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Dec 4, 2020 - 12:41:21 PM
2425 posts since 12/31/2005

This is a graphite neck with Gold Tone 5th string tuner. Got it out of the case today for probably the first time in a month, or at least a few weeks. Pretty sure nobody else had access. Fifth string is way high, off the pip. The post for the 5th string tuner usually leaned a bit backwards (towards the peghead) but now is pointed more toward the bridge. But the tuner seems to be solidly set in the neck.

no matter how low I try to wrap the string on the post, the action is far to high to seat in the pip.

The pip does not appear to be chipped and it also appears to be seated solidly. No changes at the bridge or tailpiece.

Can the tuner twist forward independently of the part that anchors into the neck?

Is my fix a new 5th string tuner? Is the super high action a result of this forward rotation of the post?

Thanks in advance




Dec 4, 2020 - 12:51:14 PM

2636 posts since 4/16/2003

Something to try:
Take the 5th string OFF the 5th string peg.

Does the 5th geared peg now fall right out of the hold in the neck?

Dec 4, 2020 - 12:55 PM

2425 posts since 12/31/2005

quote:
Originally posted by J.Albert

Something to try:
Take the 5th string OFF the 5th string peg.

Does the 5th geared peg now fall right out of the hold in the neck?


Tried that.  No it doesn't.  Peg seems to be seated tightly.  That is partly why I am confused.  If it just spun in the hole, the answer would seem easy.  That's why I am wondering if the post can turn independently on these from the part that goes in the neck.

Dec 4, 2020 - 1:04:25 PM

Brett

USA

2405 posts since 11/29/2005

Do you think your tuner was glued in, might’ve turned loose in storage, then reset in new location/angle/depth?
If you have to, remove plastic tuner button, heat tuner with soldering iron and remove tuner and see what’s going on in the tuner hole.

Dec 4, 2020 - 1:07:44 PM

11012 posts since 10/27/2006

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Murphy
quote:
Originally posted by J.Albert

Something to try:
Take the 5th string OFF the 5th string peg.

Does the 5th geared peg now fall right out of the hold in the neck?


Tried that.  No it doesn't.  Peg seems to be seated tightly.  That is partly why I am confused.  If it just spun in the hole, the answer would seem easy.  That's why I am wondering if the post can turn independently on these from the part that goes in the neck.


Most cannot. Perhaps yours can but you won't know without removing it. If it can, needs to be replaced anyway. 

You may find that, you can turn the housing in the neck after all with the string off. If that's the case, you'll need to glue it in. For a graphite neck, epoxy is your best bet. If you ever need to remove it later, you can do so with heat from a soldering iron.

Dec 4, 2020 - 1:18:33 PM
like this

2425 posts since 12/31/2005

quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Murphy
quote:
Originally posted by J.Albert

Something to try:
Take the 5th string OFF the 5th string peg.

Does the 5th geared peg now fall right out of the hold in the neck?


Tried that.  No it doesn't.  Peg seems to be seated tightly.  That is partly why I am confused.  If it just spun in the hole, the answer would seem easy.  That's why I am wondering if the post can turn independently on these from the part that goes in the neck.


Most cannot. Perhaps yours can but you won't know without removing it. If it can, needs to be replaced anyway. 

You may find that, you can turn the housing in the neck after all with the string off. If that's the case, you'll need to glue it in. For a graphite neck, epoxy is your best bet. If you ever need to remove it later, you can do so with heat from a soldering iron.


Thanks.  I think that is going to be what I have to do.  Can't think of any other reason why the action would go so high, so I'm guessing that is my only question.

As for above question, tuner is not glued in.  In fact it came loose years ago and tapped back into place no problem.  But if I am going to have to epoxy, I am going to get a new tuner that is not defective.  No reason to epoxy one in that might be defective.

I rarely have any gear issues, but this past month, I had frets go bad on one banjo (apparently they were never set in right), a tailpiece completely ripped apart on a mandolin, and now this.  I have angered the music gods somehow.  Or maybe it is the universe telling me to stop making noise.

Dec 4, 2020 - 1:45:17 PM

rcc56

USA

3280 posts since 2/20/2016

Are you keeping your home, or at least the instrument storage room humidified? That could explain the frets and possibly the 5th string tuner. It wouldn't explain the mandolin tailpiece, though.

Dec 4, 2020 - 2:33:20 PM

3970 posts since 10/13/2005

Yep, the tuner rotated in the post hole, lifting the string too high to sit in the pip slot. That is why tuners are tilted forward to create the downward pressure to keep the string in the pip slot. Take a look at another banjo, or study some pictures closely to determine how much tilt you need.. Or just observe how much tilt the post needs to go for your banjo to sit comfortably in the pip slot. banjered

Dec 4, 2020 - 2:51:44 PM

2425 posts since 12/31/2005

quote:
Originally posted by rcc56

Are you keeping your home, or at least the instrument storage room humidified? That could explain the frets and possibly the 5th string tuner. It wouldn't explain the mandolin tailpiece, though.


Good thought, but they were in different locations  The fret issue involves a radiused neck.  The repair tech says the frets were not propery radiused before they were set, but were bent into place and then glued.  This neck is graphite.  It should be impervious to humidity changes.  I have left this banjo in the car on a summer day in the southern part of South Carolina (all metal rim - nothing to delaminate and not a glue seam on it).  

Dec 4, 2020 - 8:32:53 PM

11012 posts since 10/27/2006

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Murphy
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Murphy
quote:
Originally posted by J.Albert

Something to try:
Take the 5th string OFF the 5th string peg.

Does the 5th geared peg now fall right out of the hold in the neck?


Tried that.  No it doesn't.  Peg seems to be seated tightly.  That is partly why I am confused.  If it just spun in the hole, the answer would seem easy.  That's why I am wondering if the post can turn independently on these from the part that goes in the neck.


Most cannot. Perhaps yours can but you won't know without removing it. If it can, needs to be replaced anyway. 

You may find that, you can turn the housing in the neck after all with the string off. If that's the case, you'll need to glue it in. For a graphite neck, epoxy is your best bet. If you ever need to remove it later, you can do so with heat from a soldering iron.


Thanks.  I think that is going to be what I have to do.  Can't think of any other reason why the action would go so high, so I'm guessing that is my only question.

As for above question, tuner is not glued in.  In fact it came loose years ago and tapped back into place no problem.  But if I am going to have to epoxy, I am going to get a new tuner that is not defective.  No reason to epoxy one in that might be defective.

I rarely have any gear issues, but this past month, I had frets go bad on one banjo (apparently they were never set in right), a tailpiece completely ripped apart on a mandolin, and now this.  I have angered the music gods somehow.  Or maybe it is the universe telling me to stop making noise.


Graphite is a notoriously hard, slick material. A tuner can be tapped in and still rotate. I do agree that it's better to epoxy a new one than take the chance on something you might have to re-do.

Some replacement 5th gears have an anti-rotation fin . It's common to file this down before tapping into a wooden neck. I would do the opposite and file a notch for the fin in a carbon graphite neck. The right tool is a needle file shaped like a small knife blade.

Dec 4, 2020 - 9:21:20 PM

nakigreengrass

New Zealand

5502 posts since 5/16/2012

It might just be a trick of the photos....but.....it looks like the drum part of the tuner is on an angle to the body....If that's the case, check that the drum can't move back and forward in the housing....the bottom of the drum shaft could be broken.

Dec 5, 2020 - 6:16:06 AM
likes this

3970 posts since 10/13/2005

I use a pocket knife to cut the slot for the fin, works fine.. Lot's of good advice above. Just pay attention to the details and you'll be fine, a relative easy fix. banjered

Dec 5, 2020 - 6:53:11 AM

2425 posts since 12/31/2005

Thanks! The breadth of experience here is amazing.

Dec 31, 2020 - 10:52:36 AM
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2425 posts since 12/31/2005

Wanted to thank everyone for the help. More costly than I had hoped and had to go through a couple of sets of files until I found some small enough. Also, the replacement tuner (Gotoh) is larger in diameter than the GoldTone so Stewmac got to sell a reamer (that I'll probably never use again).

mikehalloran - Thank you for the tip on the rotation fin. That was key with the graphite since it seems to be the only thing that really holds the tuner. The rest is just hard surface on hard surface and the same thing would have likely happened down the road if I had not kept the fin.

After a slow process of a little reaming and filing the notch, the tuner went in well, and I have epoxied it into place. Tested it out before epoxying and string sits nicely in the pip.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and help!

Dec 31, 2020 - 11:46:11 AM

11012 posts since 10/27/2006

Yeaaaaa!!!!!!!

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