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Jul 20, 2020 - 6:33:19 PM
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73410 posts since 5/9/2007

My hero today is Mr. David for walking into the no-name storm troopers and wanting to know under whose authority they were there.
They sprayed him with pepper spray and broke his hand.
Mr. David is a Navy veteran and showed up because he heard what was going on and didn't like it.Decided to confront all that power to make a point.

That's a huge pair.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/20/2020 18:34:03

Jul 21, 2020 - 4:46:11 AM
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55991 posts since 12/14/2005

While I should like to thank Mr. David for standing up to nameless bullies, I do WONDER how, on THIS particular forum, one might comment on what APPEARS to be an abuse of power by a politician, without violating the RULE (on THIS particular forum) against "political" discussions.

Jul 21, 2020 - 4:47:22 AM

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

25102 posts since 8/3/2003
Online Now

It isn't possible. Let's try to stay away from politics, please.

Jul 21, 2020 - 4:48:44 AM

73410 posts since 5/9/2007

I think of it as a great story of what some feel is the right thing to do,no matter the consequences.

Jul 21, 2020 - 6:41:43 AM
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Tobus

USA

2383 posts since 11/17/2015

I'm sure he had good intentions, but the guy is an idiot. You don't wait until violent protests are in progress and decide to go "confront" the police to challenge their morals. The guy knew what was going to happen to him, and did it in order to make himself a victim for the cameras. If he really thought they were going to stop and have a friendly conversation with him about whether they should obey their orders, he should be committed to a looney bin.

I make no judgment on his moral convictions or bravery. Just his choice of action. This was planned for maximum victimhood and attention, just like a lot of the shenanigans going on right now. People are antagonizing the police and intentionally putting themselves in positions to draw out a reaction, and then screaming how they've been victimized. They're gaming the system and manipulating the narrative, folks. No matter which side of all of this you land on, you should at least recognize these tactics for what they are.

Jul 21, 2020 - 7:00:40 AM
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73410 posts since 5/9/2007

Mr. David refused pain meds when they reset his hand in the hospital.
His action against unlawful policing for all the world to see and discuss was and remains brilliant in my opinion.

Jul 21, 2020 - 7:06:10 AM
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banjoy

USA

9169 posts since 7/1/2006

Ummm ... of course ... and the jackboot unmarked secret police thugs are not performing for the cameras, either, right?

Got it.

Jul 21, 2020 - 7:07:40 AM
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73410 posts since 5/9/2007

Chicago is saying "No" to their presence.

Jul 21, 2020 - 7:41:57 AM
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2198 posts since 1/16/2010

The rioters were very out of hand in Portland, just as they were Seattle. The police called in to re-establish order were just following orders from the chain-of-command...same as Mr. David would have been doing were he still in the military. That’s how they support their families...doing their job. They didn’t just go out there on their own accord for the heck of it, Portland is in disarray and unsafe for regular people. It took guts for those policemen to go out there knowing there would be violence aimed against them.

Jul 21, 2020 - 7:46:46 AM

3176 posts since 9/12/2016

Being a veteran does not--- in itself--- prove a bit towards heroism --but a good thing to throw on the hype pile----

I don't know if he ever faced off  with the enemy in a war while in the navy----but kinda feel it would have been mentioned---but could be wrong--I ask no one to agree and know some won't---

I turned off the news a week ago anyway---got tired of being played like a drum---being told a complete city was saying something ---

Edited by - Tractor1 on 07/21/2020 07:57:31

Jul 21, 2020 - 7:55:58 AM
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73410 posts since 5/9/2007

The protesters are simply fed up with inaction.
What needs to happen are meetings all over the country to find out what everyone is so upset about and what to do to fix it.
Throwing storm troopers in the mix to anonymously drag people away is a thing done in places like the soviet union.This will only make things worse.
In America we all get together and solve our problems like grown-ups so that everyone is included equally.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/21/2020 07:57:43

Jul 21, 2020 - 8:07:19 AM
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banjoy

USA

9169 posts since 7/1/2006

It appears to me that since the unmarked police landed in Portland, the situation has escalated, not de-escalated.

No matter what political stripes you wear, an unnamed unidentified police force grabbing people off the streets -- when no one asked them to be there -- should raise some serious alarms. There are a multitude of ways to deal with what's happening. Is this what we really want?

Jul 21, 2020 - 9:05:24 AM
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5879 posts since 9/5/2006

you gotta remember ,, police are humans,, even with the best training. they are still human,, and we humans have our limits on what we can take,,,all of us.

these far left groups whose only intention is to disrupt and over throw the government have found a window through this BLM movement and they are going to exploit it to the max.  this is what they have been waiting on.   nothing in their actions has anything to do with racial justice.  its disrupt ,, cause kaos and  dig in as deep as  possible.  

Edited by - 1935tb-11 on 07/21/2020 09:10:28

Jul 21, 2020 - 10:09:05 AM

73410 posts since 5/9/2007

Big problems require everybody getting together to solve things.
It ain't rocket science if it doesn't involve NASA.

Jul 21, 2020 - 11:48:14 AM
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Tobus

USA

2383 posts since 11/17/2015

quote:
Originally posted by banjoy

It appears to me that since the unmarked police landed in Portland, the situation has escalated, not de-escalated.

No matter what political stripes you wear, an unnamed unidentified police force grabbing people off the streets -- when no one asked them to be there -- should raise some serious alarms. There are a multitude of ways to deal with what's happening. Is this what we really want?


No, of course nobody wants this.  But this is the result of continued violence, destruction, lawlessness, and inaction.  Surely anybody with a lick of sense would realize that this cannot be allowed to continue.  These rioters are causing the very thing they're protesting.  And again, they are doing it for the express purpose of turning themselves into victims for attention.  They are doing things which they know will cause a crackdown by police, because that's the reaction they are trying to evoke.  They are baiting law enforcement to act and then pretending to be shocked when law enforcement acts. 

There are indeed other ways to deal with what's happening.  It starts with discussion at a table of grown-ups, with a "cease-fire" just like any other negotiated end to military conflict.  But as long as people are burning things and destroying property, there is no basis for reasonable discussion.  No government, anywhere in the world, is going to simply sit back and watch its country burn.  To assume that the US government would do so is foolishly naive.

That said, I don't like the idea of unidentified agents "disappearing" citizens off the streets.  It remains to be seen what's really going on with that.  But at the very least, there does need to be some law enforcement happening, in a constitutional and transparent manner.

Jul 21, 2020 - 12:05:24 PM
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10340 posts since 2/22/2007

I'm fine with giving a beat-down to anyone throwing objects, setting fires, smashing windows, and other assorted acts of vandalism. But I saw no reason for them initiating violence against someone just standing there, regardless of what he was saying.

Jul 21, 2020 - 12:11:10 PM
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73410 posts since 5/9/2007

I believe they have a wide-open slate on however they want to treat people.
The fellow shot in the face with a gas can doesn't know who to sue.

Jul 21, 2020 - 12:17:01 PM
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banjoy

USA

9169 posts since 7/1/2006

I suppose it depends on how extensive all this stuff really is. It appears to remain isolated to specific areas, and as I understand, the entire leadership of Portland does not want the private police force there (is that correct? I think so). Maybe that's a starting point. I do not view what's going on in Portland (or Chicago, or...) as reflective of what's going on in the nation at large, not even close. They exist in their own weird bubble there, I know, my brother lives in Portland and sure is in a weird information bubble.

About a month ago there was a concerted effort of disinformation mostly through FaceBook that all theses AntiFa thugs were leaving Portland in buses and going to overrun all these tiny little communities in Oregon and cause all sorts of unspecified mayhem. It caused such alarm that all theses "patriots" gathered in these tiny rural places with guns and bats and whatnot to stop them. Of course no AntiFa showed up, it was entirely fabricated out of whole cloth but got thousands of people all riled up over there who bought into those lies. Those who bought into the misinformation were patting themselves on the back for stopping what was never real to begin with. It's stunning. So some forces are intentionally stirring the pot using disinformation, fear and hate. Sound familiar?

As I understand, the private force has been assembled by William Barr, our attorney general. That was first reported during that Washington DC kerfuffle. I do not trust that guy as far as I can spit. Why the need for a private force? Why not just call in the National Guard, which is better suited to this? I don't think questioning this is being naive. I think it's being realistic.

Weird times for sure. There are better solutions and approaches than what we're seeing take place in real time. Too many misinformation games being played.

Edited by - banjoy on 07/21/2020 12:19:30

Jul 21, 2020 - 12:20:23 PM
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3176 posts since 9/12/2016

As my--- If I woke up as the leader thread--- stated in full detail ---I would have cleaned it up, after the fourth of July .When riots were truly on a national level--
For everybody to come jump on let's work together band wagon--the personality of those commandeering the wagon needs to be very civil ---this forum time and again --proves some will never make --that effort






 

Edited by - Tractor1 on 07/21/2020 12:21:16

Jul 21, 2020 - 12:22:50 PM
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73410 posts since 5/9/2007

Cowards are afraid to use their real names.

Jul 21, 2020 - 12:39:45 PM
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Tobus

USA

2383 posts since 11/17/2015

quote:
Originally posted by banjoy

I suppose it depends on how extensive all this stuff really is. It appears to remain isolated to specific areas, and as I understand, the entire leadership of Portland does not want the private police force there (is that correct? I think so). Maybe that's a starting point. I do not view what's going on in Portland (or Chicago, or...) as reflective of what's going on in the nation at large, not even close. They exist in their own weird bubble there, I know, my brother lives in Portland and sure is in a weird information bubble.

About a month ago there was a concerted effort of disinformation mostly through FaceBook that all theses AntiFa thugs were leaving Portland in buses and going to overrun all these tiny little communities in Oregon and cause all sorts of unspecified mayhem. It caused such alarm that all theses "patriots" gathered in these tiny rural places with guns and bats and whatnot to stop them. Of course no AntiFa showed up, it was entirely fabricated out of whole cloth but got thousands of people all riled up over there who bought into those lies. Those who bought into the misinformation were patting themselves on the back for stopping what was never real to begin with. It's stunning. So some forces are intentionally stirring the pot using disinformation, fear and hate. Sound familiar?

As I understand, the private force has been assembled by William Barr, our attorney general. That was first reported during that Washington DC kerfuffle. I do not trust that guy as far as I can spit. Why the need for a private force? Why not just call in the National Guard, which is better suited to this? I don't think questioning this is being naive. I think it's being realistic.

Weird times for sure. There are better solutions and approaches than what we're seeing take place in real time. Too many misinformation games being played.


Interesting that you're calling it a "private" force when it actually consists of federal law enforcement agents from multiple agencies.  IMHO, they are better suited to police actions than the National Guard.  The NG is not trained for that, so far as I know.  They are not sworn law enforcement officers, either.  The NG, at best, could be temporarily deputized to a law enforcement agency (the legality would be interesting), but most likely would have to be called into service by Congress as the organized militia in their constitutional role for executing the Laws of the Union and suppressing insurrections.  Unfortunately, a certain chamber of Congress is unlikely to do that.  So using existing federal law enforcement agencies within their existing roles to protect federal property seems to be the best available tool.

You're right about Portland being its own weird bubble.  I was there a few years ago for a week-long engineering meeting and walked a lot through downtown.  In fact, where a lot of this violence is happening is exactly where I was.  I remember the square being full of people, all screaming their own personal agendas on megaphones.  Every evening crowds of people would show up, as if they were shopping around for the best screamer to join in with.  At that time, the city was going downhill with all the homeless kids camped out everywhere, but was still somewhat safe to walk around in.  No way I'd want to be there these days, though.  People have lost their damn minds.

Jul 21, 2020 - 12:51:41 PM
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banjoy

USA

9169 posts since 7/1/2006

Tobus

Was I wrong about the heat getting turned up after these forces showed up? It seems their appearance has escalated things and made it far worse. Again, just looking in from the outside, may be hard to get a clear picture.

As far as calling them "private" I guess I'm just picking up on the labels applied through reporting. I personally don't see unmarked, unidentified police force as a good thing. What is to stop some mega-funded left-or-right nutjobs from doing the same thing? I mean, they're using freaking minivans to haul people off. Any moron with bucks can buy minivans and police-style outfits and weapons. What makes this NOT okay is this can -- and will -- open the door to all sorts of spin off copycats. And who will be in "control" then? And how will the people know which is real?

This is not a farfetched notion. Not at all. The potential for abuse by well-funded copycats is there right now. If this practice does not stop, this will happen sooner or later.

I appreciate the back and forth. I think we're far closer in our thinking than appears to be apart. Just different angles on the same thing. For real solutions to happen, it's going to take all points of view chiming in, for we are all describing the very same events from diverse vantage points. Real solutions to these complex social issues will not come from one point of view, but from many. Anything short of that will most likely fail.

Thanks for your POV, Tobus, makes as much sense to me as anything else.

Jul 21, 2020 - 12:57:12 PM

10910 posts since 1/15/2005

quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I'm fine with giving a beat-down to anyone throwing objects, setting fires, smashing windows, and other assorted acts of vandalism. But I saw no reason for them initiating violence against someone just standing there, regardless of what he was saying.


I agree Bill.  I would not have hit the guy with a baton, but I totally agree with Tobin that his idea to go into that hornet's nest and confront the federal agents was idiotic.  He was trying make a statement and he sure made it in a very painful way.  What did he think he was going to accomplish?  When that kind of violence is going on, in my opinion, there is no reason for anyone trying to be peaceful to be there as they are just as easily be mistaken for those who are causing the mayhem.  It should not be the case, but it is.  

Jul 21, 2020 - 1:03:24 PM

10340 posts since 2/22/2007

We are told that Mr. David refused pain medication when they set his hand. And, he did not seem to react to several blows from a baton. I do wonder if the guy feels pain? Was that officer pulling his punches? That part of the video was strange to watch, as most people cannot just ignore a blow from a baton.

Jul 21, 2020 - 1:06:13 PM

10910 posts since 1/15/2005

quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

We are told that Mr. David refused pain medication when they set his hand. And, he did not seem to react to several blows from a baton. I do wonder if the guy feels pain? Was that officer pulling his punches? That part of the video was strange to watch, as most people cannot just ignore a blow from a baton.


Yes .... that was very odd.

Jul 21, 2020 - 1:07:19 PM

Tobus

USA

2383 posts since 11/17/2015

Yes, copycats could very well do this sort of thing.  But to be fair, they already exist out there and impersonate actual uniformed police officers all the time, as well as military.  The uniform doesn't automatically make a difference in that regard.  And even regular police often use unmarked vans for undercover work. 

It does seem odd for them to be using soccer mom type minivans for this, but on the flip side, it may make good tactical sense.  If your objective is to surveil a person who is suspected of engaging in rioting, and to be able to surprise them and arrest them at an opportune moment, using unmarked vehicles is wiser than cruising around town in a big police van with obvious markings.  The element of surprise is enhanced by using civilian vehicles, just as undercover cops do every day.

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