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Jun 19, 2021 - 1:49:51 PM

Bill H

USA

1648 posts since 11/7/2010

I'm looking for some advice on executing this four note roll in the first measure of this tab. I have been practicing it TITI. I miss the second TI often. The tune is tabbed out in a combo of single string and melodic. My intent is to play the melody note for note--the tune is a traditional contradance tune in 6/8 time.

I know I can experiment and practice it different ways, but since I am in the learning stage of three finger playing I was interested in seeing how others might approach a 4-note forward roll.

Thanks.


 

Jun 19, 2021 - 2:02:09 PM

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

26068 posts since 8/3/2003

It looks like it is in waltz time and would be counted 1 & 2 (& 3), 1 & 2 & 3 &, 1 & 2(& 3). The quarter note is dotted, so you give it a half beat. So it makes it a syncopated sounding measure.

As far fingering, TITIM, ITIMIT, and, if the song's not really fast, TIM T. If it's really fast, you may have to use ITMT.

That's my take, maybe others will have a different one.

Jun 19, 2021 - 2:36:16 PM

Bill H

USA

1648 posts since 11/7/2010

Thanks Sherry. The tune is a traditional New England dance tune in 6/8 time. This is a tune I am working on in a multi instrument group class setting. We are provided with sheet music and it is our choice to play melody or rhythm. I have been challenging myself to transcribe and tab out these 6/8 tunes in finger style.

My first take on a four note forward roll that it would be impossible, but I find I have made progress, but it is not smooth.

Jun 19, 2021 - 2:53:13 PM

2525 posts since 5/2/2012

I play a tune where the first part of the measure is similar to the 1st measure above. Also part of a picking pattern I use on dobro. Using the KISS principle (and maybe being a bit lazy), I play it TTIM. Timing and dynamics do not seem to be an issue when I do this, but it takes some practice. Since the next two measures in this tune have notes on strings 3-1, then my hand and fingers would already be in place. 2nd and 3rd measures, I'm with Sherry.

Jun 19, 2021 - 3:11:08 PM

2537 posts since 4/5/2006

6/8 is jig time. Unlike waltz timing, jig timing has kind of a gallop to it. Think Portuguese Washer Woman,,,,,the only  6/8 tune I ever got reasonably close to mastering. I have to hear a jig over & over & over before my little pea brain starts to get the hang of it.

Jun 19, 2021 - 3:40:38 PM
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corcoran

Canada

435 posts since 8/3/2004

I play 4-note passages like this as TITM. See my tab of June Apple for an example. Of course, this requires a cross-over of the thumb playing the fourth and then, after index on the third, the second string -- and this takes some practice.

Jun 19, 2021 - 3:55:01 PM

chuckv97

Canada

58214 posts since 10/5/2013

I first saw the 4 note roll in an Alan Munde tab years ago. Never played it until about 3 years ago learning Heartaches. I use what Alan does, as Michael mentioned - TITM. I practiced just the 2 cross-over notes over & over.

Jun 19, 2021 - 4:18:52 PM
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11859 posts since 6/2/2008

As said above: T-I-T-M is what Alan Munde developed a long time ago, for Huckleberry Hornpipe. 

BUT, in a session in the online Midwest Banjo Camp two weekends ago, I believe it was Ned Luberecki who confessed to double-thumbing the first two notes of a 4-note/4-string forward pattern.  I'll have to check my tabs when I get home.

I worked out Huckleberry Hornpipe before the tab appeared in BNL and T-I-T-M never occurred to me for the 4-note forward roll just as M-T-I-T never occurred to me for the 4-note backward roll. So I double-thumbed the first two notes of the forward and dragged my index for the second and third notes of the backward. While I have since learned to do both of these the more advanced way, I find myself on occasion double-thumbing or index-dragging. I don't think I'm going to jail or Hell.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 06/19/2021 16:19:27

Jun 19, 2021 - 7:31:46 PM
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Alex Z

USA

4374 posts since 12/7/2006
Online Now

"The tune is a traditional New England dance tune in 6/8 time. This is a tune I am working on in a multi instrument group class setting. We are provided with sheet music and it is our choice to play melody or rhythm. I have been challenging myself to transcribe and tab out these 6/8 tunes in finger style."

This is good music.  If you're playing 6/8 dances, jigs, etc. note for note, then there are some more tools needed in the tool box:

  -- thumb cross-over on interior strings.  This is the T I T M way of playing the four note "roll" illustrated.  Cross over can be up ( toward the 1st string) or down (toward the 4th string).

  -- same two notes on the same string, played with different fingers.  Many of these tunes have repeated notes. "Irish Washerwoman," for example.

  -- same two notes on the same string, played with the same finger.

  -- two notes in a row on different strings, played with the same finger.

Sometimes these techniques are needed depending on what notes come before and what notes come after -- don't want to mess up other phrases, so use these techniques to free up fingers for previous or following notes.

When I'm working out these tunes note for note, I'm not thinking "roll," but rather the most efficient a smoothest way to get through the entire tune.  A few parts may call for motions a player has never done before -- that's an opportunity to learn and master something new.

Go for it!

Jun 20, 2021 - 3:58:29 AM

Bill H

USA

1648 posts since 11/7/2010

quote:

When I'm working out these tunes note for note, I'm not thinking "roll," but rather the most efficient a smoothest way to get through the entire tune.  A few parts may call for motions a player has never done before -- that's an opportunity to learn and master something new.

 


Thanks Alex. Exactly. Sometimes I think, Why not get a flat pick and an Irish tenor banjo? I was inspired to try to work out these jigs by learning Irish Washer Woman from Tony Trishcka's fiddle tune book. Kesh Jig is another our group has played that challenged me. For Portland Fancy I tabbed it out note for note with the sheet music, and have been editing the tab for a couple of weeks, trying to find the smoothest path through--or in my case, the least awkward path. One of the biggest skill challenges is getting the single string runs to not sound so choppy. What I think of as the crisscross with the index and thumb is one of those tools that seems counter intuitive, but works well when practiced in certain situations.

Jun 20, 2021 - 4:25:34 AM

banjoy

USA

9675 posts since 7/1/2006

I frequently do a 4-note forward roll for backup all the time. Depending on tempo I play it differently. Slower tempos I prefer T-T-I-M but at faster clips I go with T-I-T-M

There is a similar backward 4-note roll, M-I-I-T. So frequently in 3/4 time I will play a 6/8 against it, T-T-I-M-I-I-T-T-I-M-I-I-T etc. which has a very nice flow to it. It's a simple way to arpeggiate chords so you can move around nicely during these types of rolls. Of course this works in 6/8 time because that's what it is. At fast clips I play T-I-T-M-T-I-T-I-M-T etc (because it seems easier at faster speeds.)

You can also get some pretty cool syncopation by playing these rolls against 4/4 time. It works and is pretty bouncy.

But then I never studied how other people do this, just something I stumbled into that worked for me. Your mileage may vary.

Edited by - banjoy on 06/20/2021 04:32:14

Jun 20, 2021 - 7:16:28 AM
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3797 posts since 3/28/2008

Another vote for TITM here. I wouldn't call it a "forward roll", though. I reserve that term for ...TIMTIM...sequences. This is simply an uncommon use of the alternating thumb (a.k.a. square roll, box roll, "Cripple Creek" roll, etc.) pattern.

Jun 20, 2021 - 11:25:49 AM

11859 posts since 6/2/2008

Tony Trischka teaches TITM, 4321, as "Four in a Row" in a lesson at his ArtistWorks school. I've seen that fingering indicated in countless BNL tabs as well as in songbooks (possibly including Bela Fleck and Alison Brown). Often the fingering is provided for only that sequence since it's an atypical occurrence.

Jun 20, 2021 - 12:59:42 PM

Bill H

USA

1648 posts since 11/7/2010

Thanks all for the input. I appreciate having some informed perspectives on this. I have been going back and forth with TITM and ITIM. Both work and I can see it will take some repetition's to smooth out. The index lead seems to flow a bit better, but I can see value in being able to go either way incase I get out of sequence in any of the previous measures.

Jun 20, 2021 - 5:15:14 PM

Ian Stuart

Australia

134 posts since 2/14/2013

Hi Bill for me I would do inside roll double middle TIMM for the first measure. MIMIMI for the second but use open strings till you need the 6th fret second string note . Then TIMT for the notes at the 5th fret . I would not be able to untangle my fingers quick enough after all that work at the 3rd fret and get to the 5th fret in time.
Hope this makes sense.

Jun 21, 2021 - 9:23:15 AM

Alex Z

USA

4374 posts since 12/7/2006
Online Now

"One of the biggest skill challenges is getting the single string runs to not sound so choppy. What I think of as the crisscross with the index and thumb is one of those tools that seems counter intuitive, but works well when practiced in certain situations."

Yes, the challenge is working out a smooth 5-string version.  Anyone can do a "single-string" technique arrangement with staccato notes.  But the enjoyment for me is to play a reverberant, sustaining, toneful arrangement.  That's not always easy to conceive, and we learn as we go.

It took me about 3 months to arrange and smooth out "Maid Behind the Bar.  As a sequence of notes on the tenor banjo, not all that difficult.  But as a sequence of movements on the 5-string, very difficult for me because many of the movements to get the notes while playing open and/or sustaining strings were completely new.  No muscle or mental memory to rely on.    By the end of 3 months, I had mastered more of the 5-string banjo, that I didn't even think of 3 months previously.

You'll get there.  Takes time to figure out and learn new motions. Takes a little longer than using the "rolls" and motions you already know.

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