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Sep 22, 2020 - 11:07:47 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

14584 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by birdman

For most of the 200,000 covid was a factor in their death not the sole cause. If you have terminal cancer, test positive covid then pass away, it was not the covid that killed you. But you know that, right


If you have terminal cancer but die of a heart attack while driving your car and go off a cliff, what killed you?  It's already been discussed to death that you die from complications due to.  Links have been posted as to how this is calculated, but, like everything else, you choose to ignore it.  Death numbers are higher since C-19 reared it's head.  So yes, terminal cancer patients with C-19 die, but before C-19 the numbers of Cancer patients dying was lower than they are now.  I've lost 2 friends, and had one in the hospital for 3 months from C-19.  None had pre-existing conditions.  Only 1 was over 60. 

Oh, and good job avoiding your bogus car accident data.  You can't win on facts, so you resort to the same denier nonsense without backing it up with anything.  We are supposed to accept what you say because you say it, and not accept what the data, scientists and medical professionals say. 

Edited by - DC5 on 09/22/2020 11:10:39

Sep 22, 2020 - 11:08:08 AM
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RB3

USA

829 posts since 4/12/2004

This reminds me of the old Chinese proverb about teaching a man to fish.

If a man has a fish, it may have been given to him. Or, someone may have taught him how to fish and he caught it himself. In this case I think it's the former. If you don't have the good sense to learn from the advice of folks who are knowledgeable on subjects about which you know nothing, why would we expect anyone to be able to teach you anything.

Sep 22, 2020 - 11:14 AM

kww

USA

745 posts since 6/21/2008

After so many discussions I have had on the board on another topic, I find it quite entertaining to see you all play my role and Birdman play yours. Arguing when one side keeps shouting "Freedom!" and refusing to take any responsibility for the consequences of their choices is frustrating, isn't it?

Sep 22, 2020 - 11:15:18 AM

donc

Canada

6471 posts since 2/9/2010

quote:
Originally posted by birdman
quote:
Originally posted by paco0909

I am in hospital for orthopedic issues. This hospital closed all elective surgeries and was completely filled with Covid victims many of whom died. None of the doctors or nurses died primarily because of masks and isolation protocols. People died because of the lack of masks and protocols. Although many were elderly or had pre-existing conditions, many were young and healthy until contracting this disease. Some of the opinions in this and other BHO threads are appalling and contradicts facts of the disease. Shut up and wear a mask to protect your friends and family, your children and your self. Your negligence is murder.


    Aint freedom great? You can wear your mask and i can choose not to with no repercussions 


If you can achieve 200,000 deaths by not wearing masks another 800,000 fatalities  should be no problem at all. It will only be a repercussion for the poor sods who get infected .  Ya..  freedom is great but it doesn't come cheap. 

Sep 22, 2020 - 11:19:29 AM

birdman

USA

475 posts since 8/24/2004

quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by birdman

For most of the 200,000 covid was a factor in their death not the sole cause. If you have terminal cancer, test positive covid then pass away, it was not the covid that killed you. But you know that, right


If you have terminal cancer but die of a heart attack while driving your car and go off a cliff, what killed you?  It's already been discussed to death that you die from complications due to.  Links have been posted as to how this is calculated, but, like everything else, you choose to ignore it.  Death numbers are higher since C-19 reared it's head.  So yes, terminal cancer patients with C-19 die, but before C-19 the numbers of Cancer patients dying was lower than they are now.  I've lost 2 friends, and had one in the hospital for 3 months from C-19.  None had pre-existing conditions.  Only 1 was over 60. 

Oh, and good job avoiding your bogus car accident data.  You can't win on facts, so you resort to the same denier nonsense without backing it up with anything.  We are supposed to accept what you say because you say it, and not accept what the data, scientists and medical professionals say. 


I responded Dave .

Sep 22, 2020 - 11:22:49 AM
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1207 posts since 8/7/2017

Well folks, I worked as a real scientist for 13 years. Then, I got lucky and could retire. My degree in Biology BS from Stanford, 1976. I attended 8 years of grad school too, but left w/o a degree, see above.

1. The effect of masks on respiratory viruses has been studied since the 1940's. That's 80 years of research, if you don't have a phone app. Not one of the studies has ever found that a cloth mask makes the slightest difference in infection rate. You can look up the studies, or a survey of the studies yourself. It's public knowledge, available to the public.

2. The co-inventor/developer of the M95 mask (he's Canadian, btw) was interviewed about Covid and his mask. He was talking about the variety of mask with the rubber seal device all around the filter (some of the cheaper ones don't have that). He said that M95's don't work to protect others, but only protect the wearer. The reason they don't protect others is that the majority of masks sold don't have a relief valve for coughs/sneezes. The over-pressure generated by a cough, sneeze, (and I'll add by a laugh), causes the edges of the mask to lift, and the sneeze, etc. shoots out the sides. There are a couple youtube videos showing this, look them up if you wish. Anyone who has studied fluid mechanics (I took a course, in addition, I am a pilot and a sailor, both intimately involved with understanding flow of fluids), would understand the phenomenon. Ditto if you ever put your finger over the end of a garden hose :-)

3. The main reason cloth masks don't protect the wearer against viruses is that the pore size in the cloth is way bigger than the virus. As a scientist (retired) I like to test things. So, I took a handkerchief from my handkerchief drawer, and measured the pore size. This handkerchief had pores 125 microns in diameter (a micron is 1/millionth of a meter). The covid-19 virus is 0.1 micron in diameter. So, 1250 viruses marching shoulder to shoulder could pass through a single pore of my handkerchief.

4. Other cloth is woven tighter, you could measure the pore size of your mask if you wished. Cloth masks usually have more than one layer. So the pores the virus see will be smaller than the pore of a single layer (due to some pores being partially blocked by thread in an adjacent layer). To guarantee a "jail cell" type barrier to covid (bars too close to let passage of prisoner/virus) a mask made of my handkerchief fabric would need 1249 layers (probability theory email me for explanation). No one wears that many layers, of course; I doubt you could breathe through that many layers. There are other phenomenon that work in filtering besides the jail cell process. So, your mask may work better if the pore size is smaller than my handkerchief, and you would not need over a thousand layers of fabric.


5. To protect against spreading germs via sneezes, you need to seal the edge of the mask. What masks do this? Stop by your local fire station and ask to see the masks they wear to protect against smoke. You will probably find a) they are full face masks b) they have multiple sealing ridges around the periphery of the rubber c) they have elaborate straps to keep the mask tightly in place d) they may have discharge valves to vent the over-pressure of a sneeze lifting the edges of the mask.

6. Smoke varies in size from molecular (invisible aromatic chem. fumes) to visible (eg. cigarette smoke). Cigarette smoke particles are primarily between 0.2 micron and 2 mm. So, a mask that would contain cig. smoke would likely contain virus that was exhaled with a simple breath (still need the edge seal for containment of sneeze). Likewise, if the mask kept smoke in, it would keep smoke particles out. Thus, you could test your mask for regular breathing & covid containment by seeing if it would contain a lungful of cigarette smoke.

7. When I was a teenager, my friend had a car and enough money for gas. He did not have enough money to buy a new air filter. So, when he felt the gas mileage was dropping due to clogged air filter, he'd clean it himself: drive to gas station with an air hose, remove filter from car, reverse flush the filter with the air hose. Clouds of dust would result *smiles*. When you sneeze/cough/laugh with your mask on, you are reverse flushing it, just as my friend did with his car air filter. I measured my breath volume and rate of breathing: when sitting, I breath 1/pint air per breath, and my breathing rate is 15breaths/minute=900/hour. When I reverse flush my mask with a explosive discharge of air, some (all?) of what's collected on the outside of my mask is re-aerosolized back into the air.

If you are walking behind me, you are going to walk through that cloud of gunk that was just blown off my mask. Lets assume best case scenario (for me), namely that my mask excludes all particles from my lungs. Lets assume there was 1 particle of X per pint of air, and I wore the mask for an hour. Now, if half of that was blown off my mask, what would you breath? Answer: 451 particles of X (1 particle that was already there, plus the 450 particles that I just released). On the other hand, if I had not been wearing my mask, you'd be exposed to 1+1 =2 particles (1 that was already there, and 1 that I had just released from my lungs). The probability you will catch a viral disease is directly proportional to how many virus particles you take in over a given amount of time. Would you rather take in 2 particles due to my maskless sneeze, or 451 particles due to my masked sneeze? You be the judge.

So, there is a scientific basis (80 years of studies) and a logical basis for distrusting masks wrt covid protection.
-----------------
If you disagree with my analysis, that's fine with me. It's your right. And as a matter of course, I wear a mask when entering a business that requires them: I don't want to hurt someone's mental health by appearing maskless and giving them conniptions (not that common in MT, btw). But, if I really care for the people I'm around, I don't wear a mask.

Edited by - BrooksMT on 09/22/2020 11:33:06

Sep 22, 2020 - 11:23:22 AM

215 posts since 4/10/2018

That is where you guys might be headed. Good luck.

Sep 22, 2020 - 11:35:40 AM
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4828 posts since 10/6/2009

quote:
Originally posted by BrooksMT

Well folks, I worked as a real scientist for 13 years...............................So, there is a scientific basis (80 years of studies) and a logical basis for distrusting masks wrt covid protection.
-----------------
If you disagree with my analysis, that's fine with me. It's your right. And as a matter of course, I wear a mask when entering a business that requires them: I don't want to hurt someone's mental health by appearing maskless and giving them conniptions (not that common in MT, btw). But, if I really care for the people I'm around, I don't wear a mask.


Unfortunately, even though you were a "real scientist" for 13 years, there is overwhelming scientific evidence that masks are effective (and critical) in fighting Covid. By you wearing a mask as you enter ANY business (not just those requiring them) you are keeping them safe from any spread you may have. By you not wearing a mask while with "people you really care for".....you are negligent and selfish. 

Here's a good summary from UCSF about mask effectiveness. You can find many dozens more that have been written and researched by experienced epidemiologists and healthcare scientists that have decades of experience and are fighting this in the real world.

Sep 22, 2020 - 11:46:56 AM

1361 posts since 2/4/2013

Most masks are not for your protection. They are for the protection of others.

Sep 22, 2020 - 11:47 AM

chuckv97

Canada

53602 posts since 10/5/2013
Online Now

It’s not just scientific facts, pro or con - it’s the politicization of mask-wearing that also got everything upside down.

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:01:22 PM

1207 posts since 8/7/2017

UCSF summary cited by Mr. Bolie Jackson: I read it, thanks for the url. Sigh, this is the type of phony handwaving "science" that has permeated the whole Covid discussion.

For the rest of BHO members: if you can't figure out the phoniness yourself, and you don't believe me (which is your right, as I stated), then perhaps you could pass the UCSF summary by a local scientist you trust. Or, you could search out the 2 interviews given by Dr. Fauci where he states that masks should not be worn. Yes the video exists, and yes, he flip flops on lots of statements.... He's Not a reliable source of information, for me, anyway (and other real scientists). But he has more status than me, so it is what it is, believe who you want.
-------------------
The USA is plagued by the "expert" culture. Rather than figuring out stuff for ourselves, we are taught to trust the "experts" rather than our own intelligence. If you are interested in the danger of reliance on experts, I suggest the book "The wisdom of crowds" by James Surowiecki (columnist for the New Yorker magazine, among other things; he's not a conservative). For a taste of what you'll read in his book: He writes that if experts are given a test in their field of expertise, the average score they get is only 50% right answers. What's worse, is that if asked after the test what score they think they got, they say "oh, high 90's...there were a couple questions I had to think about, but I worked it out right in the end." In short, experts are only right half the time, but they are convinced they are right "high 90's" percent of the time. I suggest you use your own brain, and trust your own take on a situation. Seek out their advice, it's all data....but draw your own conclusions.

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:17:06 PM
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chuckv97

Canada

53602 posts since 10/5/2013
Online Now

If those cats with 8 years post secondary edumication can’t get it right,, why the hey can a Joe Schmoe like me want go down a 1000 research rabbit holes on the Internet trying to find an answer, at the same time neglecting life issues and (gasp!) banjo practice....

Edited by - chuckv97 on 09/22/2020 12:17:32

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:29:49 PM

2301 posts since 4/22/2018

quote:
Originally posted by birdman
 

     Do you really believe that all 16 would be alive today if everyone wore masks? I sure dont.

         Driving is much more dangerous than covid and we all know it, yet most of us do it multiple times daily. Think of all the lives we could save if there no cars. Think of all the innocent people who have died because of cars.   


It would be a lot more dangerous if we didn't wear seatbelts.

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:34:25 PM
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4828 posts since 10/6/2009

I love it when people say we should figure things out ourselves rather than "trusting the experts". Astounding when it comes to real life situations that actually DEMAND the consensus of the experts and science to date. If I'm learning to scuba dive I go to a certified PADI dive center and learn from experts. When I go to the hospital I damn sure want the best "expert" that can address my life-threatening issue. If I want to learn about astrophysics...I take a course in the subject taught by experts in the field. I know about the Wisdom of Crowds by Surowiecki. It most certainly does not apply to the people believing the overwhelming scientific evidence about wearing masks to protect yourselves and others. By "seeking out the advice and data" of the effectiveness of mask wearing.....it most certainly makes sense for me, and hopefully others that can infect me, to use the overwhelming consensus of those best prepared to present the science.

The lemmings that (mostly politically motivated) attack education, science, and news sources......while promoting that they can "figure things out themselves" are putting others at risk. You don't like what you hear? "FAKE NEWS!" You don't like the scientific consensus and recommendations? "DON'T TRUST THE EXPERTS!" "LIBERTY"!

Meanwhile the rest of us are effected by that negligence/ignorance

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:34:46 PM
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Players Union Member

DC5

USA

14584 posts since 6/30/2015

BrooksMT , I wish you could point me to some of these studies from 1940 on, rather than making me look for them, but I do have a couple of statements regarding your post. BTW, for the record, I do have a Masters in Science Education, and I taught Biology, Physics and General Science for 15 years.

You are right regarding the size of the virus, vs. the size of the pores in a single layer cloth. But what you failed to note is that you do not breath, cough, or laugh out individual viruses. The viruses are attached to water droplets that greatly exceed the pore size, and multiple layers give multiple chances to trap these virus containing water droplets. This is why it is important to remove the mask by the ear loops, and not the fabric portion of the mask. Sneezing does not "reverse flush" the mask, unless you take the mask off, turn it around, and then sneeze. Sneezing might force some virus through the mask, but most likely would embed them further into another layer of the mask.

Surgeons have been wearing masks since 1937, which predates your 1940 study by 3 years. If your study showed they were ineffective, then can you explain why they still wear them? BTW, surgeons wear masks to protect the patient, not protect themselves. They don't wear rubber sealed masks, but simple multi-layered surgical masks. Since they wear them to protect patients, why don't germs that the doctor is wearing sneak out the side of the mask?

If you want me to read a particular study, please provide a link and I will. I don't have time to search for the millions of documents on both sides of this. I've read enough documents and studies showing that masks are effective. I'll happily read contrary studies from reliable sources.

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:34:51 PM

birdman

USA

475 posts since 8/24/2004

quote:
Originally posted by chuckv97

It’s not just scientific facts, pro or con - it’s the politicization of mask-wearing that also got everything upside down.


   I agree with your point but I am positive we would disagree on who exactly politicized it.

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:39:23 PM
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4828 posts since 10/6/2009

quote:
Originally posted by BrooksMT

UCSF summary cited by Mr. Bolie Jackson: I read it, thanks for the url. Sigh, this is the type of phony handwaving "science" that has permeated the whole Covid discussion.


Rather than a general, lazy dismissal of a scientific based column from a reputable University as "phony".....please address each research study linked in the article. Please address the instances of "phony" science within the article. Please address what you consider the many falsehoods and lies within the article. Please point out the many examples in your eyes of "handwaving science". Thanks

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:39:33 PM
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Players Union Member

DC5

USA

14584 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by birdman
quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by birdman

For most of the 200,000 covid was a factor in their death not the sole cause. If you have terminal cancer, test positive covid then pass away, it was not the covid that killed you. But you know that, right


If you have terminal cancer but die of a heart attack while driving your car and go off a cliff, what killed you?  It's already been discussed to death that you die from complications due to.  Links have been posted as to how this is calculated, but, like everything else, you choose to ignore it.  Death numbers are higher since C-19 reared it's head.  So yes, terminal cancer patients with C-19 die, but before C-19 the numbers of Cancer patients dying was lower than they are now.  I've lost 2 friends, and had one in the hospital for 3 months from C-19.  None had pre-existing conditions.  Only 1 was over 60. 

Oh, and good job avoiding your bogus car accident data.  You can't win on facts, so you resort to the same denier nonsense without backing it up with anything.  We are supposed to accept what you say because you say it, and not accept what the data, scientists and medical professionals say. 


I responded Dave .


You claimed cars were more deadly than Covid, and provided no data.  I provided data showing that Covid was more than 6 times more deadly than cars.  When did you respond to this?  If you did, the post has been removed.  You make a bogus claim, get proven wrong, and come back with different bogus claims or statements. 

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:52:49 PM

43 posts since 2/7/2020

The guy who invented the N95 mask filter seems pretty pro mask. ge.usembassy.gov/meet-the-u-s-...k-filter/

Don't know about the M95 mask though.

Sep 22, 2020 - 12:53:50 PM
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Players Union Member

DC5

USA

14584 posts since 6/30/2015

Here's a link to a study that addresses many critiques and myths regarding the effectiveness of masks. Spoiler alert, it determines that mask wearing is effective in curbing the spread of C-19.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10...jep.13415

Sep 22, 2020 - 2:24:52 PM

1207 posts since 8/7/2017

Here, by request, are some urls regarding masks:

"what the research shows about masks":youtube.com/watch?v=YQo7bV2hzBY&t=34s

"the CDC says masks don't work":youtube.com/watch?v=dU4ZWgaUTRM

"PPE developer on the N95 masks":rebelnews.com/ppe_developer_ro..._filtered

I'm sorry I misspelled N95 in my previous post, mea culpa.
---------------------------------------
My "lazy" response to the UCFS study - Sorry, the errors were so obvious to me, I thought anyone could see them too. I don't think the people who could not see them are stupid. I do think those people got a crappy education in science. That's not my fault, that's not the kid's fault, that's the teacher's fault. Lots of adults don't understand the scientific method, that's too bad. You don't believe me, that's ok. You don't feel you can find the errors, well, take your question to a person you do trust. Do it privately, though, because health professionals who speak out against the Covid Narrative (Narrative = Masks Work! HCQ Does Not Work! Lockdowns are Necessary!) are getting punished by State Boards of Health - these are the same professionals who have actually Cured Covid patients, and they are getting punished...the world is upside down.
-----------------------
The BHO people who have a question about banjos post them on this site. They sift through the (usually) varied answers they get, try them out, and pick the answer that works for them. Did you know that science is basically what you were doing? You researched the subject, you got different hypotheses, you then tested the hypotheses. And if you later got new information about your banjo question, you probably tried that out too, just in case it worked better...again, you are acting like a real scientist.

Now health questions are very important - maybe even more important than banjo questions (no no, say it's not so--joke). If you trust experts on health, that's not a bad thing. But if you don't seek out the "alternative" hypothesis experts, the consequences for you are going to be a lot more significant than dealing with banjo. Because, as the book I cited says, experts are wrong 50% of the time. Wrong notes are painful to the ear, wrong medical advice may be deadly.

How many of you have gone to a doc with a problem, tried his prescription, and had to go back because it did not work? Why do you think Covid is any different?
----------------
I have learned not to do other people's research for them. If they don't believe me, they won't believe my sources either. Nothing is free, you have to do your own work/research.

The saving grace in Covid-19 is that it is not that deadly, unless you are old (me) or sick already with something else. So, lots of people will do the medically wrong thing, but it won't kill them (that's good that they live, btw). Unfortunately for posterity, these medical blunders will become enshrined in Best Practice....and the cycle will repeat next time. Proof? We are reusing the bad principles from the last SARS virus, principles that were DEBUNKED by the govt study that looked at the mistakes made in the 1st SARS response....and Lockdowns were specifically cited as making the problem worse in that govt. study. I guess no one in govt. can read.

Edited by - BrooksMT on 09/22/2020 14:40:02

Sep 22, 2020 - 2:32 PM

4828 posts since 10/6/2009

I didn’t think you would. Whatever

Sep 22, 2020 - 2:32:57 PM

1207 posts since 8/7/2017

Sep 22, 2020 - 4:24:41 PM

Owen

Canada

6917 posts since 6/5/2011
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by chuckv97

So the whole world, even the many countries’ health professionals who couldn’t give a hoot about American politics, is in on some huge conspiracy? Who’s drinking who’s kool-aid....?


I'm greatly relieved that this is yet another all-or-nothing issue.  cheeky

Sep 22, 2020 - 4:47:03 PM

1135 posts since 1/25/2017

Virtually all of the masks alleged to be necessary to impede the China Virus are manufactured in - you guessed it - China...

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