Banjo Hangout Logo
Banjo Hangout Logo

Premier Sponsors

483
Banjo Lovers Online


Page: 1  2   3   Next Page   Last Page (3) 

Mar 8, 2021 - 5:31:31 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

13789 posts since 8/30/2006

Scallops up or down

Mar 8, 2021 - 5:39:21 PM

Fathand

Canada

11713 posts since 2/7/2008

Scallops up for Whyte Laydie
Scallops down for Electric

Mar 8, 2021 - 5:54:07 PM

3036 posts since 2/18/2009
Online Now

I've always done it up, I just thought that was how it was supposed to be. I didn't know the Electric went the other way.

Mar 8, 2021 - 5:59 PM

Fathand

Canada

11713 posts since 2/7/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Hoyt

I've always done it up, I just thought that was how it was supposed to be. I didn't know the Electric went the other way.


I just looked it up, apparently some electrics went up. Maybe it's an early/late thing.

Mar 8, 2021 - 7:33:37 PM

Bill Rogers (Moderator)

USA

24584 posts since 6/25/2005

Electrics had scallops either wAY.

Mar 8, 2021 - 7:34:55 PM
likes this

3036 posts since 2/18/2009
Online Now

I wonder how it would be to have scallops on both sides, and if so if they should be lined up so as to make a wave pattern or a thick and thin pattern?

Mar 8, 2021 - 7:39:49 PM

5592 posts since 12/20/2005

Does up mean the center of each scallop is positioned as a high point. Ie. It looks like an arch

Mar 9, 2021 - 1:12:43 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

13789 posts since 8/30/2006

the reason I'm asking is I installed this tone ring with scallops up and the joint of the roundstock on top of one of the flats between the scallops.
the banjo has returned to me with the tone ring upside down.

I find this is limiting what the banjo can do and what notes are produced. Limited. By singing into the rim, certain notes will sustain, others don't.

Mar 9, 2021 - 2:21:03 AM

Bill H

USA

1563 posts since 11/7/2010

Scallops are up in my Electric-1898 #0

Mar 9, 2021 - 4:22:52 AM
Players Union Member

Eric A

USA

1113 posts since 10/15/2019

Pictures would sure help. What defines up or down on a scallop, or if a scallop even has a defined direction at all seem a bit up in the air. This thread is ripe for confusion.
(at least for me!)

Even "points up or down" would be more helpful.

Edit:  upon more detailed reading, Helix' 2nd post seems to describe "scallops up" as the same as I would call "points up"  or Helix' "flats" since they aren't really very pointy.  So I guess I have it now.

Scallops or points or flats UP is the normal thing, yes?  But from old threads I have heard of some Electrics being DOWN.

Edited by - Eric A on 03/09/2021 04:35:06

Mar 9, 2021 - 4:39:57 AM

Brett

USA

2446 posts since 11/29/2005

Had same question couple months ago when I installed rickard whyte laydie ring assy. I searched pix and put it scallops up, but I don’t see how it could make any difference? It’s bearing the weight of the outer sleeve either way, but contact area would be less for bearing points I guess?

Mar 9, 2021 - 4:59:29 AM

3382 posts since 4/29/2012

My Electric style (WL ring - but bolts through not bracket band) Dave Stacey has scallops up - i.e the ring sits on top of the points. Sounds fine to me. I'm not going to turn it round to see if it makes a difference.

Mar 9, 2021 - 5:08:39 AM

13472 posts since 6/29/2005

There were electrics that went both ways, and I think some players would switch them.

It makes sense to me to have the little points just touching the rim, which isolates the tone ring, but the vast majority of WLs have the points supporting the 1/4" hoop.

I have made pots similar to those old Fairbanks ones both ways, and don't notice a world of difference.

 

Mar 9, 2021 - 6:20:33 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

13789 posts since 8/30/2006

I didn’t think it would make any difference either
Subjective: I sing a D note into the back of the banjo above middle C
Then the D octave and F# , A and the the low G not on the banjo made by the 3rd and 4th strings with sympathy
Doing this shows me what the vibrating no moving parts will give back and how long with what quality
And which TONE RING
I learned this easier because I play and sing

With this banjo the D octave gets clipped
The note dies from invisible dampening like brakes.  Other notes have less sustain 
That means it would do it during performance
Can you lean on that for emphasis or dynamics?
Playing helped me build me some cool stuff
I sing notes into every banjo I build, own, repair or upgrade

Installed upside down , the round rod lays there flat and sounds different to me
I’m hearing both methods

Edited by - Helix on 03/09/2021 06:32:54

Mar 9, 2021 - 6:44:07 AM

AldenS

Canada

113 posts since 10/23/2017

The diagram from the Dec 1890 patent: 

See Fig3 is the rim of what was already marketed as the "Electric" model. I believe Fig 2 would come to be marketed as the "Curtis Electric".

I own an early 1891 electric. The points are up and since the scalloped ring is inside a full spun rim it would have been nearly impossible to flip.

Most electrics I've seen documented have the points up, though a few were reversed. I'm honestly not sure where the notion that the Electric is the name for an upside-down WL came from. 

I would also note that the names we use for tone rings are often just the name of the model most associated with them. The Whyte Laydie was a new model, designed by David L Day at ACF that incorporated several innovations not previously seen on Fairbanks banjos, including for example the bracket band. The WL banjo didn't have a spun rim but maintained a short spun sleeve that covered the tone ring, which to me is what I usually think of as one of the defining features (basically the top third of the rim of an electric model). Of course confusing things more, Vega later made an "Electric" model which was a stripped down version of the Whyte Laydie without the bracket band...

Mar 9, 2021 - 7:21:18 AM

AldenS

Canada

113 posts since 10/23/2017

Correction, swap "Fig 2" and "Fig 3" in the first paragraph.

Mar 9, 2021 - 11:36:20 AM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

13789 posts since 8/30/2006

Fantastic, thanks, so much.

Mar 9, 2021 - 1:52:12 PM
Players Union Member

Eric A

USA

1113 posts since 10/15/2019

I know nothing about anything. I'll stipulate that. But I think the way in the diagram, points up, make total sense to me. I think you have good contact with the rim to soak up all the vibrations, and then bring them all to point, to concentrate them so to speak, and deliver them to the hoop with extra zing and punch. Which to my ear is exactly what Whyte Laydies do, wonderfully.

To take that scalloped piece out and turn it upside down just seems like it would be the exact opposite. Like, blahhhhville.

Mar 9, 2021 - 2:08:20 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

13789 posts since 8/30/2006

Yes that’s what I’m finding
But it seems some  don’t hear any difference at all

Edited by - Helix on 03/09/2021 14:09:01

Mar 9, 2021 - 2:18:30 PM
Players Union Member

Eric A

USA

1113 posts since 10/15/2019

I'll go one further, for those who assume their Electric came from the factory with the thing upside down. We are talking 100 to 130 year old banjos. Are you telling me that no one in the long history of that banjo, during a head change, said "hmmm, I wonder what it would sound like if I turn this thing around", or maybe they put it back upside down by mistake,  because the dog kicked it over and they weren't sure, and then because of new head or new strings, or changed head tension, or tailpiece all different now, or something, darned if maybe it DID sound better. And they left it that way. But it might have sounded better in spite of screwing up the tone ring. Everybody ever after might have left it upside down too, not knowing somebody messed it up along the way. 

How do you know? 

It might be time to change it back.

Edited by - Eric A on 03/09/2021 14:27:06

Mar 9, 2021 - 2:35:36 PM

AldenS

Canada

113 posts since 10/23/2017

quote:
Originally posted by Eric A

I'll go one further, for those who assume their Electric came from the factory with the thing upside down. We are talking 100 to 130 year old banjos. Are you telling me that no one in the long history of that banjo, during a head change, said "hmmm, I wonder what it would sound like if I turn this thing around", or maybe they put it back upside down by mistake,  because the dog kicked it over and they weren't sure, and then because of new head or new strings, or changed head tension, or tailpiece all different now, or something, darned if maybe it DID sound better. And they left it that way. But it might have sounded better in spite of screwing up the tone ring. Everybody ever after might have left it upside down too, not knowing somebody messed it up along the way. 

How do you know? 

It might be time to change it back.


While I'm inclined to agree with this sentiment in most cases, I would note that the A. C. Fairbanks "Electric" was a spun rim banjo, so there is a metal sleeve wrapped around both the round rod that sits on top of the scalloped ring as well as around a metal ring at the bottom of the rim. All the rings sit on ledges/rebates/rabbets on the outside of the wooden rim, so that they are stuck between the wood of the rim and the outer metal cladding. As a result, I believe it would be nigh on impossible to flip the scalloped ring on an original "Electric" after manufacture without cutting the rim apart. 

While the examples of "points down" tone rings seem to be the experimental exceptions as far as I can tell, I have little doubt that those banjos were indeed made that way.

This is quite different than on a Whyte Laydie or later Vega "Electric" where the whole assembly just sits on top of/around the top of the rim so that it can be lifted off and the parts flipped around.

As an aside I also find this independently interesting as I've been thinking about it over the course of the day, because we seem to usually think of a WL/Electric tone ring as having three parts, the scalloped ring, the round hoop, and the sleeve, but the latter two were both already components of standard spun-rim banjos in 1890, so that the only part that distinguishes an ACF "Eletric" from any other spun rim banjo is the scalloped hoop, and indeed that was the innovation that was patented, not the whole "tone ring" as we conceive of it today.

Edited by - AldenS on 03/09/2021 14:39:52

Mar 9, 2021 - 2:43:18 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

13789 posts since 8/30/2006

Right they were all looking for something

Mar 9, 2021 - 2:49:31 PM
Players Union Member

Eric A

USA

1113 posts since 10/15/2019

quote:
Originally posted by AldenS

As an aside I also find this independently interesting as I've been thinking about it over the course of the day, because we seem to usually think of a WL/Electric tone ring as having three parts, the scalloped ring, the round hoop, and the sleeve, but the latter two were both already components of standard spun-rim banjos in 1890, so that the only part that distinguishes an ACF "Eletric" from any other spun rim banjo is the scalloped hoop, and indeed that was the innovation that was patented, not the whole "tone ring" as we conceive of it today.


Right.  Without the scalloped piece, it's a Little Wonder, isn't it?  That would also be the Senator and Regent back then, and Senator now.  And also the Wonder and Folk Wonder in the 60's.  This is just off the top of my head, not checking anything.

Edited by - Eric A on 03/09/2021 14:53:05

Mar 9, 2021 - 2:53:12 PM
likes this

AldenS

Canada

113 posts since 10/23/2017

quote:
Originally posted by Eric A
quote:
Originally posted by AldenS

As an aside I also find this independently interesting as I've been thinking about it over the course of the day, because we seem to usually think of a WL/Electric tone ring as having three parts, the scalloped ring, the round hoop, and the sleeve, but the latter two were both already components of standard spun-rim banjos in 1890, so that the only part that distinguishes an ACF "Eletric" from any other spun rim banjo is the scalloped hoop, and indeed that was the innovation that was patented, not the whole "tone ring" as we conceive of it today.


Right.  Without the scalloped piece, it's a Little Wonder, isn't it?


Pretty much, yes, though to the best of my knowledge the Little Wonder/Regent tone ring came about after the Whyte Laydie and was designed by Vega as an intermediate model, which as it happens, whether intentionally or by coincidence, basically gets us back to putting the top third of a spun rim banjo on top of a plain wood-rimmed banjo.

Mar 9, 2021 - 5:03:16 PM

6081 posts since 9/21/2007

quote:
Originally posted by AldenS
quote:
Originally posted by Eric A
quote:
Originally posted by AldenS

As an aside I also find this independently interesting as I've been thinking about it over the course of the day, because we seem to usually think of a WL/Electric tone ring as having three parts, the scalloped ring, the round hoop, and the sleeve, but the latter two were both already components of standard spun-rim banjos in 1890, so that the only part that distinguishes an ACF "Eletric" from any other spun rim banjo is the scalloped hoop, and indeed that was the innovation that was patented, not the whole "tone ring" as we conceive of it today.


Right.  Without the scalloped piece, it's a Little Wonder, isn't it?


Pretty much, yes, though to the best of my knowledge the Little Wonder/Regent tone ring came about after the Whyte Laydie and was designed by Vega as an intermediate model, which as it happens, whether intentionally or by coincidence, basically gets us back to putting the top third of a spun rim banjo on top of a plain wood-rimmed banjo.


The clad rim with wires on top and bottom was developed in Troy, NY in the year 1855 (as best as we know).

The "Regent" was just a clad rim.  This was not a new idea to Fairbanks/ Vega.  At a certain point, as it is with new generations, laminated wood rims came into fashion.  The later Regents was a compromise, the head bearing system used in clad rims was used while still catering to the want of a wooden rim.  At that point the Regent became a half clad rim.  The "Little Wonder" is the tenor version.

In advertising the scalloped ring was called an "electric truss" which supported a "wire".   That was it-- "electric truss".

At some point the term "tone ring" came into general use.  If one were so inclined they could find when that was by reviewing issues of the Cadenza looking for that term.  I'm guessing this was post 1910, but I could be wrong.

Mar 9, 2021 - 5:21:09 PM

AldenS

Canada

113 posts since 10/23/2017

The "Regent" was just a clad rim.  This was not a new idea to Fairbanks/ Vega.  

I only mentioned the "Regent" to point out that the tone ring we call the "Little Wonder" wasn't just used on the "Little Wonder" model, but also on what Vega was then calling the "Regent" model at the time (1910s-1930s), though that model name was used on banjos of different construction by ACF beforehand. I did not intend to suggest in any way that spun rim banjos were an invention of ACF. I apologize if I was ambiguous in that regard.

Edited by - AldenS on 03/09/2021 17:22:43

Page: 1  2   3   Next Page   Last Page (3) 

Hangout Network Help

View All Topics  |  View Categories

0.2197266