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May 10, 2021 - 12:52:15 PM
5027 posts since 3/22/2008

In a recent post Michael Westfall stated that "around 1930 Page issued a tuner with a stamped metal gear case" which he'd seen on some Paramount Junior banjos.
The first Paramount Junior I've encountered was in the 1930 Paramount catalog.
Attached are 3 photos of the pegs on 3 different Paramount Juniors.
They look like the same pegs to me.
You can't see if there is an "E" stamped on the housing though.
Are these pegs the ones known as the Paramount E tuners?
If so, when were they first introduced?
1930?


May 10, 2021 - 1:01:25 PM

5027 posts since 3/22/2008

In 1932 the Paramount Junior name was changed to the Paramount X.
Attached is a photo of the pegs on a Paramount X.
They look like the pegs shown above on the 3 Paramount Junior banjos.
You can see an "E" stamped on the Paramount X pegs.
I assume this is what Paramount folks call the Page "E" Pegs.
Is that correct?


May 10, 2021 - 1:03:28 PM
Players Union Member

RioStat

USA

5514 posts since 10/12/2009

I don't know a damn thing about Page tuners or Paramount banjos...but the tuners pictured above, in the first post photos, (when the "close-up" photo of the back of the headstock is greatly enlarged) clearly show an "E" stamped into the housing.

There are the words "Page" and "Patent" stamped in curvature on the housing, and an "E" stamped just  below that, between "Page" and "Patent"

Edited by - RioStat on 05/10/2021 13:04:37

May 10, 2021 - 1:07:05 PM
Players Union Member

RioStat

USA

5514 posts since 10/12/2009

Tuners in the first post photos are same as the ones in the second post photo

May 10, 2021 - 1:24:38 PM

5027 posts since 3/22/2008

Thanks Scott. These must be what Paramount people call the Page "E" tuners but we'll see if anyone here on BHO can confirm.

May 10, 2021 - 1:30:54 PM
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2654 posts since 4/7/2010

Here are a couple pics of Page E tuners I had 6 years ago. I think the earliest banjo I had them on as OEM equipment was a Paramount Junior or X from the 1930's. The most modern banjo I saw them on was a Kyle Creed from the 1970's. I think the earlier tuners had the words cast, or stamped and the later tuners were blank.

Bob Smakula




May 10, 2021 - 4:23:16 PM

1744 posts since 6/2/2010

The Page E tuners I had were very unique where the tuner button met the peg. Not sure if they were newer or older than the other pics posted.




May 10, 2021 - 5:11:55 PM

DSmoke

USA

1014 posts since 11/30/2015

I have a few Lange banjos currently with the Page E tuners. I also believe I have 2 sets of them in the parts bin. I will have to look back at few restorations to see what models I've had them on. I will get that info here as soon as I can.

May 10, 2021 - 5:26:17 PM

273 posts since 2/11/2009

My Super Orpheum 3 has those tuners, and your serial chart from a few years ago puts it at 1928.

May 11, 2021 - 4:38:06 AM

5027 posts since 3/22/2008

OldFrets - Yes I have your Orpheum #17368. I amended the hypothetical date chart to push 17XXX out to 1928 to Mar. 1929 based on a Lange advertisement I found. I posted the amended chart here recently. At that time yours was the highest Super Orpheum serial number we had until DSmoke just gave me Super Orpheum 17391. Maybe I've short changed the 173XX numbers based on this Page E tuner information. Trouble is I don't know when the Page E tuners first appeared. 1929? 1930?

May 11, 2021 - 7:18:44 AM

2164 posts since 1/4/2009

I've got a set on a Lange tenor and some in a parts box. Are these desired tuners for some reason?

May 11, 2021 - 7:51:45 AM
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5027 posts since 3/22/2008

I've never heard that Page E tuners were particularly collectable. I'm trying to pin down when the E tuners were introduced so that this information can be added to Orpheum and Paramount benchmarks for conjuring a serial number date chart. What style/model Lange tenor do you have and what is the serial number? Does it have "Lange Made" stamped anywhere?

May 11, 2021 - 9:23:48 AM

2164 posts since 1/4/2009

ahh. the lange tenor i have is an off make with no serial number so i cant tell you a date, sorry.

May 11, 2021 - 10:43:48 AM

5027 posts since 3/22/2008

Kyle - That's okay. I think I've answered by own query about the Page "E" tuners. What a surprise (I think). If I'm not mistaken the Page E tuners were out by at least Oct. 17, 1925! Attached is the equipment page from Lange's Orpheum catalog which was published about Oct. 17, 1925. The peg depicted in the catalog looks like the Page "E" tuner. We have a Page "E" housing (from Paramount Junior 13563) stamped with a patent number 1710802 and I've attached the patent drawing. The application for this patent was March 19, 1924. Note that in the patent drawing ,the image in the catalog, and the actual Page E from the Paramount Junior have the winding mechanism and the peg button off center. I'm reasonably sure the 1925 catalog picture is the Page "E".

So, people studying Paramount (and not Orpheum) miss the Page E until Lange decided to put them on his new 1930 Paramount Junior. Meanwhile select Orpheum banjos were getting the Page "E" pegs in the 1920's but I don't know which ones. Actually, for dating banjos I never wanted to get into hardware because hardware can be changed and as such not a reliable indicator of build date.

But anyway, for Paramount we know Lange put them on his new 1930 Paramount Junior. For Orpheum we know Lange had been using the Page "E" since the mid-20's and not a good benchmark for dating Lange Orpheum banjos.


May 11, 2021 - 1:34:16 PM

303 posts since 2/21/2012

Clifford Essex used the Page Type E peg on their Paragon Banjos, from c1927/8.
After they stopped using the Waverley Tuners.
Keith

May 11, 2021 - 6:34:33 PM

DSmoke

USA

1014 posts since 11/30/2015

Here are a few pictures that I was able to grab quickly, time is limited this week for me. I have a Supertone Orchestra with gold page E tuners. There are 2 pictures of my current Super Orpheum 2 with a Page E tuner from a Challenger I am restoring, and a Page E tuner with a square metal part where the button meets from my parts bin. Unfortunately, I can't remember where that set of tuners came from. Notice there are some differences with the writing and patent number. I don't believe there is a serial number for the Supertone and Challenger.






May 24, 2021 - 2:39:44 PM

2654 posts since 4/7/2010

beezaboy

Attached are some pics of a Page tuner that I have never seen others. I call it the "Page Mickey Mouse" The cast letters going around the housing say Pat. Page 'Geared' Peg P'nd'g. The housing is die cast as is the ring gear. The star gear and string post are machined from brass.

Bob Smakula








May 24, 2021 - 5:03:52 PM

5027 posts since 3/22/2008

Bob Smakula
Bob - Thanks for the "Mickey Mouse" Page Pegs photos.
Another mystery.
I have a theory.
Your "Mickey Mouse" Page Pegs are a variety of the Page Pegs that Mike Westfall said came just after the first Page Pegs that had a nearly square brass mounting plate beneath the housing. Your "Mickey Mouse" Pages have the screws on the same side which is key when tracing Page Pegs to the Page Figure Eights.
Attached is the article announcing Lange adoption of the Page Pegs for his Paramount banjos. This article was in Music Trade Review Oct. 21, 1922 and shows the mounting plate. Next attached is a photo from a Paramount C with the Page Pegs and mounting plate. Next attached is the Page Pegs with screws on the same side but no mounting plate. I'm surmising that your "Mickey Mouse" Page Pegs are a variety of the screws on the same side but no mounting plate variety. The housing stamps on your "Mickey Mouse" appear to be the the same as the Pegs two screws same side in photo three attached. I am concluding that the screws on the same side with no mounting plate Page Pegs were in play from 1923 to late 1926 and seem to have been around for as long as the Page Figure Eight types were.


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