your house and evacuate, it works. 

As one Captain said to me, " We could DO this?" Remember when Greece caught fire? Identical to Yarnell Arizona's big rocks and impossible combat.

You cannot and should not extinguish all fires.

Knowing about the natural fire cycles never accounts for new real estate development.

All we need to do is "HOLD" a fire from spreading until it burns itself out.  


 

Edited by - Helix on 07/12/2021 05:38:20

Jul 12, 2021 - 6:19:50 AM

410 posts since 5/22/2021

quote:
Originally posted by Helix

the inmates working the fires is NOT forced inmate labor, it's voluntary and they earn time off their sentence.

The Forest Service has great summer jobs for trail maintenance, the funding can be increased.

the concept of having skimmers still uses the bucket brigade mentality.

Remember when somebody wrote this has been "bantered about"?? mixing metaphors doesn't help, "bandied about".

We have had enough of the analog approach. British Columbia can get 125 fires going any given year.

I am introducing a digital concept that goes and actively attacks the flames directly.
the fires can be attacked from cannon or catapult on the ground while the bombers have to go fill up, so there is a constant pressure on the fire.

Don't doubt I have contacted everybody who needs to know. Missoula and Washington, D.C.
My next step is to enlist the support of certain Western Senators who have a political stake in this.

think how well the pressurized backpack works.

I've had people brag about the bambi bucket accuracy.

they use helicopters to light prescribed burns with little ping pong balls.

I was here in 2004 when two forest fires joined up to make a fire storm. the new Calif. charcoal county don't just want to let them burn. The steel in those burnt cars wasn't even on the market in 2010. It's new tech. and we lag behind.

We have surplus AC 130's and people who know how to fly them and shoot out the side out of harm's way.

We just lost another two firefighters in Arizona this week. Wisconsin is on fire.

Please try to stay away from hedgehog mentality.

Contact your congressmen, senators and governors.

Look what happened when Australia caught fire, nobody lives there, no resources and the environmental damage is a lot like the Tillamook Burn, sterilizing.

The budget cycle has already been set for next year. The wheels grind slowly.  the shops in Missoula are working on foam, the innovators got ahead of the government.  The disposable diapers don't burn, so somebody has marketed a barrel you hook up to your hose, 

You foam your house and evacuate, it works. 

As one Captain said to me, " We could DO this?" Remember when Greece caught fire? Identical to Yarnell Arizona's big rocks and impossible combat.

You cannot and should not extinguish all fires.

Knowing about the natural fire cycles never accounts for new real estate development.

All we need to do is "HOLD" a fire from spreading until it burns itself out.  


Great news about the prisoners! I think that is a good thing to do, especially for most of them. Unfortunately, I don't live close enough to a Federal U.S forest, otherwise I would try to get a summer job (as I am in high-school).

You are right with some of your points: you want to hold a fire till it burns out.

However, as I said, holding a fire until it burns out would be VERY hard. Also expensive.

Of course, I believe that protecting people's homes is very important, I think thats what the fire-fighters should be focusing on: protecting the perimeters of the homes. I don't think putting a fire out until it starts up again next year is a good idea (unless they clear the woody debris after the fire is out).

It makes more sense for them to hold a fire until it burns out, and then clear that 72" of woody debris at lake tahoe and the thousands of other places in the mountains of the west.

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