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Jan 18, 2021 - 2:47:27 PM
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10650 posts since 2/22/2007
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“If we are not careful, our colleges will produce … close-minded, unscientific, illogical propagandists” —Martin Luther King, Jr.

Full text here  "The purpose of education"

Worth a read.  For those who will not, another choice excerpt:---"To think incisively and to think for one’s self is very difficult. We are prone to let our mental life become invaded by legions of half truths, prejudices, and propaganda. At this point, I often wonder whether or not education is fulfilling its purpose. A great majority of the so-called educated people do not think logically and scientifically. Even the press, the classroom, the platform, and the pulpit in many instances do not give us objective and unbiased truths. ------"

And that was over 70 years ago!

Jan 18, 2021 - 3:48:21 PM
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rinemb

USA

13038 posts since 5/24/2005

Those are quotes we don't often see from MLK. Thx, brad

Jan 18, 2021 - 3:48:55 PM

Owen

Canada

7770 posts since 6/5/2011
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quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

“If we are not careful, our colleges will produce … close-minded, unscientific, illogical propagandists” —Martin Luther King, Jr.   <snip> 

I surmise that if we are not careful, colleges would be pretty much the same as non-colleges (?) in producing close-minded, unscientific, illogical propagandists.   

i.e. lost opportunity?  ....akin to one of the many things attributed to Mark Twain: "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." 

Jan 18, 2021 - 4:04:28 PM
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11494 posts since 1/15/2005

quote:
Originally posted by Owen
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

“If we are not careful, our colleges will produce … close-minded, unscientific, illogical propagandists” —Martin Luther King, Jr.    

I surmise that if we are not careful, colleges would be pretty much the same as non-colleges (?) in producing close-minded, unscientific, illogical propagandists.   

i.e. lost opportunity?  ....akin to one of the many things attributed to Mark Twain: "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." 


Owen, what you surmise is indeed correct, except the college produced ones think they are much smarter than the non-college ones.

Jan 18, 2021 - 4:10:46 PM
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kww

USA

938 posts since 6/21/2008

I have a some favourites myself:

"The Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." "

and

"We all to often have socialism for the rich and rugged free enterprise capitalism for the poor."

and

"Whenever the issue of compensatory treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree; but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic."

Jan 18, 2021 - 4:11:51 PM
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DRH

USA

591 posts since 5/29/2018

About 15 years ago I stumbled onto one of his many biographies. I ended up binge-reading everything I could find on him for the next two years. MLK was a fascinating - I would say great - figure in world history. He certainly earned my respect.

Jan 18, 2021 - 4:21:15 PM
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Owen

Canada

7770 posts since 6/5/2011
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quote:
Originally posted by BanjoLink.

<snip> Owen, what you surmise is indeed correct, except the college produced ones think they are much smarter than the non-college ones.


I dunno, John.... maybe you're using too broad a brush?   I know of a few college grads who say that one of the most important things they learned in college was how much they didn't know. 

Jan 18, 2021 - 7:56:12 PM

11494 posts since 1/15/2005

quote:
Originally posted by Owen
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoLink.

Owen, what you surmise is indeed correct, except the college produced ones think they are much smarter than the non-college ones.


I dunno, John.... maybe you're using too broad a brush?   I know of a few college grads who say that one of the most important things they learned in college was how much they didn't know. 


Owen ...... we all use too broad a brush ..... even those who claim they don't.  But then again, I may be using too broad a brush!

Jan 19, 2021 - 3:56:28 AM
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Paul R

Canada

13886 posts since 1/28/2010

Well, we've had the "value of a college education" discussion/debate here, and some seem to have evaluated said education according to its ability to get one a decent job. It seems as though MLK thought differently.

"We must remember that intelligence is not enough. Intelligence plus character—that is the goal of true education. The complete education gives one not only power of concentration, but worthy objectives upon which to concentrate."

Dad dropped out at age thirteen to help support the family, yet succeeded. He was an avid reader and a firm believer in a liberal arts education, because it opened the mind to a variety of situations. I've always been wary of the transformation of universities into tech training schools.

Edited by - Paul R on 01/19/2021 03:56:53

Jan 19, 2021 - 4:04:45 AM
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3880 posts since 12/6/2009

without wisdom, intelligence is moot.

Jan 19, 2021 - 5:29:30 AM
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phb

Germany

2430 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by Paul R

Dad dropped out at age thirteen to help support the family, yet succeeded. He was an avid reader and a firm believer in a liberal arts education, because it opened the mind to a variety of situations. I've always been wary of the transformation of universities into tech training schools.


I studied electric engineering and had to have some totally non-technical subjects in my curriculum because there was this theory that people that only study technology will become something like mindless robots that are going to erect the 4th Reich. Funny enough every single good engineer I have met in my life also had interests outside technology. On the other hand I often wish that everybody studying liberal arts subjects should be forced to study some technical or mathematical subjects to open their minds just like we engineers were force-fed unrelated subjects.

Jan 19, 2021 - 6:05:35 AM
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DC5

USA

16831 posts since 6/30/2015
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quote:
Originally posted by Owen
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoLink.

Owen, what you surmise is indeed correct, except the college produced ones think they are much smarter than the non-college ones.


I dunno, John.... maybe you're using too broad a brush?   I know of a few college grads who say that one of the most important things they learned in college was how much they didn't know. 


Are any of them recent grads?  I only ask, because this was very true 50+ years ago, and most older people I know who graduated college feel that way, but younger graduates have a sense of superiority about them.  I realize this is with a broad brush, but it is, at least to me, noticible. 

Jan 19, 2021 - 6:14:51 AM
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DC5

USA

16831 posts since 6/30/2015
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quote:
Originally posted by phb
quote:
Originally posted by Paul R

Dad dropped out at age thirteen to help support the family, yet succeeded. He was an avid reader and a firm believer in a liberal arts education, because it opened the mind to a variety of situations. I've always been wary of the transformation of universities into tech training schools.


I studied electric engineering and had to have some totally non-technical subjects in my curriculum because there was this theory that people that only study technology will become something like mindless robots that are going to erect the 4th Reich. Funny enough every single good engineer I have met in my life also had interests outside technology. On the other hand I often wish that everybody studying liberal arts subjects should be forced to study some technical or mathematical subjects to open their minds just like we engineers were force-fed unrelated subjects.

 


Thus, you propose a well rounded education.  I'm all for that.  When I was young I was pegged a low level student of limited intelligence.  Back then we had a tracking system and I was in track 3, the lowest track.  In Junior High School I had 5 days of "Manual Arts" a week.  In the three years I had woodworking, metal working, printing, mechanical drawing, and a wonderful class called home mechanics where we learned how to change fuses, replace washers in leaking faucets etc.  Level 2 students got 3 days a week of this training, and level 1, got only 2 days a week.  It was assumed that level 3 students would not go to college, 2 would probably go, and 1 would definitely go.  Level 3 students also got a year of typing class.  I feel that my education better prepared me for life, and college.  My first 2 years of college was at a community college studying liberal arts.  Of the 4 colleges I attended, and others where I took individual courses, this, often joked about, community college was the one where I got the best education. 

Jan 19, 2021 - 6:46:15 AM

phb

Germany

2430 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by DC5

Thus, you propose a well rounded education.

Yes, no evading supposedly unnecessary subjects for anyone. Neither math nor languages, just different emphases.

 

In Junior High School I had 5 days of "Manual Arts" a week.  In the three years I had woodworking, metal working, printing, mechanical drawing, and a wonderful class called home mechanics where we learned how to change fuses, replace washers in leaking faucets etc. 

I envy you!

 

Level 2 students got 3 days a week of this training, and level 1, got only 2 days a week.  It was assumed that level 3 students would not go to college, 2 would probably go, and 1 would definitely go.  Level 3 students also got a year of typing class.  I feel that my education better prepared me for life, and college.  My first 2 years of college was at a community college studying liberal arts.  Of the 4 colleges I attended, and others where I took individual courses, this, often joked about, community college was the one where I got the best education. 


A colleague of mine when I worked as a microchip developer had finished school after 9 or 10 years (basically a dropout but in his generation and in rural places this was common), then trained for TV-repairsman, something that was highly sought in the 70s. Some universities allowed students that didn't complete school up to 13th grade and the final exam called "Abitur" if they had a formal training in a technical profession. My colleague, bored with his job, went to uni, graduated and did postgraduate research to eventually earn a PhD in electrical engineering. When I was working with him, he did some high-frequency research stuff that bordered on black magic. I have the utmost respect for this route as it is far more difficult than just staying sat in school until they don't want to teach you anything any longer.

In my opinion up to tenth grade there should be much more mechanical and other project work than at least we here have. This already teaches a lot of things that can appear dull when taught in the classroom. 

Jan 19, 2021 - 8:10:14 AM

Paul R

Canada

13886 posts since 1/28/2010

In elementary school we were, for some reason, not given access to a shop. A teacher came in and we did drawings of woodworking projects - fine as far as it went, perhaps, but I would be so much more well-rounded had I had access to a shop and tools.

University education was at a Jesuit run college and, no matter what your major, everyone had to take theology in first, second, and third year, and philosophy in second, third, and fourth year. At my summer job, I asked someone what courses she took at her institution, and she started with, "Two psychs and a sose (sociology) ..." I thought, "Geez, you're specializing in freshman year?!" I had one course in my major, history. in first year. I switched in third year.

A fellow Mariposa Folk Festival volunteer ended up teaching computer science at Queen's U here. It was refreshing to hear that he taught a course on computer ethics. Our daughter is a Queen's engineering grad, but she did take a First Nations studies course.

"Well rounded" was a common term back in the day.

Jan 19, 2021 - 5:03:41 PM
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kww

USA

938 posts since 6/21/2008

quote:
Originally posted by phb
I often wish that everybody studying liberal arts subjects should be forced to study some technical or mathematical subjects to open their minds just like we engineers were force-fed unrelated subjects.

 


Absolutely. There are very few people that would not benefit from first-year engineering classes.

Jan 19, 2021 - 6:55:33 PM

Owen

Canada

7770 posts since 6/5/2011
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quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by Owen
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoLink.

Owen, what you surmise is indeed correct, except the college produced ones think they are much smarter than the non-college ones.


I dunno, John.... maybe you're using too broad a brush?   I know of a few college grads who say that one of the most important things they learned in college was how much they didn't know. 


Are any of them recent grads?  I only ask, because this was very true 50+ years ago, and most older people I know who graduated college feel that way, but younger graduates have a sense of superiority about them.  I realize this is with a broad brush, but it is, at least to me, noticible. 


I haven't been ignoring your question Dave, just giving first crack to those who might be more on-topic than me.  The ones I've heard say that ^^ are guys my age ... and ain't no way that that's "recent"!!!  You very likely have more contact with recent grads than I do, so you could be right,  but regarding those I do encounter, I've not noticed any air of superiority. 

I see a lot of what I call I'm-right-and-you're-an-idiot comments on social media sites [including some on BHO].... I wonder if those are skewed toward college grads / non-grads / old(er) folks / young bucks / etc. / ????. 

Am (are) I (we) flirting with "you can't prove a negative"? 

Jan 19, 2021 - 8:34:31 PM
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chuckv97

Canada

55539 posts since 10/5/2013
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I’ve been accused of being a know-it-all, but I told my accuser that I’ve known that for years.....

Jan 22, 2021 - 3:44:12 AM

3880 posts since 12/6/2009

In my early years at school we had tests that were suppose to point students in the direction the test results pointed to. A lot of us were told we had mechanical skills and should pursue those areas for success and satisfaction. Parents were starting to go nuts with a lot of those results as their goals for their kiddies were Doctors and lawyers and such and anything below that was low life. That’s when the stuff started hitting the fan for kids. The parents that could afford the colleges were pushing their kids into them. I knew a family that donated 25.000.00 per year donation to Ohio state just to make sure “johnny” got in. well Johnny was a dumb bell as far as tech school work so he was failing too much pressure….didnt take him long to get mixed up with drinking, partying, and then drugs…eventually johnny was found after missing for a week dead of exposure in a field not far from where he lived (drug over-dos)…..I grew up with Johnny (not real name. Johnny was a really good handy fix it person with really good carpenter skills….he could have dropped out of kindergarten and made a good living in construction……..sad what parents do to their kids.

Jan 22, 2021 - 4:20:59 AM
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579 posts since 9/6/2019

quote:
Originally posted by Owen
quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by Owen
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoLink.

Owen, what you surmise is indeed correct, except the college produced ones think they are much smarter than the non-college ones.


I dunno, John.... maybe you're using too broad a brush?   I know of a few college grads who say that one of the most important things they learned in college was how much they didn't know. 


Are any of them recent grads?  I only ask, because this was very true 50+ years ago, and most older people I know who graduated college feel that way, but younger graduates have a sense of superiority about them.  I realize this is with a broad brush, but it is, at least to me, noticible. 


I haven't been ignoring your question Dave, just giving first crack to those who might be more on-topic than me.  The ones I've heard say that ^^ are guys my age ... and ain't no way that that's "recent"!!!  You very likely have more contact with recent grads than I do, so you could be right,  but regarding those I do encounter, I've not noticed any air of superiority. 

I see a lot of what I call I'm-right-and-you're-an-idiot comments on social media sites [including some on BHO].... I wonder if those are skewed toward college grads / non-grads / old(er) folks / young bucks / etc. / ????. 

Am (are) I (we) flirting with "you can't prove a negative"? 


Owen, I can answer this to a point and maybe narrow the brush a little. I work with, and supervise, 30 degreed engineers, physicists, and mathematicians yet I don't have a degree. What I do have is 30 years of practical technical experience in my field and know more about our particular area of work than the majority of MS degree hires we bring in. I will say that SOME of the young guys have a huge chip on their shoulder and can't stand the fact that a knuckle dragger like me is their supervisor. Most of the older guys who have been engineers for a while don't have the same attitude. I work with the entire range from brand new college grads all the way to guys almost my age (I'm one of the oldest in the office), and I have one old guy with an attitude (he's the one guy that is older than me) and a few young guys with attitudes. I understand that my 30 people is a very small sample, but using that group it seems that the younger guys are more likely to have an attitude, especially when you prove them wrong. Then again, many of us probably had the same attitude when we were younger and didn't realize it.

In a previous life, not too long ago, I worked with many young college grads that I couldn't supervise because they had bars and I had stripes, but most of the guys with STEM degrees didn't have anything to prove and didn't have an attitude, but the non-STEM degree folks were usually the ones that had an attitude about their education compared to everyone else. Again, anecdotal at best, but actual observations.

In every population, educated or not, there are going to be those who think they are the smartest person in the room and internet forums and social media sites seem to be the honey to their pooh. Those types of people are drawn to social media and the like because they now have a platform that they wouldn't otherwise have thanks to the security of a computer monitor between them and the rest of the world. Before computers, if you talked to a person the way many of these people do you stood a good chance of getting a broken nose. Someone can't punch you through a screen so they feel relatively safe being complete jerks.

Jan 24, 2021 - 3:08:54 AM

3880 posts since 12/6/2009

I support with what Banjonewguy wrote. My Father was a high school drop out but from an early age 12/13 in the late 20s early 30s he was obsessed with radio and radio communications. In fact when radio was starting to open up when him and his friend were very young they built their own radio transmitter and broke into a FM Morristown NJ radio station on the air waves and played country music from an old wind up Victrola. ....they got caught but only got a warning and a promise to stay off the air waves....my father went on to get a job with Air Craft Radio Corp in NJ. he only interrupted his employment with a 2 year communications stint in the army 1939/40. When he went back to ARC he was top engineer devising radio stabilization apparatus for fighter planes during ww2. again no formal training except with what he had in his head.....he also was a licensed Ham radio operator from a very young age to when he died....he built every short wave radio he owned...and those 50 foot antenna towers he had in our back yards my whole life.

Edited by - overhere on 01/24/2021 03:10:46

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