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Sep 26, 2020 - 9:50:39 AM

3012 posts since 4/29/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Edthebanjo
.....

I'm not sure where you got the idea that those with "well-to-do parents" were the only ones getting degrees until recently...? 

 


I "got the idea" by actually being there and seeing that most (who said all?) of the school leavers who made it to university back then came from comfortable middle class (UK definition) backgrounds. I disagree with tuition fees but it's hard to make a case that the free tuition available when I was a student was not mostly a subsidy of the already prosperous.

Sep 26, 2020 - 10:22:39 AM

Banjo Lefty

Canada

2029 posts since 6/19/2014

I worked my way through Law School, holding down a full-time teaching job at a junior college where I managed to arrange my schedule so that my teaching hours didn't conflict with my Law classes. My grade suffered as a result, but I made it through on my teaching salary, without any parental subsidy or government loan. I'm not saying that anybody could do this -- I had some advantages growing up, but money wasn't one of them.

Sep 26, 2020 - 10:38:36 AM

1879 posts since 3/29/2008

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewD
quote:
Originally posted by Edthebanjo
.....

I'm not sure where you got the idea that those with "well-to-do parents" were the only ones getting degrees until recently...? 

 


I "got the idea" by actually being there and seeing that most (who said all?) of the school leavers who made it to university back then came from comfortable middle class (UK definition) backgrounds. I disagree with tuition fees but it's hard to make a case that the free tuition available when I was a student was not mostly a subsidy of the already prosperous.


Do you think if two equally qualified people had applied for the same university place, one being working class, and one being middle class, the university would have chosen the middle class person more than half the time?

Edited by - Edthebanjo on 09/26/2020 10:39:07

Sep 26, 2020 - 1:50:11 PM
likes this

3012 posts since 4/29/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Edthebanjo
quote:
Originally posted by AndrewD
quote:
Originally posted by Edthebanjo
.....

I'm not sure where you got the idea that those with "well-to-do parents" were the only ones getting degrees until recently...? 

 


I "got the idea" by actually being there and seeing that most (who said all?) of the school leavers who made it to university back then came from comfortable middle class (UK definition) backgrounds. I disagree with tuition fees but it's hard to make a case that the free tuition available when I was a student was not mostly a subsidy of the already prosperous.


Do you think if two equally qualified people had applied for the same university place, one being working class, and one being middle class, the university would have chosen the middle class person more than half the time?


The middle class person went to a school that knew how to play the university entrance game. They had parents who knew the advantages of a university education. They had a family that did not need them to earn money as early as possible. etc. etc.   Not much has changed. And as to your actual question. Yes I do believe that. You only have to look at the advantages that the right (expensive) education brings over innate talent when applying for our most prestigious universities.  Just look at the mediocrities running our country after a stint at Eton and Oxford.

Sep 26, 2020 - 3:17:45 PM

1879 posts since 3/29/2008

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewD
quote:
Originally posted by Edthebanjo
quote:
Originally posted by AndrewD
quote:
Originally posted by Edthebanjo
.....

I'm not sure where you got the idea that those with "well-to-do parents" were the only ones getting degrees until recently...? 

 


I "got the idea" by actually being there and seeing that most (who said all?) of the school leavers who made it to university back then came from comfortable middle class (UK definition) backgrounds. I disagree with tuition fees but it's hard to make a case that the free tuition available when I was a student was not mostly a subsidy of the already prosperous.


Do you think if two equally qualified people had applied for the same university place, one being working class, and one being middle class, the university would have chosen the middle class person more than half the time?


The middle class person went to a school that knew how to play the university entrance game. They had parents who knew the advantages of a university education. They had a family that did not need them to earn money as early as possible. etc. etc.   Not much has changed. And as to your actual question. Yes I do believe that. You only have to look at the advantages that the right (expensive) education brings over innate talent when applying for our most prestigious universities.  Just look at the mediocrities running our country after a stint at Eton and Oxford.


No, I mean equally qualified people. Same a levels, and same grades, the only difference being the school they went to.

Sep 26, 2020 - 6:01:18 PM
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3023 posts since 10/17/2009

quote:
Originally posted by chuckv97

If those cats with 8 years post secondary edumication can’t get it right,, why the hey can a Joe Schmoe like me want go down a 1000 research rabbit holes on the Internet trying to find an answer, at the same time neglecting life issues and (gasp!) banjo practice....


The ability to understand difference between good science and logic is incredibly useful... understanding critical thinking, rules of logic and logic fallacies; look for sources and check; these eliminate most of the internet rabbit holes. It's really not as difficult as you think... doesn't require any post secondary education; nor as examples in this thread illustrate, is just some degree any guarantee.

To better understand most anything, start with actual experts, and what they have found, the work they have done. Distinguishing that from social media, blog experts conjecture, isn't generally too difficult.

What defines experts is not simply education or title or claim... but demonstrated, in the actual expertise, depth of their work and knowledge, the work they do, what they do and how they do it... and how that work stands up in that field of discipline; and has a strong track record; provides actual work, evidence, published peer-review research, science, explanation, methodology, maths.

Sep 26, 2020 - 11:40:10 PM

1204 posts since 8/7/2017

Various people wanted controlled studies showing masks don't work. Here is a video presenting CDC's own research summary paper, video posted 9/26/2020. The video shows the references as to who did the mask studies. I stand by my earlier statements (in agreement with this CDC report, btw) that masks don't work. Here is some supporting info for those still interested. The masks-don't-work reporting starts at about 1:29 if you want to skip ahead.

The earlier part of the video concerns the CDC director testifying that masks do work, which is in contradiction to his own department's study (see the start of the video for his testimony).  Why doe he testify in opposition to his own dept's research? Your guess is as good as mine.

youtube.com/watch?v=VPnohEZqS2Y

Edited by - BrooksMT on 09/26/2020 23:48:07

Sep 27, 2020 - 1:20:15 AM
like this

3012 posts since 4/29/2012

quote:
Originally posted by Edthebanjo
quote:
Originally posted by AndrewD
quote:
Originally posted by Edthebanjo
quote:
Originally posted by AndrewD
quote:
Originally posted by Edthebanjo
.....

I'm not sure where you got the idea that those with "well-to-do parents" were the only ones getting degrees until recently...? 

 


I "got the idea" by actually being there and seeing that most (who said all?) of the school leavers who made it to university back then came from comfortable middle class (UK definition) backgrounds. I disagree with tuition fees but it's hard to make a case that the free tuition available when I was a student was not mostly a subsidy of the already prosperous.


Do you think if two equally qualified people had applied for the same university place, one being working class, and one being middle class, the university would have chosen the middle class person more than half the time?


The middle class person went to a school that knew how to play the university entrance game. They had parents who knew the advantages of a university education. They had a family that did not need them to earn money as early as possible. etc. etc.   Not much has changed. And as to your actual question. Yes I do believe that. You only have to look at the advantages that the right (expensive) education brings over innate talent when applying for our most prestigious universities.  Just look at the mediocrities running our country after a stint at Eton and Oxford.


No, I mean equally qualified people. Same a levels, and same grades, the only difference being the school they went to.


Nowadays probably nearer 50/50 than it used to be, as many UK university departments have  abandoned face-to-face interviews as they were clearly introducing bias.  But many, particularly the more prestigious, still have interviews where the public school trained show pony will shine . But the middle class pupil will be also at a school that has got writing personal statements down to a fine art. We are getting into "Anybody is free to dine at the Ritz" territory here. The important thing is not whether those 2 18 year olds have equal chances of selection but whether as 2 year olds of equal potential and innate ability they had equal chances of achieving those grades. 

Late Edit....

Coincidentally just read this on today's BBC New site.

And apologies to everybody else for continuing this parallel tread on a completely different topic.

Edited by - AndrewD on 09/27/2020 01:32:31

Sep 27, 2020 - 5:34:09 AM

bubbalouie

Canada

14369 posts since 9/27/2007

I read an article yesterday that it's like watching the fall of the Roman Empire.

It hurts to watch our once great neighbour in this state.

Sep 27, 2020 - 6:04:23 AM

1356 posts since 2/4/2013

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewD
as many UK university departments have  abandoned face-to-face interviews as they were clearly introducing bias.  But many, particularly the more prestigious, still have interviews where the public school trained show pony will shine .

I don't think interviews have been used a lot for many decades. When I went in the 1980s I could have gone to Bath without an interview if I'd got my grades. None of the five universities on my list did interviews. Interviews as far as I'm aware have mainly been an Oxford/Cambride/certain London college thing with interviews for a few specific subjects only elsewhere. In my day we were invited to visit where the idea was to convince us to come by getting a grand tour of facilities.

Sep 27, 2020 - 6:12:52 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

14481 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty

I worked my way through Law School, holding down a full-time teaching job at a junior college where I managed to arrange my schedule so that my teaching hours didn't conflict with my Law classes. My grade suffered as a result, but I made it through on my teaching salary, without any parental subsidy or government loan. I'm not saying that anybody could do this -- I had some advantages growing up, but money wasn't one of them.


Just for curiosity's sake.  When was this?  When I started college, tuition at state schools was $100 a semester, with fees coming to another $175 or so.  To stay on campus in a dorm, the total costs were under $800 a semester so a low interest government loan of $1200 a year covered most of the costs of a year of living on campus.  I could easily pay for my community college expenses, even with the minimum wage being $1.60/hr.  My loan had 10 years to pay off, starting 9 months after I left school.  Today that University charges over $30,000 a semester, and the community college $3,550 plus additional fees that could push it well over $4,000 if you are not required to take the mandatory health insurance, which doubles the tuition costs.  At today's minimum wage of $7.25/hr, college is far less affordable today than it was when I first attended college.  And this is for an in state resident.  Out of state, or private college is far more expensive. 

Sep 27, 2020 - 6:17:21 AM
like this

3023 posts since 10/17/2009

quote:
Originally posted by BrooksMT

Various people wanted controlled studies showing masks don't work. Here is a video presenting CDC's own research summary paper, video posted 9/26/2020. The video shows the references as to who did the mask studies. I stand by my earlier statements (in agreement with this CDC report, btw) that masks don't work. Here is some supporting info for those still interested. The masks-don't-work reporting starts at about 1:29 if you want to skip ahead.

The earlier part of the video concerns the CDC director testifying that masks do work, which is in contradiction to his own department's study (see the start of the video for his testimony).  Why doe he testify in opposition to his own dept's research? Your guess is as good as mine.

youtube.com/watch?v=VPnohEZqS2Y


As with your other links... that's just a non-expert youtube conjecture with obvious political agenda, or conspiracy, and is starting with a conclusion, and trying to cherry pick info to support it. He only provides one study... so to address that, what might missed:

Why doe he testify in opposition to his own dept's research?

First off, his testimony was in August; that paper was dated Feb 6, 2020, and only covering up to 2016. With something that is happening in real time, you look at the data and information you have any given time; acknowledge what gaps; and as the information changes, then you need to be able to be flexible enough to change how you think about things.

But more direct mistake...  CDC director testimony is not in contradiction to his own department's research. The Feb 6, 2020 paper was published in CDC's Journal Emerging Infectious Disease. Which is not the CDC's own research, nor it's report, nor it's recommendations.

The conclusions, findings, and opinions expressed by authors contributing to this journal do not necessarily reflect the official position of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the Public Health Service, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, or the authors' affiliated institutions. Use of trade names is for identification only and does not imply endorsement by any of the groups named above.

Perhaps might not understand Science Journals.  Journals publish findings of researchers. Many different research papers from different lines of study. A single study is not definitive, and often inconclusive... esp. with emerging research; but valid point of discussion. They also publish rebuttals and follow up discussion letters, such as this https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/8/20-1498_article. That's how science progresses. 

The paper itself: was accessing known previous research on various nonpharmaceutical measures specifically on Influenza A. It did not cover Coronavirus, SARs, Rhinovirus. It is important to note they didn't find that masks don't work, nor controlled study directly test the effectiveness of masks, nor Coronavirus, as was not the point of the study. The point of the study was to identify several major knowledge gaps requiring further research. Which is listed in Table 2. The very few studies they looked at are limited and inconclusive, there are gaps in what we know, more research needs to be done. Of the 7 studies on face mask alone, did find a lower RR as shown in figure 2. (Suess et al 2012 found 0.38 RR) - They point out "Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group." They also couple NPI that with the have large gaps about person to person transmission. But they do note; "face masks might be able to reduce the transmission of other infections" (other than Influenza). There conclusion was "we don't know" which different than saying "mask-don't- work".

------------ 

Of course that was one paper (which only goes up to 2016). There are other studies looking more directly at face masks efficacy, and Coronavirus; especially recent research since the COVID outbreak.  That's how actual science progresses; works to fill in gaps ,and improve knowledge. Which is probably what the CDC Directors testimony was based on... the best available up to date knowledge. 

Not one of the studies has ever found that a cloth mask makes the slightest difference in infection rate. You can look up the studies, or a survey of the studies yourself. It's public knowledge, available to the public.

Yes, you can look up studies yourself... As Bolie had previously provided article addressed, lists links to sources, peer-reviewed science, which of course shows it's work, methodology, data, math; and from different lines of inquiry. They do not agree with your conclusion.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspa.2020.0376

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2#Sec3

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2#Sec3

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

http://files.fast.ai/papers/masks_lit_review.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342198360_Association_of_country-wide_coronavirus_mortality_with_demographics_testing_lockdowns_and_public_wearing_of_masks_Update_June_15_2020

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.17.20069567v2.full.pdf

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007800

this last one has a video illustrating droplets without and with mask.

As well https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2 As in Figure 1 shows similar to that video... and the difference between Influenza, Coronavirus and Rhinovirus. Droplets and Aerosols, with and without masks.

And DC5 posted this link onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10...jep.13415

These are just some, there are many more on sites like researchgate, PubMed. Far more direct and reliable than what you find on a youtube blog. Science is about evidence... in the form of  peer reviewed published research and studies. Thus there is scientific evidence supporting effectiveness of masks.

Interesting that your response/dismissal was only about 25 minutes after Bolie posted? Bolie followed up...

.....please address each research study linked in the article. Please address the instances of "phony" science within the article. Please address what you consider the many falsehoods and lies within the article.

You never addressed. Probably be more useful to read and discuss what actual science experts and research says, than simply putting up social media youtube conjecture and non-science opinion.

BTW, your previous science hypothesis and testing had some huge erroneous assumptions wrt how Coronovirus and masks actually work.

Edited by - banjoak on 09/27/2020 06:33:30

Sep 27, 2020 - 6:42:43 AM

3012 posts since 4/29/2012

quote:
Originally posted by GrahamHawker
quote:
Originally posted by AndrewD
as many UK university departments have  abandoned face-to-face interviews as they were clearly introducing bias.  But many, particularly the more prestigious, still have interviews where the public school trained show pony will shine .

I don't think interviews have been used a lot for many decades. When I went in the 1980s I could have gone to Bath without an interview if I'd got my grades. None of the five universities on my list did interviews. Interviews as far as I'm aware have mainly been an Oxford/Cambride/certain London college thing with interviews for a few specific subjects only elsewhere. In my day we were invited to visit where the idea was to convince us to come by getting a grand tour of facilities.


I though they'd mostly died out as well so I did a bit of research. Found this. Seems that if I wanted to do, say, English Literature at my alma-mater nowadays I'd be interviewed.

Sep 27, 2020 - 6:46:28 AM
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Players Union Member

DC5

USA

14481 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by BrooksMT

Various people wanted controlled studies showing masks don't work. Here is a video presenting CDC's own research summary paper, video posted 9/26/2020. The video shows the references as to who did the mask studies. I stand by my earlier statements (in agreement with this CDC report, btw) that masks don't work. Here is some supporting info for those still interested. The masks-don't-work reporting starts at about 1:29 if you want to skip ahead.

The earlier part of the video concerns the CDC director testifying that masks do work, which is in contradiction to his own department's study (see the start of the video for his testimony).  Why doe he testify in opposition to his own dept's research? Your guess is as good as mine.

youtube.com/watch?v=VPnohEZqS2Y


Easy to pick and choose data for a propaganda video that supports your position and the beliefs of your followers.  This is why I don't get my science from youtube.  Here's a link to an actual CDC study showing the effectiveness of masks. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-0948_article

In addition, here is a link to a CDC study on board the USS Theodore Roosevelt demonstrating a clear advantage to mask wearing.  https://americanmilitarynews.com/2020/06/cdc-study-of-roosevelt-outbreak-finds-lower-rates-of-covid-19-among-sailors-who-wore-masks/

In the video he talks about the success of Sweden doing no mandatory mask wearing and no mandatory social distancing, but "trusting the citizens"  As of today, Sweden has had 5,880 C-19 deaths, where neighboring Norway has only had 270 deaths, and Finland only 343.  Which method would you rather take?  Sweden's death rate is 581 per million, nearly the same as the U.S. at 631 per million.  Compare to Norway of 50 per million, or Finland of 62 per million.  The maker of this video has no credibility with me. 

Sep 27, 2020 - 8:22:32 AM

Banjo Lefty

Canada

2029 posts since 6/19/2014

quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by Banjo Lefty

I worked my way through Law School, holding down a full-time teaching job at a junior college where I managed to arrange my schedule so that my teaching hours didn't conflict with my Law classes. My grade suffered as a result, but I made it through on my teaching salary, without any parental subsidy or government loan. I'm not saying that anybody could do this -- I had some advantages growing up, but money wasn't one of them.


Just for curiosity's sake.  When was this?  When I started college, tuition at state schools was $100 a semester, with fees coming to another $175 or so.  To stay on campus in a dorm, the total costs were under $800 a semester so a low interest government loan of $1200 a year covered most of the costs of a year of living on campus.  I could easily pay for my community college expenses, even with the minimum wage being $1.60/hr.  My loan had 10 years to pay off, starting 9 months after I left school.  Today that University charges over $30,000 a semester, and the community college $3,550 plus additional fees that could push it well over $4,000 if you are not required to take the mandatory health insurance, which doubles the tuition costs.  At today's minimum wage of $7.25/hr, college is far less affordable today than it was when I first attended college.  And this is for an in state resident.  Out of state, or private college is far more expensive. 


I started Law in September, 1976.  Got my first degree, an LLB (the equivalent of an American JD) in 1980, and the second, a BCL (civil law, like they practise in Lousiana), in 1982.  I don't remember what the tuition cost -- somewhere around $1800 a year -- and I earned $24 an hour teaching.  In my first year of practice I made less than $12,000, so it was a darn good thing that I didn't have any student debt!

Sep 27, 2020 - 4:33:38 PM

1204 posts since 8/7/2017

More videos about masks. Maybe the "regular appearance" of this medical doctor (Dr. Pamela Popper, living and working in Columbus, Ohio) will convince more BHO members to take her seriously. I knew the "weird old guy" appearance of the man I cited in an earlier post might bother some BHO people. I like to think that I value the information presented over the appearance of the reporter.

Much mask research is on influenza, not Covid-19. This is because: a) influenza, a viral respiratory disease, has been of interest to humans for longer than Covid-19, so there are more studies, b) Dr. Fauci says mask research on Covid-19 would expose people to the virus (the control group not wearing a mask) and that would be unethical. There are actually ways to ethically surmount this problem (which occurs in All disease research, not just Covid-19), but Dr. Fauci seems not to know them. If you are interested in ethical research. call up your local health department or medical university for information.

Two Dr. Popper videos:
"What the research shows about masks"
video date 5/5/2020
youtube.com/watch?v=YQo7bV2hzBY

"The CDC says masks do not work"
video date:7/30/202
youtube.com/watch?v=dU4ZWgaUTRM

Edited by - BrooksMT on 09/27/2020 16:39:41

Sep 28, 2020 - 6:39:31 AM
likes this

kww

USA

735 posts since 6/21/2008

quote:
Originally posted by BrooksMT

More videos about masks.


Maybe if you didn't get your information from YouTube, you wouldn't be wrong all the time.

Sep 28, 2020 - 6:46:30 AM

phb

Germany

2170 posts since 11/8/2010

I paid about 200€ total in registration fees for Technische Universität Berlin in 1993 and left with an award that gave me 4,000€ prize money for being among the top 20 graduates that year. I actually made money going to uni... :o)

Sep 28, 2020 - 7:00:54 AM
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chuckv97

Canada

53461 posts since 10/5/2013

I paid off my student loans from the 1970’s, then again when I got my B.A. in the 1990’s. Then I bought 2 guitars and 3 banjos - iz why I drive a cheap Hyundai and rarely buy steak....

Sep 28, 2020 - 7:55:42 AM

73410 posts since 5/9/2007

I would say lawyering would be some of the most lucrative and busy work these days.

Sep 28, 2020 - 8:56:25 AM
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Banjo Lefty

Canada

2029 posts since 6/19/2014

quote:
Originally posted by steve davis

I would say lawyering would be some of the most lucrative and busy work these days.


Not if you go to work, as I did, for Legal Aid.

Sep 28, 2020 - 11:04:16 AM

73410 posts since 5/9/2007

I think one needs to live near Washington,D.C.

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