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Again more B&D NPUs coming to Market

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Jul 12, 2020 - 6:46:03 AM
626 posts since 5/4/2014

Put the arguments about a slow market to bed. So far this year I’ve moved or help place over $100k worth of higher end collector grade stock. Collectors are still shopping, and not at firesale prices either! So why are sellers lowballing themselves to move stock? There is still a supply and demand curve, but I feel holdouts are driving prices down on antsy sellers. I now have more available including a Reino Archtop with 12” head and a deep rimmed ‘29 tenor with all the features owners have come to appreciate. Tire kickers and low-ballers will and should continue to be ignored!

Edited by - banjotrader on 07/12/2020 06:47:10

Jul 12, 2020 - 8:15:27 AM

373 posts since 5/29/2015

The "I wouldn't pay that much for a banjo" mentality among blue-collar low income people makes it hard to imagine that others making a quarter million a year WILL pay that much.

Also, much of the "slow market" talk comes from individuals who put their banjo on BH or ebay priced at or above what the big dealers (who do set up, allow returns, and a warranty, and have a postive reputation) ask and a week later their banjo is still unsold. They have no idea that it takes six months to a year to move many items.

Edited by - Banner Blue on 07/12/2020 08:16:19

Jul 12, 2020 - 8:57:24 AM
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7726 posts since 8/28/2013

Anyone who collects the really expensive and rare banjos will always have more resources and a steadier income (they couldn't collect them if they didn't) than the majority of people who can only wish. Even in the Great Depression, a person, could and many did,buy a 16 cylinder Cadillac or a Duesenberg with a custom body.

The most expensive banjos, like NPUs and Pre-war Mastertones will always have a market, and a very expensive one. But for the slightly lesser banjos, not so much. When times are tough, a Paramount, for example, will always drop in value.

I think you are wrong when you accuse sellers of giving in to "lowballers." A seller has to make money somehow, and when buyers aren't there, sometimes he has to lower his expectations. Not all sellers have Pre-wars or NPUs in stock to begin with, so thier clientele is not the same, anyway.

Jul 12, 2020 - 9:27:04 AM

626 posts since 5/4/2014

I should clarify and fits your point. Im seeing low/mid level banjos going for cheap as you say but trying to apply those trends to collector markets. Its typical to hear the “just as good as” arguments to drive prices down as well. Those who have never touched them seem to relate only to the utilitarian aspect rather than the art features of the instrument.

Edited by - banjotrader on 07/12/2020 09:28:25

Jul 12, 2020 - 12:12:59 PM
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13334 posts since 10/30/2008

I've been waiting all through this pandemic to see prices lowered on some NICE old banjos I would like to buy. It ain't happening. I've told any number of sellers with what I consider high prices to let me know if they NEED to sell, I have cash ready for a reduced price. Not one even cared to follow up. Most said "I'll just keep it."

I do not agree there's a lot of low pricing in the better bluegrass instruments.

Jul 12, 2020 - 12:36:25 PM
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KCJones

USA

936 posts since 8/30/2012

When trillions of dollars are added to a fiat currency supply, conjured from thin air, physical goods with finite supply will increase in value relative to that currency.

Jul 12, 2020 - 12:39:13 PM

2253 posts since 10/17/2013
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by The Old Timer

I've been waiting all through this pandemic to see prices lowered on some NICE old banjos I would like to buy. It ain't happening. I've told any number of sellers with what I consider high prices to let me know if they NEED to sell, I have cash ready for a reduced price. Not one even cared to follow up. Most said "I'll just keep it."

I do not agree there's a lot of low pricing in the better bluegrass instruments.


You are correct. I can think of a few examples that have remained high, pandemic or no pandemic. And until you have “that” money, you ain’t getting NO banjo!

 

I also agree with George. 

Most sellers are willing to negotiate a bit when it comes to pleasing the customer. Very few businesses would survive if they forced persons to always pay the same price.

 There is a close tie between “customer appreciation” and business success. Those who refuse to follow that model are few, but they’re out there. 

People always FLOCK to businesses that not only have what they want, but also at a price they can afford. 

 

I think the main issue with the whole NPU banjo glorification, is that some persons (not necessarily the OP), have set it on an unreachable, unattainable pedestal. 

 I might very well end up owning one someday, but until that time, I will say only this: It is a very fancy banjo, but it is still just a fancy banjo. It cannot be more than a fancy banjo. It cannot be worth more than personal friendship. 

Edited by - okbluegrassbanjopicker on 07/12/2020 12:59:49

Jul 12, 2020 - 1:06:17 PM

2253 posts since 10/17/2013
Online Now

True low-ballers do not buy instruments, because they know that the seller would never accept their offer, no matter how sad the lowballer’s story.

I think that the so-called “lowballers” have just enough to make the sellers be happy, and sell the said merchandise.

Any seller foolish enough to actually lowball himself, would find his business gone in short order. 

 It is the same as selling an item for less than the cost of shipping.

 The point of selling is to make a profit; maybe not always what you had in mind, but a profit nonetheless.  

Edited by - okbluegrassbanjopicker on 07/12/2020 13:17:18

Jul 12, 2020 - 5:52:16 PM
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979 posts since 12/8/2006

Sometimes the point of selling is not to make a profit but to move collections (amassments?) of instruments acquired over the years and to 'clear the clutter' (wife's opinion) or as I have been heard to say "Relinquish the care to a responsible new party". I am selling many of my banjos at less than I paid for them and that after putting them in playable condition. I'm not the only one doing this. Collections are being sold as a lot before they get dumped at a garage sale by some geezers widow (Mine?).

Jul 13, 2020 - 7:08:49 AM

7726 posts since 8/28/2013

quote:
Originally posted by Shop the Folk

Sometimes the point of selling is not to make a profit but to move collections (amassments?) of instruments acquired over the years and to 'clear the clutter' (wife's opinion) or as I have been heard to say "Relinquish the care to a responsible new party". I am selling many of my banjos at less than I paid for them and that after putting them in playable condition. I'm not the only one doing this. Collections are being sold as a lot before they get dumped at a garage sale by some geezers widow (Mine?).


Doesn't that indicate that these banjos have, in fact, fallen somewhat in perceived value?

Jul 13, 2020 - 7:24:40 AM

626 posts since 5/4/2014

No, I can 100% validate to you that selling prices continue to be in the $8K-$10K for tenors, and higher for plectrum/5strings.
Let me re-iterate, what the low/mid-end markets are doing can't be translated into the collector market. However, I've seen some mid-high end sellers lowball their investments due to buyer sentiments of the market; but was not necessary.  A desperation sale, isnt indicative of market prices.

Edited by - banjotrader on 07/13/2020 07:25:51

Jul 13, 2020 - 7:41:47 AM

979 posts since 12/8/2006

Agreed that the high-end is strong (argue a bit about plectrums, except for conversion). My point only was that not all sales are "for profit". And, yes, that has driven lower end banjos prices lower.

Jul 13, 2020 - 7:48:58 AM

626 posts since 5/4/2014

Plectrum/5String component here is specific to B&D NPU Market.

Jul 13, 2020 - 7:50:41 AM
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5598 posts since 9/21/2007

Someone should open up a chain of Shakey's style pizza parlors or Mustache bars-- that would drive prices up and revitalize the market demand for fakes/upgrades.

It would also be good for Styrofoam futures. (sarcasm font) ;-)

Jul 13, 2020 - 7:58:08 AM

626 posts since 5/4/2014

haha. Based on the most recent research on that topic Joel, ~20-30% of the NPUs distributed over the years out of Europe and a few American makers would fall into that fake market. They justifiably can't bring original levels.

Jul 13, 2020 - 8:22:31 AM

5598 posts since 9/21/2007

I know I kid around about it, but in all seriousness...

How many of the "Collectors" that are interested in these NPU Bacons have a history or association with Shakey's pizza or a Mustache type bar?

Are there a lot of Gen X people interested in high end plectrum or tenor banjos? What about younger?

Is this a mummer thing?

What is the target demographic these?

Jul 13, 2020 - 8:38:34 AM

626 posts since 5/4/2014

All the banjos I've sold in the last 10years, not one knows anything about Shakey's/Mustache. Irish musicians, Bluegrass, New Jazz, etc..

Jul 13, 2020 - 11:05:03 AM

5598 posts since 9/21/2007

That is good!

Interesting that bluegrassers are wanting to play NPU banjos. It does not really fit the image.

Jul 13, 2020 - 11:09:53 AM

626 posts since 5/4/2014

not that 5strings are all that common, but one of the foremost players is on a shortlist for one, and also check this out:
youtube.com/watch?v=K0dHgrBD8MA
The last one that sold went for $20K+

Jul 13, 2020 - 11:16:07 AM

7726 posts since 8/28/2013

quote:
Originally posted by banjotrader

No, I can 100% validate to you that selling prices continue to be in the $8K-$10K for tenors, and higher for plectrum/5strings.
Let me re-iterate, what the low/mid-end markets are doing can't be translated into the collector market. However, I've seen some mid-high end sellers lowball their investments due to buyer sentiments of the market; but was not necessary.  A desperation sale, isnt indicative of market prices.


I disagree that a "desperation sale" has anything to do with market prices. If there was a really robust market, sellers wouldn't be so desperate,

Jul 13, 2020 - 11:19:39 AM

626 posts since 5/4/2014

that made no sense!  Collector markets don't always sell like a commodity.  If someone chooses to sell quick, they'll sell well below market value.

Edited by - banjotrader on 07/13/2020 11:22:15

Jul 13, 2020 - 8:59:27 PM

979 posts since 12/8/2006

One is desperate when one is 78 with 200 banjos, believe me.

Jul 14, 2020 - 7:54:27 PM
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stanger

USA

7337 posts since 9/29/2004

quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks

That is good!

Interesting that bluegrassers are wanting to play NPU banjos. It does not really fit the image.


A B&D Silver Bell #1 was my primary bluegrass banjo for 13 years. 

I got that comment a lot, but a lot of Gibson players sure liked my banjo. 

regards,

stanger

Jul 20, 2020 - 2:46:55 PM

979 posts since 12/8/2006

Hey Mike, Ever put gut on that B&D? I did to sell Big Jim's #1. Sold to a classic player in 30 secs. Paul

Jul 23, 2020 - 2:41:06 PM

Cleitus

New Zealand

376 posts since 6/10/2011

quote:
Originally posted by Shop the Folk

One is desperate when one is 78 with 200 banjos, believe me.


I would have thought very happy!! They will tear my banjos out of my cold dead hands!!

Jul 23, 2020 - 2:45:43 PM

Cleitus

New Zealand

376 posts since 6/10/2011

quote:
Originally posted by stanger
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks

That is good!

Interesting that bluegrassers are wanting to play NPU banjos. It does not really fit the image.


A B&D Silver Bell #1 was my primary bluegrass banjo for 13 years. 

I got that comment a lot, but a lot of Gibson players sure liked my banjo. 

regards,

stanger


I tried a B & D silver bell in a local shop recently and was impressed with the sound and the way it 'spoke' so quickly - if I'd been looking for a good bluegrass one it would easily have been a contender. Could be they are the really good 'unknowns' of the bluegrass world

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