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The Adam Toledo shooting displays what is wrong with our news coverage

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Apr 16, 2021 - 8:19:04 AM
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10931 posts since 2/22/2007

Unarmed 13 year old Black Male shot down by police, with his hands raised. Still photos and stop action and slow motion videos tell the tale. Cops are wanton killers, your child is not safe on the street, end of story. Repeated over and over. Left out of most reporting and almost all editorials, are a few facts.
The officer was responding to a "shots fired" call. Two men run away when confronted by cops.
One has a gun in his hand running down an alley. He stops next to a fence, tosses the gun and turns to raise his hand in one motion. He is shot as he turns around. Elapsed time between him tossing the gun, turning, and getting shot is about a half second.
The officer is running down a dark alley pursuing a man with a gun IN HIS HAND who ran from him. And he was responding to a shots fired call. He has a fraction of a second to make a firing decision.
Yet we get:
Unarmed Black Child murdered by police! And the mayor says "he never fired at them!". And from a journalist "where is the second amendment crowd to defend his right to bear arms?".

Further perspective. The city is going to go wild over this shooting death of a young black male. In a city that had 769 firearm homicides last year. This very weekend, 25 were shot, three were fatal. Almost all were young Black Males.

I am NOT saying that this is not a tragedy. But part of that tragedy is that a young boy was out at night with a gun up to no good. And part of that tragedy is that his actions put him in a danger. He was with a 21 yr. old who thrust the gun in his hands and told him to run when the cops confronted him. Does he not share any blame? I am NOT blindly supporting all cops, all of the times, far from it.
But thris eporting is inflammatory and outright dangerous. They seem intent on fostering rage and violence against the police. Chicago police have a long sad history of thuggery and illegal violence. There are plenty of real issues to report on here. This is not one of them.

Edited by - banjo bill-e on 04/16/2021 08:20:33

Apr 16, 2021 - 8:27:59 AM
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phb

Germany

2617 posts since 11/8/2010

Perhaps it would help if police officers wouldn't be either charged for murder or completely acquitted by a Grand Jury but be charged for a much lesser crime such as negligent homicide. German penal law allows anything between a fine and up to five years of prison for that type of crime. Given the information on the case you posted, this could easily be at the low end of the scale.

Apr 16, 2021 - 8:42:10 AM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

10931 posts since 2/22/2007

I think expecting anyone to be perfect in split-second life or death situations is an impossible standard. Any officer who waits to clearly see what an armed suspect is going to do has an excellent chance of getting shot themselves.
I am having a hard time finding fault with the officer's actions. But so very easy to criticize from the safety of a news desk.
I have watched those videos several times, at real speed, and what happened in that alley is not what is being portrayed.

Apr 16, 2021 - 8:46:59 AM
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Players Union Member

DC5

USA

18430 posts since 6/30/2015

If the kid had thrown the gun down in plain sight, and not behind the fence - and turned slowly with his hands up, it might have turned out differently.

Apr 16, 2021 - 9:08:26 AM

10048 posts since 8/22/2006

So many questions about this. What is a Thirteen year old doing out at that time of the morning? What’s the parents responsibility in all of this? If there ever was a need for social services help this family qualified. I read the young teen ran away from home before this unfortunate incident and his street name was lil’ homicide,now that’s a nick name that will take you somewhere.

Edited by - 5B-Ranch on 04/16/2021 09:11:56

Apr 16, 2021 - 9:30:21 AM

Owen

Canada

8379 posts since 6/5/2011

Bill-e.... you're giving me pause re. our Canadian news (?) outlets. I see lots of slanted coverage on our networks, but so far this incident doesn't appear to be one of them..... time will tell [to coin a phrase].   

Up here we didn't get:  "Cops are wanton killers, your child is not safe on the street, end of story. Repeated over and over............<snip> Unarmed Black Child murdered by police!"

CTV and CBC both reported most of the facts you mention: 
"The officer was responding to a "shots fired" call. Two men run away when confronted by cops.
One has a gun in his hand running down an alley. He stops next to a fence, tosses the gun and turns to raise his hand in one motion. He is shot as he turns around."    

They didn't mention that the, "Elapsed time between him tossing the gun, turning, and getting shot is about a half second."  .... but they did show the video, and viewers can assess the situation for themselves.  They also broadcast the mayor's clip, and once again, we can assess her comments for ourselves.   

For most of the day CBC radio is on [background].... I don't recall it ^^ being mentioned so far today.... although I expect that will change come supper time and evening TV news (?).
 

Apr 16, 2021 - 9:31:12 AM

banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

10931 posts since 2/22/2007

Also remember where this officer was operating. He was in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the country, averaging close to two firearm homicides per day. Honestly put yourself in his shoes for a moment.
But we have the mayor of the city saying "you did not have to shoot that kid".

Apr 16, 2021 - 9:32:10 AM
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Banjo Lefty

Canada

2192 posts since 6/19/2014

Why were the cops chasing him? He was RUNNING AWAY, hence, no threat. So he had a gun. So what? Everybody in the US has a gun.

Apr 16, 2021 - 9:34:32 AM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

10931 posts since 2/22/2007

Yes Owen, but Canadians are mostly reasonable people. We, on the other hand-----

edit, OOPS, I posted that "reasonable" comment before I read Banjo Lefty's post. I take it back!

Edited by - banjo bill-e on 04/16/2021 09:35:26

Apr 16, 2021 - 9:38:37 AM
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ChunoTheDog

Canada

765 posts since 8/9/2019

quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty

Why were the cops chasing him? He was RUNNING AWAY, hence, no threat. So he had a gun. So what? Everybody in the US has a gun.


And you received a law degree at some point? Almost unbeleivable 

Apr 16, 2021 - 9:40:15 AM

863 posts since 9/6/2019

quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty

Why were the cops chasing him? He was RUNNING AWAY, hence, no threat. So he had a gun. So what? Everybody in the US has a gun.


Do the cops in Canada stop chasing someone suspected of a crime as soon as they turn and run? I somehow doubt it.

Apr 16, 2021 - 9:45:33 AM

2271 posts since 3/29/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty

Why were the cops chasing him? He was RUNNING AWAY, hence, no threat. So he had a gun. So what? Everybody in the US has a gun.



 

Apr 16, 2021 - 10:04:08 AM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

10931 posts since 2/22/2007

A few examples of the press:

msnbc--Joy Reid--"the police did not wait ten seconds before opening up on that child, like it was a drive-by"

CBS news shows a video trimmed at the edges so that the gun in hand does not appear in the video.

Many are showing a photo of an even younger Adam, smiling and holding a baby. Yet it has been reported that he was a member of the Latin Kings gang and known as "Lil Homicide". But the "child holding baby" photo is what is reported. And so forth.

Apr 16, 2021 - 10:07:55 AM
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10048 posts since 8/22/2006

If it bleeds it leads.
Another example of reporting from the view of emotions instead of facts. 

some reason I get this sense of potential jury tampering with this type of reporting if this ever goes to a trial. 

Edited by - 5B-Ranch on 04/16/2021 10:11:43

Apr 16, 2021 - 10:08:55 AM

Owen

Canada

8379 posts since 6/5/2011

quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

Yes Owen, but Canadians are mostly reasonable people. We, on the other hand----- <snip> 


I'm all for straight-forward factual news.... with editorializing kept separate. When I couple this ^^  reply with the topic,  you get me wondering if it's all on the outlets, or if "we on the other hand" should get looked at more closely.

P.S.  Tongue-in-cheek, Canadians are mostly responsible people? .... or most Canadians are responsible people? .... or most Canadians are mostly responsible people?   ..... or???    devil

Apr 16, 2021 - 10:26:57 AM

6637 posts since 9/5/2006

when he turned with his empty hands up is going to be the narrative here,, what happen up till then will be down played. story has it an older man tossed him the gun and told him to run knowing at his age ,,caught with a gun would be a minor offense.

Apr 16, 2021 - 12:04:54 PM
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Banjo Lefty

Canada

2192 posts since 6/19/2014

quote:
Originally posted by ChunoTheDog
quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty

Why were the cops chasing him? He was RUNNING AWAY, hence, no threat. So he had a gun. So what? Everybody in the US has a gun.


And you received a law degree at some point? Almost unbeleivable 


Not only did I get a law degree, I got two of 'em.  I also practiced for over thirty years.  Here's some of what I learned:

1) People are innocent until proven guilty in a Court of Law.  Everybody knows this, but few take it to heart, especially the police.  In that alley, the kid running away from the police was innocent of any crime.  So why would a police officer chase, on foot, an innocent kid, particularly if that kid was holding a gun?

2) Police think their job is to put bad guys in jail.  Many members of the public think so, too.  In fact, the purpose of the entire judicial system, as it has evolved over the past eight hundred years, begining with the Magna Carta of 1215,  is to keep people OUT of jail.  The job of the police is to protect and serve.  In that alley, the person most in need of police protection was the thirteen year old.  The police failed miserably.

3) The motto of our judicial system is this: Better to let ten guilty people go free than punish one innocent person.  Some folks are astounded by this, but that's the way the system works.  We convict only if we are convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant did it.  If there's any doubt at all, the defendant walks.  Or should.  The system doesn't work as well with Black defendants as it does with White ones.  But that's the law.  In that alley, letting the kid simply run away was a viable option.  He hadn't killed anybody, he wasn't threatening anybody, he didn't point his gun at the police or at anybody else.  Just before he was shot, he threw the gun away.

Police let people go all the time.  Speeders will sometimes get away with it because a high speed chase in traffic poses a greater risk to the public than leaving the speeder alone, for example.  Until we realize that not every suspect needs to be tased, or shot, or handcuffed, or subdued, or controlled, these sorts of incidents will continue.

Apr 16, 2021 - 12:21:09 PM

2271 posts since 3/29/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty
quote:
Originally posted by ChunoTheDog
quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty

Why were the cops chasing him? He was RUNNING AWAY, hence, no threat. So he had a gun. So what? Everybody in the US has a gun.


And you received a law degree at some point? Almost unbeleivable 


Not only did I get a law degree, I got two of 'em.  I also practiced for over thirty years.  Here's some of what I learned:

1) People are innocent until proven guilty in a Court of Law.  Everybody knows this, but few take it to heart, especially the police.  In that alley, the kid running away from the police was innocent of any crime.  So why would a police officer chase, on foot, an innocent kid, particularly if that kid was holding a gun?

2) Police think their job is to put bad guys in jail.  Many members of the public think so, too.  In fact, the purpose of the entire judicial system, as it has evolved over the past eight hundred years, begining with the Magna Carta of 1215,  is to keep people OUT of jail.  The job of the police is to protect and serve.  In that alley, the person most in need of police protection was the thirteen year old.  The police failed miserably.

3) The motto of our judicial system is this: Better to let ten guilty people go free than punish one innocent person.  Some folks are astounded by this, but that's the way the system works.  We convict only if we are convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant did it.  If there's any doubt at all, the defendant walks.  Or should.  The system doesn't work as well with Black defendants as it does with White ones.  But that's the law.  In that alley, letting the kid simply run away was a viable option.  He hadn't killed anybody, he wasn't threatening anybody, he didn't point his gun at the police or at anybody else.  Just before he was shot, he threw the gun away.

Police let people go all the time.  Speeders will sometimes get away with it because a high speed chase in traffic poses a greater risk to the public than leaving the speeder alone, for example.  Until we realize that not every suspect needs to be tased, or shot, or handcuffed, or subdued, or controlled, these sorts of incidents will continue.


When you put it like that, it makes a lot more sense.

Apr 16, 2021 - 12:23:39 PM
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1792 posts since 4/10/2005

The police out on the streets protecting the innocent from violent predators and sociopaths are not a court of law and do not have the luxury of going into jury deliberations about somebody's guilt or innocence.  They have split seconds to decide whether deadly force is called for, to protect others or themselves.

The Toledo kid had a semi-automatic weapon and was shooting it at a car or cars. The cop had a fraction of a hair of a second to decide what to do when the kid turned with his arms up. I've watched the video repeatedly---I don't see him throw something down, and I don't see something go out of his hand. How is the cop going to see it in a split second if I don't see it on the film?

Additionally, there appears to be something shiny in Toledo's left hand up in the air--to our right watching the video. It's actually a streetlight or some other kind of light just behind him . . . but with a split second to make the call, would you know that? It's a tragedy, but it's not murder.   A far less charitable view of this kid would be, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." 

Same goes for the woman cop who shot Daunte Wright when she meant to tase. Before Wright broke away and got into his vehicle, the cops had run his ID through the system and turned up an open charge for violent crime involving a firearm. Their awareness of that made it a heightened situation of extreme tension calling for split-second response when he broke away and entered the car. The kind of heightened and extreme tension that makes mistakes more likely. Tragedy, yes. Murder, no.

Those fomenting a narrative that plays these situations as murder (often throwing race into that mix) are dishonest and reprehensible.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/16/2021 12:27:37

Apr 16, 2021 - 12:25:12 PM
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banjo bill-e

Tuvalu

10931 posts since 2/22/2007

Banjo Lefty, if there were shots fired outside of your house would you call the police? Discharging a firearm IS a crime. It is the job of the police to chase a public danger. Someone shooting a gun in a city street late at night is a public danger. The chase is an obligation.

A street confrontation is not a court of law, and different rules apply. He was not executed! He was shot while fleeing the cops while holding a gun.

You would not be so cavalier about "letting guilty people go" if one of those guilty had harmed you or your family.

I do think that you would also have a different take on the cop's actions if you had ever had to chase an armed suspect down an alley at night in one of our most dangerous cities.

Your "viable option" has the same effect as "let's don't have police anymore" because anyone could run away. Bank robber or mass shooter, they have not yet been convicted in a court of law so they are innocent in your eyes and so every single one would choose the "viable option" and run away while the police stood by and watched. Nonsense.

Apr 16, 2021 - 12:29:43 PM

Owen

Canada

8379 posts since 6/5/2011

quote:
Originally posted by ceemonster.


<snip> Those fomenting a narrative that plays these situations as murder (often throwing race into that mix) are dishonest and reprehensible.


My take is that, generally speaking, the extremes from both ends are close to being equally dishonest and reprehensible.    wink

Edited by - Owen on 04/16/2021 12:31:23

Apr 16, 2021 - 12:42:42 PM

1792 posts since 4/10/2005

Actually, some mainstream U.S. media commentary has been surprisingly reasonable about the Toledo shooting. Not sure which network, but on one of these news panels the other night several commentators seemed to view this as not criminally actionable.

Apr 16, 2021 - 12:59:22 PM

863 posts since 9/6/2019

quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty
quote:
Originally posted by ChunoTheDog
quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty

Why were the cops chasing him? He was RUNNING AWAY, hence, no threat. So he had a gun. So what? Everybody in the US has a gun.


And you received a law degree at some point? Almost unbeleivable 


Not only did I get a law degree, I got two of 'em.  I also practiced for over thirty years.  Here's some of what I learned:

1) People are innocent until proven guilty in a Court of Law.  Everybody knows this, but few take it to heart, especially the police.  In that alley, the kid running away from the police was innocent of any crime.  So why would a police officer chase, on foot, an innocent kid, particularly if that kid was holding a gun?

2) Police think their job is to put bad guys in jail.  Many members of the public think so, too.  In fact, the purpose of the entire judicial system, as it has evolved over the past eight hundred years, begining with the Magna Carta of 1215,  is to keep people OUT of jail.  The job of the police is to protect and serve.  In that alley, the person most in need of police protection was the thirteen year old.  The police failed miserably.

3) The motto of our judicial system is this: Better to let ten guilty people go free than punish one innocent person.  Some folks are astounded by this, but that's the way the system works.  We convict only if we are convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant did it.  If there's any doubt at all, the defendant walks.  Or should.  The system doesn't work as well with Black defendants as it does with White ones.  But that's the law.  In that alley, letting the kid simply run away was a viable option.  He hadn't killed anybody, he wasn't threatening anybody, he didn't point his gun at the police or at anybody else.  Just before he was shot, he threw the gun away.

Police let people go all the time.  Speeders will sometimes get away with it because a high speed chase in traffic poses a greater risk to the public than leaving the speeder alone, for example.  Until we realize that not every suspect needs to be tased, or shot, or handcuffed, or subdued, or controlled, these sorts of incidents will continue.


Given your background as a lawyer, about how much of a payday would you get from the city by representing the family of someone shot by this innocent child, using the gun that he possessed illegally, when they got in his way when he was running away from the police who stopped chasing him because he was no longer a threat?

Edited by - Banjonewguy on 04/16/2021 13:03:01

Apr 16, 2021 - 1:17:38 PM
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figmo59

USA

33146 posts since 3/5/2008

To protect and serve...

Seems to me..
The Cops were protecting the public..

That would be the folks this guy may have been shooting at...

Apr 16, 2021 - 1:28:43 PM
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10048 posts since 8/22/2006

1) People are innocent until proven guilty in a Court of Law. Everybody knows this, but few take it to heart, especially the police. In that alley, the kid running away from the police was innocent of any crime. So why would a police officer chase, on foot, an innocent kid, particularly if that kid was holding a gun?

I’m not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but I have stayed at a holiday in express and correct me if I’m wrong but I believe there is a age requirement for hand guns?

And I don't even have a law degree and found this...

  • Handguns: Under federal law, unlicensed persons may not sell, deliver or otherwise transfer a handgun or handgun ammunition to any person the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 18, except under certain exceptions.**

  • I guess the 21 year old,getting caught with a hand gun at a crime scene qualified as a "certain exception"

Edited by - 5B-Ranch on 04/16/2021 13:34:06

Apr 16, 2021 - 1:38:22 PM
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figmo59

USA

33146 posts since 3/5/2008

What I wanna know is...

Why is the Cop getting blamed...?
I..mean...

We all know it was the guns fault...

Both the the cops gun..n..the suspected...shooters tossed gun..

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